142 réponses à ce sujet

[Massefeckt]

bsbcaer wrote...

there's also another saying you may want to take into account:  "Innovate or die"

How well did that work for the Deus Ex series? In fact most series that make wholesale changes don't do so well. I'm in the UK so unfortunately can't get in on the Hate or Love. The changes don't fill me with hope but I'll give it a go. The most worrying thing I've seen(not here just on the net) isn't people complaining about changes but complaining that the game just isn't any good and lacks personality, depth and it's a chore to play. Fingers crossed it's not as bad as I've read.

[Shandyr]

Ok here's an example for those of you who know the King's Quest Series by Sierra.

In my eyes you can compare the situation with King's Quest Part 1 to 7
with the sequel King's Quest 8.

While King's Quest 8 was, regarded alone, a good game I think people who loved and enjoyed the prequels didnt necessarily like King's Quest 8.

As for my situation, i'm actually glad that I'm in Europe and have been able to read all these reviews, because in 40 minutes (when the game unlocks in Germany) I know I can expect a great stand-alone game (just like I actually could enjoy King's Quest 8 back then).

However I think, if I had played DA2 directly after DA:O I would have been disappointed.
(ONLY judging from the demo and those negative reviews so far)

[pumpkinman13]

PurpleJesus wrote...
This new game is not an extension of the original; it is for all purposes a new
game leveraging the title of another game. 

I started thinking if I compiled a list of what is different in this game, it
would exceed what is the same from DAO.

No race options, different combat, different art and animation, missing
classes. Etc.

And that is a problem, when you brand a product, the point of that is to convey
a recognizable experience with a product. 

When I see golden arches I know I can get a burger.  If I see a check mark
swish, good chance I can buy running shoes. And when I see Bioware Dragon age, I
also have expectation based on previous branding, and product experience. 

Bull. Absolute total bull. It's set in the same world, the same religion, the same social, cultural and moral struggles, eg Chantry oppression, Templars vs. Mages, Elves being looked down upon etc.

No race options? The Witcher delivered a fantastic RPG experience and you couldn't even design what your character looked like.

Different fighting? It's sped up and looks more flashy. Apart from that it is Origins combat.

Different art and animation? It looks way more styalised and unique and actually looks like a distinctive design theme, rather than the generic baldurian UI of Origins. Yeah BG was great. But I want Dragon Age, not Baldur's Gate 3. I think THAT is the real problem. Ultimately these hardcore RPG fans don't want Dragon Age 2, they wan't a new Baldur's Gate title.

You go to a golden arches, but you don't know if your burger is going to be as tasty or good or enjoyable as the one you got from the last golden arches elsewhere.

[RohanD]

Totally agree with the OP. Dragon Age 2 has destroyed the strong brand which Dragon Age: Origins created. It shows that the current marketing department (undeniably EA's hirings) is at total odds with the product they are trying to sell. Look at Silverman, at how he's acted, what he's said ("Push a buttin' something awesum happins, so buttin, awesum!"). It's like he was trying to sell a Madden game. Well, this ain't sports or CoD man, this is high fantasy and it has an established fanbase who generally know what they like, and it seems for the majority, DA2 ain't it.

[tanerb123]

i think console sales will be good but PC will be less that satisfactory

[kertitorpe]

I see no mismanagement of customer expectation, but maybe mismanagement of fanbase. The only "fault" of the game is that it is clearly targeted a different audience than the predecessor. It was rather shifting than broadening. But from day 1 BioWare was clear about the changes, they even put out a demo, for which I'm grateful, anyone who followed the development got what they promised. I agree with the title "Dragon Age 2" being a marketing failure, it happens...

Modifié par kertitorpe, 09 mars 2011 - 10:40 .

[bsbcaer]

Massefeckt wrote...

bsbcaer wrote...

there's also another saying you may want to take into account:  "Innovate or die"

How well did that work for the Deus Ex series? In fact most series that make wholesale changes don't do so well. I'm in the UK so unfortunately can't get in on the Hate or Love. The changes don't fill me with hope but I'll give it a go. The most worrying thing I've seen(not here just on the net) isn't people complaining about changes but complaining that the game just isn't any good and lacks personality, depth and it's a chore to play. Fingers crossed it's not as bad as I've read.

Re; Deux Ex.  I don't know, I've never played any of the series, is it good?

from what I've seen, I don't think that that DA2 made "wholesale changes."  To me, wholesale changes (to combat for example) would be scrapping the entire combat system and replacing it with some sort of card based combat.

I hope that you enjoy DA2.  If you're interested in seeing how others are playing it, I'd recommend watching Toegoeff's "Let's Play Dragon Age 2"  (at least some parts if you want to avoid some spoilers)

[AlanC9]

Maybe Bio's focus groups told them that most gamers thought Dragon Age meant that game with the clunky combat and bad art.

[PinkysPain]

pumpkinman13 wrote...
Different fighting? It's sped up and looks more flashy. Apart from that it is Origins combat.

The add spawns are different. The lack of FF in all but nightmare mode is different ... a mode which shares a failing with higher difficulties in ME2, only a couple of character builds can actually work well. Last but not least, of course the camera is different.

Then there is the dialogue wheel and the straight jacket protoganist/storytelling (nothing makes you identify with a character like a time jump during which he takes all kind of actions you have no power over) and the uninspired level design.

[mcha82]

I really don't understand why they called this game Dragon Age 2, it's just so different from origins, it's more of a reboot then a sequel. I'm not trying to offend anyone, I'm not saying it's better or worse, but it is a totally different game.

Why didn't they stick with Dragon Age: Exodus? or Dragon Age: The Legend? or Dragon Age: The Champion?

[FulfilledDeer]

Okay bsbcaer, you have me there. The world hasn't changed much. I think what he was trying to hint at is the approach to the game changed. It went from a sort of tribute to Baldur's Gate in a sense, to "screw all that noise, I want AWESOME!!!!!". Did I want DA: II to be Baldur's Gate 3? Only if you're going to say DA:O was Baldur's Gate 2.5.

[Massefeckt]

bsbcaer wrote...

Massefeckt wrote...

bsbcaer wrote...

there's also another saying you may want to take into account:  "Innovate or die"

How well did that work for the Deus Ex series? In fact most series that make wholesale changes don't do so well. I'm in the UK so unfortunately can't get in on the Hate or Love. The changes don't fill me with hope but I'll give it a go. The most worrying thing I've seen(not here just on the net) isn't people complaining about changes but complaining that the game just isn't any good and lacks personality, depth and it's a chore to play. Fingers crossed it's not as bad as I've read.

Re; Deux Ex.  I don't know, I've never played any of the series, is it good?

from what I've seen, I don't think that that DA2 made "wholesale changes."  To me, wholesale changes (to combat for example) would be scrapping the entire combat system and replacing it with some sort of card based combat.

I hope that you enjoy DA2.  If you're interested in seeing how others are playing it, I'd recommend watching Toegoeff's "Let's Play Dragon Age 2"  (at least some parts if you want to avoid some spoilers)

The original DX was very good but extremley old now so I imagine would be difficult to go back to for anyone who hadn't played it the first time around. The reason I mentioned it was alot of the reaction here seems to reflect what happened with it's sequel DX Invisible War.

It went from PC only to Xbox/PC, had a huge amount of loading screens and was dubbed "Dumbed Down". There was talk of "innovation" and "streamlining" of controls. Alot of the language used seems to be the same, as well as people saying that IW may not be a terrible game but it isn't a DX game.

Basically they turned their back on the PC market for the more profitable console market. That alone isn't unforgivable PC gaming can be difficult to make money in. But the game was terrible and pretty much ended the series until very recently where they have seemingly(it's not out till August) gone back to the original gameplay style.

Are we allowed to post reviews here? If not please delete.

http://www.eurogamer...n-age-ii-review

This review seems to address many of the negatives but still gives the game a high score, saying that most of the negatives disappear the further into the game you get. Would those of you playing say this is accurate?

[Haexpane]

bsbcaer wrote...

Massefeckt wrote...

bsbcaer wrote...

there's also another saying you may want to take into account:  "Innovate or die"

How well did that work for the Deus Ex series? In fact most series that make wholesale changes don't do so well. I'm in the UK so unfortunately can't get in on the Hate or Love. The changes don't fill me with hope but I'll give it a go. The most worrying thing I've seen(not here just on the net) isn't people complaining about changes but complaining that the game just isn't any good and lacks personality, depth and it's a chore to play. Fingers crossed it's not as bad as I've read.

Re; Deux Ex.  I don't know, I've never played any of the series, is it good?
 

Deus Ex is one of the greatest games ever made.  Deus Ex: invisble war is boring garbage that was also "Streamlined" and "Press X to watch something AWESOME happen"

It's one of the most hated sequels in all of PC gaming.

[Paul Sedgmore]

bsbcaer wrote...

Massefeckt wrote...

bsbcaer wrote...

there's also another saying you may want to take into account:  "Innovate or die"

How well did that work for the Deus Ex series? In fact most series that make wholesale changes don't do so well. I'm in the UK so unfortunately can't get in on the Hate or Love. The changes don't fill me with hope but I'll give it a go. The most worrying thing I've seen(not here just on the net) isn't people complaining about changes but complaining that the game just isn't any good and lacks personality, depth and it's a chore to play. Fingers crossed it's not as bad as I've read.

Re; Deux Ex.  I don't know, I've never played any of the series, is it good?

from what I've seen, I don't think that that DA2 made "wholesale changes."  To me, wholesale changes (to combat for example) would be scrapping the entire combat system and replacing it with some sort of card based combat.

I hope that you enjoy DA2.  If you're interested in seeing how others are playing it, I'd recommend watching Toegoeff's "Let's Play Dragon Age 2"  (at least some parts if you want to avoid some spoilers)

Deus Ex is very good 2 less so, but the fact that it has taken so long to get another game in the franchise has nothing to do with Deus Ex 2 not being liked by the fans but more to do with the studio closing down in large part to do with another franchise.

As for those that say DA2 should have been a differenct IP, why? DA2 is set in the some world, a different area yes but the same world so it is part of the Dragon Age franchise. To say any different you would have to say that World of Warcraft isn't in the Warcraft franchise. It isn't a sequal and shouldn't have been called DA2 but then that was most likely due to the marketing department's decision as people like to buy sequals.

[Lee T]

I agree with the OP, by calling it Dragon Age 2 they implied a successor which it is not.

But I think the mismanagement in communication actually began with the first.

Do you remember the "cool" trailer showing a warden with eyes burning with blue flames killing darkswpawn action style with Marylin Manson's New **** in the backgournd. When I saw that trailer I thought "What the hell do they think they're doing, nothing in that trailer will be in the final game, not the cool moves, not the action style camera direction, and certainly not Marylin Manson, this is completely misleading" and it was, I believe, to a lot of people who bought the game and only played an hour. In fact those very people are probably the guys Mike Laidlaw's worried about in just about each of his public appearance talking about the game.

Now if you look at that trailer with DA2 in mind it's no longer misleading, in fact the DA2 commercial as a lot in common with it, except that this time it's in the game.

Bioware seems to be between a rock and hard place. They got the attention of the cool kids and they don't want to loose it so they're trying to be cool without loosing the nerd's trust. I genuinely hope they succeed.

There's only thing I'm sure. I bought Bioware games blind until now (sometimes in multiple copies, PC/Console and normal + special edition when I couldn't get the special edition first). I was very disapointed by ME2 (which I had preordered twice, one copy in my native language and one in english for the voice actors) but decided to trust them for DA2 because of the quality I could find in DAO. I didn't cancel my preorder (I don't trust others opinion to judge my own experience of the game) but should I be disapointed again then Bioware we'll fall into my Bargain bin publisher category and I really hope I won't have to.

[CJKenley]

Biff leBoofe
wrote...

Mismanagement of customer expectation? To ask an honest question, have you followed the development of this
game?

...

For at least the last 6 months they have also been discussing that there would be "no race options, different
combat, different art and animation, missing classes.
Etc."

Bioware has provided ample information about the direction they took DA2 in for anyone willing to search "Dragon Age 2" in Google. By paying attention to the previews etc, it looked like DA2 might not be exactly my cup of tea, so I've held off on purchasing it until I could read some reviews and get some feedback. If I purchase the game and end up not
liking elements of it, that's not Bioware's fault because they have been nothing but upfront about DA2.

If you didn't know that Bioware planned to do things differently that DA:O, you shouldn't cry to the forums about not buying a game you didn't research before purchasing. If you knew the direction they took the game in before purchasing it and still complained on the forums then you're just a whiner.

[Edited formatting because this forum doesn't like Open Office]

Modifié par CJKenley, 09 mars 2011 - 11:13 .

[TokenBlack]

pumpkinman13 wrote...

Bull. Absolute total bull. It's set in the same world, the same religion, the same social, cultural and moral struggles, eg Chantry oppression, Templars vs. Mages, Elves being looked down upon etc.

There are also a lot of games set in the forgotten realms, yet aren't
related to one another. The fact that it's in the same universe/time
doesn't make it a sequel.

pumpkinman13 wrote...
No race options? The Witcher delivered a fantastic RPG experience and you couldn't even design what your character looked like.

Different game. already established IP.....Origins proved that DA is capable of using several races, bioware just chose not to do it this time around, so for me, that is a downgrade.

pumpkinman13 wrote...
Different fighting? It's sped up and looks more flashy. Apart from that it is Origins combat.

.....Origins combat?......not realy dude. Now it's crapy on the inside and shiny on the outside like most other console RPG combat. Before it was crapy on the outside, but shiny on the inside....for obvious reasons I guess a lot of the consoleros found that a bit disgusting.

pumpkinman13 wrote...
Different art and animation? It looks way more styalised and unique and actually looks like a distinctive design theme, rather than the generic baldurian UI of Origins.

A change, that I didn't mind realy, but then again bioware was never realy good at visuals. They always have great concept art, but it rarely translates well to the game.....not that the games look bad, but they never look so amazingly awesome that I would praise them for it

pumpkinman13 wrote...
You go to a golden arches, but you don't know if your burger is going to be as tasty or good or enjoyable as the one you got from the last golden arches elsewhere.

yes, in fact you do......the Arches have the strictest conformity rules, all burgers taste the same. Seriously, I'm not kidding.



Point being, regardeless if you like the game or not, you have to admit, that it's is realy substantialy different to Origins. And not everone is happy with these changes.

Myself, I knew what they were going for, and disliked it when I first read it. Then I said to myself, "it's BIOWARE they always make good games" and preordered the Signature Edition for PC as soon as it was available.....Then I played the demo, heared the game will be only 30hrs for the main quest and canceled the preorder.

I was hoping for a slight alteration of a few gameplay mechanics, but this is like a fresh start in a different direction.....kinda like Star Wars sequels and prequels or even better the two back to back HULK movies. It might not be bad, but certainly not what I expected or liked.

I'll get it for PS3 eventually for a little slashing fun on the couch, but this isn't a game I'd spend hundreds of hours with like I did with DA:O (and that's with only one completed play through).

Modifié par TokenBlack, 09 mars 2011 - 11:26 .

[Haexpane]

bsbcaer wrote...

Haexpane wrote...

bsbcaer wrote...
 

Funny...I don't remember anyone saying that Dragon Age 2 is the "spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate."  

How quickly we forget. 

EDIT O I C how you were being clever there about DA2 vs. DAO.  But we're talking the "Dragon Age Franchise"

Here is one example

“The Baldur’s Gate and Dungeons and Dragons property is of course
controlled by Atari, and owned originally by Hasbro, so it’s a
complicated, convoluted way of getting there. For us it’s more a
function of… because we weren’t in a position to do Baldur’s Gate… hey
well let’s create our own! That’s effectively what this is. It’s funny,
we took a page from Fallout, not Fallout 3 but Fallout 1. Fallout 1 was
basically a game called Wasteland – that was the spiritual successor to
Wasteland.”

Not being clever at all.  Djackson claimed that the game (DA 2) was touted as the "spiritual successor to Baldur's gate" and it was not touted as that at all. 

Regarding the paragraph you provided.  Would you mind providing a source for that so I can read the whole piece?  To me (provided Im reading it correctly), it seems that it's referring to the first game.  If you argue that it's talking about the franchise, well I read it as referring to the world of Baldur's Gate rather than the game itself and those are two different beasts...

Wait, are you still going on about how they only meant DAO and not DA2? We already gave you
that dried up bone.

It's also a very disingenuous point intended to go
off on a semantics debate... not taking the bait.

[Haexpane]

Someone had to go and bring up Marilyn Manson? Why are you trying to depress us!

[DocDoomII]

still waiting for the game. italian mail is terribly slow.

[Ecaiki]

Lee T wrote...

I agree with the OP, by calling it Dragon Age 2 they implied a successor which it is not.

Final Fantasy would like a word with you.

If I had to compare what they've done here with anything, I'd compare it to Westwood's old Legend of Kyrandia series.  In the first game you're Brandon, in the second game you're Zanthia, and in the third you're Malcolm.  Three games set in the same world, using a sequal style, yet about three totally different people.

TokenBlack wrote...

.....Origins combat?......not realy dude. Now it's crapy on the inside and shiny on the outside like most
other console RPG combat. Before it was crapy on the outside, but shiny on the inside....for obvious reasons I guess a lot of the consoleros found that a bit disgusting.

Now this I gotta hear, just what is this inner shine you refer to?

Point being, regardeless if you like the game or not, you have to admit, that it's is realy substantialy different to Origins. And not everone is happy with these changes.

I suppose it would seem that way, if you were hyper-focusing on only what they changed.

Edit: dammit, fix the quote mangling please Bioware!  <_<

Modifié par Ecaiki, 10 mars 2011 - 12:26 .

[randallman]

Machines Are Us wrote...

Although I can't slate or praise the game yet, I do agree that a lot of this anger would have been lessened had they not advertised it as a sequel.

Had they advertised it as "Dragon Age: The Champion" and specifically stated that it was a different game set in the Dragon Age universe then a lot of peoples arguments would fall flat.

B$... We'd still be 'let down' by the changes irrespective of the title.  The mere utterance of 'Dragon Age' in the title would compell the fans of the 1st installment to come out and buy it and subsequently be let down.

Lets face it.  We wanted DA2 to be as good as DA and it simply isn't.

[Haexpane]

bsbcaer wrote...

Haexpane wrote...

bsbcaer wrote...

 

there's also another saying you may want to take into account:  "Innovate or die"

and when you fail to innovate, just duct tape 4 iphones together and call it a "REVOLUTION"

and how many people went out and bought Ipads...you have to give credit to apple where credit is due, they've certainly branded things and have become rather omnipresent within American society (even if the iphone is no longer the top 3G/4G phone OS on the market)

rather than starting a new thread that Im sure would be locked soon, I have to ask:  How many people are genuinely upset enough with the game that they returned it for a refund? 

I am not upset, just mildly disappointed.  I'm allowed that I think.

People didn't buy the Ipad 1, SHEEP bought it

[Haexpane]

RohanD wrote...

Totally agree with the OP. Dragon Age 2 has destroyed the strong brand which Dragon Age: Origins created. It shows that the current marketing department (undeniably EA's hirings) is at total odds with the product they are trying to sell. Look at Silverman, at how he's acted, what he's said ("Push a buttin' something awesum happins, so buttin, awesum!").  .

Developers have also stated they wanted a game that was "dark and gritty" and had you "push a button to make something awesome happen".  Everyone is on board with how DA2 came out, Marketing didn't design this game.  

DA2 is what the devs wanted it to be.  Blamestorming is not the solution

[Haexpane]

randallman wrote...

Machines Are Us wrote...

Although I can't slate or praise the game yet, I do agree that a lot of this anger would have been lessened had they not advertised it as a sequel.

Had they advertised it as "Dragon Age: The Champion" and specifically stated that it was a different game set in the Dragon Age universe then a lot of peoples arguments would fall flat.

B$... We'd still be 'let down' by the changes irrespective of the title.  The mere utterance of 'Dragon Age' in the title would compell the fans of the 1st installment to come out and buy it and subsequently be let down.

Lets face it.  We wanted DA2 to be as good as DA and it simply isn't.

What if they had called it

             Dragon Age: Hawkeing for Booty!  
             Press A to make something AWESOME happen

Then I'd think expectations were being managed.