273 réponses à ce sujet

[jds1bio]

For a seemingly successful well-reviewed multi-platform release, why are the Dragon Age II forum discussions
particularly brutal right now?  I hope the answer I offer proves to be of interest to gamers, Bioware, and EA.


Bioware has mentioned in pre-release interviews that based on the gameplay feedback data collected from the first game, some gameplay features were changed or removed in the second game. While this may correlate sensibly with the feeback data collected, many gamers are disclosing in the forums that they liked having the now-removed gameplay features available to them. Just their presence markedly enhanced their perceived experience with the game, even if the gamers did not end up actively using these features during their particular playthrough(s).  So for all the gameplay feedback that was uploaded to Bioware regarding Dragon Age: Origins, and considered in crafting the gameplay of the second game, only now through the Dragon Age II reviews and the forum posters are the actual perceptions of the Dragon Age gameplay experience being disclosed by gamers.  But why now?  Was something missed?  Misunderstood?  Ignored?
  

Well, to use a baseball analogy (sorry non-sportsfans), any baseball fan can tell you that a team that pays attention solely to stats while trying to play keep-up with the cross-town rival won't get to the big game.  Perhaps this is what has happened with the development of DA2 - DA2 being the feedback-stat-inspired efficiently-crafted 90-game playoff-bound winner (reflected in gamer sites' review scores and some gamer accounts), but not like the legendary World Series teams of yesteryear (DAO, etc.), and doesn't keep pace with the World Series winner that last year's cross-town rival (ME2) was. So after Opening Day, when fans feel that their teams have no chance to match up with their team's legends, or their rivals, they take it hard.  And despite there being a playoff-bound season ahead, they're still going to let you know about it, sometimes brutally. 

Now imagine trying to market such a team to these fans, let's review:

First, Sebastian was a nice early pre-order incentive, and good to be available on release date for everyone, but
should not have been marketed as release date DLC.  DLC, in the minds of gamers, still implies post-game extension, and post-game extension on release date makes no logical sense to anyone except in terms of wanting to make more money right away (almost to say that the price of admission wasn't already enough).  Perhaps an unfair assumption, but understanding the expectation of the gamer and framing this more favorably to the gamer would have made this a non-issue.

Second, Dragon Age II is different enough from Origins as to not represent a sequel to the perceived experience of the Dragon Age veteran.  A more carefully-chosen title may have helped here, especially since early gamer feedback of the first artwork and screenshots of DA2 acknowledged from the start that the game seemed different enough and potentially smaller than the admittedly humongous DAO.  The numbered sequel in all forms of entertainment still tends to set the expectation of "more of the same just bigger and better".

Third, DirectX11 on PC - since so few games really take advantage of this tech, any game with DirectX11 is going to be anticipated as a tech showcase, and marketing is expected to ride this wave.  So performing poorly on day one is one thing, but someone must have known about this on release date.  We could have been told a day early to expect a problem on Day 1 and that the problem is actively being investigated.  Unpleasant from any angle, but it didn't have to be introduced as a surprise.

Fourth, something awesome happens when you achieve it, not if you press a button.  This statement should never have been spoken aloud, but fortunately it is a statement that we can all look back on one day and laugh.

For full disclosure, I pre-ordered the PC digital version in the days before the release, and I hope to play with full working DirectX11 functionality very soon.  I may consider purchasing Sebastian if he is more fully integrated into the experience than ME2's Zaeed was (good gameplay character, but as a voiced protagonist, I could rarely actually say something to Zaeed). 

I hope that this release experience gives everyone - gamer, developer, and publisher alike - something to reflect on and strive for improvement.  Now, off to play some Dragon Age!

Modifié par jds1bio, 09 mars 2011 - 09:58 .

[tardis_type_40]

jds1bio wrote...

For a seemingly successful well-reviewed multi-platform release, why are the Dragon Age II forum discussions particularly brutal right now?

Genuine criticisms meet fandom's tendency toward self-hatred (this is true in ALL fandom, check out other fan forums sometime) and add in a dash of anonymity, and you have the perfect recipe for a Internet maelstrom. It doesn't matter what the critics or developers say, the game is going to take some heat for sometime because it's a follow up to a successful new intellectual property that's tweaked the forumla that people fell for.

Eventually people will calm down and reexamine the title on its own merits. Some will still hate it, some will like it better, some will come to love it. And the cycle will repeat when the next one comes out.

Modifié par tardis_type_40, 09 mars 2011 - 10:02 .

[RedDragynLady]

Well, I think the answer is something a bit more simple.

In short: The ones you see here are the vocal minority. Those who enjoy the game, who have been having fun and have few complaints... are playing the game. Those that don't like it are coming here to complain about it.

I, for example, am very much enjoying my experience. I'm enjoying the story, the characters, even the mechanics. Sure, I'd prefer an auto-attack, but it's not game-breaking for me. It's just different.

Some people want DA:O with just more stuff. This... isn't DA:O. It's similar enough to make me happy... but then, I'm not a hard-core gamer. I'm just a stay at home mom with an Xbox. Not exactly the target audience, anyway.

[JamesMoriarty123]

RedDragynLady wrote...

Well, I think the answer is something a bit more simple.

In short: The ones you see here are the vocal minority. Those who enjoy the game, who have been having fun and have few complaints... are playing the game. Those that don't like it are coming here to complain about it.

I, for example, am very much enjoying my experience. I'm enjoying the story, the characters, even the mechanics. Sure, I'd prefer an auto-attack, but it's not game-breaking for me. It's just different.

Some people want DA:O with just more stuff. This... isn't DA:O. It's similar enough to make me happy... but then, I'm not a hard-core gamer. I'm just a stay at home mom with an Xbox. Not exactly the target audience, anyway.

I think it's cool that you're a mam and you play Dragon Age Kudos to you.

[FearMonkey]

jds1bio wrote...

Bioware has mentioned in pre-release interviews that based on the gameplay feedback data collected from the first game, some gameplay features were changed or removed in the second game. While this may correlate sensibly with the feeback data collected, many gamers are disclosing in the forums that they liked having the now-removed gameplay features available to them. Just their presence markedly enhanced their perceived experience with the game, even if the gamers did not end up actively using these features during their particular playthrough(s).  So for all the gameplay feedback that was uploaded to Bioware regarding Dragon Age: Origins, and considered in crafting the gameplay of the second game, only now through the Dragon Age II reviews and the forum posters are the actual perceptions of the Dragon Age gameplay experience being disclosed by gamers.  But why now?  Was something missed?  Misunderstood?  Ignored?

From what I've heard, development on Dragon Age II began before the game was ever released to stores. So I'm not sure how they were getting this feedback data? Also, most of the data they said they collected involved people only playing for an hour or so. How long were they tracking this user data before they even began development? Did they consider the possibility that people bought the game to try it out, realized it was going to be a huge timesink and decided they wanted to finish other games in their backlog before they decided to play a huge RPG like Dragon Age: Origins? Some gamers also get side-tracked when new games come out and it takes a while to go back to the games they abandoned. I have yet to finish FFXII for instance. I keep going back to it every once in a while, but I then get distracted by something new and shiny. It happens.

Perhaps they would have more data to determine players usage if they had gathered a year's worth of data before diving headlong into determined gamer's playing habits?

Just some food for thought.

[GunClubGirl]

For one thing, people who are dissatisfied are more likely to come on here and voice their opinion than those who are satisfied. That is the case with ANY product or service. Second, a lot of us who like it are more interested in spending our time actually playing the game then on here. I think a lot of people were expecting a game identical to Origins or already had their mind made up that they were going to hate it before they even started playing based on the fact that there are changes. I also think some people have only played the demo (which was bad) and are basing their opinions on that. There certainly is room for improvement but this exaggerrated "hate" doesn't really make sense unless someone hated Origins also and just doesn't like the genre. The games have too much in common to love one and hate the other.

[Nonoru]

Some people didn't have contact with civilizations since DAO release date ?

[Mir5]

-Graphics. It's an easy subject even for outsiders to **** about. And though DA2 has some nice looking main characters and the colors work really well, the game does a poor job about hiding its polygons.
-Perhaps people are still pissed about certain odd designs in Mass 2's story?
-Anti-streamlining fanatics.

I'll see in few days if it deserves the hate.

[AlanC9]

FearMonkey wrote...
Did they consider the possibility that people bought the game to try it out, realized it was going to be a huge timesink and decided they wanted to finish other games in their backlog before they decided to play a huge RPG like Dragon Age: Origins?

If that's the case, those people would show up in the data as soon as they started playing again, wouldn't they? It's not like they turned the data collection off.

[Cobrawar]

because even with all its "streamlining" the general consensus is that origins is a much better game then Da2 with all of its changes. bioware made poor choices in the changes they chose to make

[r2dr]

jds1bio wrote...

For a seemingly successful well-reviewed multi-platform release, why are the Dragon Age II forum discussions
particularly brutal right now?  I hope the answer I offer proves to be of interest to gamers, Bioware, and EA.


Bioware has mentioned in pre-release interviews that based on the gameplay feedback data collected from the first game, some gameplay features were changed or removed in the second game. While this may correlate sensibly with the feeback data collected, many gamers are disclosing in the forums that they liked having the now-removed gameplay features available to them. Just their presence markedly enhanced their perceived experience with the game, even if the gamers did not end up actively using these features during their particular playthrough(s).  So for all the gameplay feedback that was uploaded to Bioware regarding Dragon Age: Origins, and considered in crafting the gameplay of the second game, only now through the Dragon Age II reviews and the forum posters are the actual perceptions of the Dragon Age gameplay experience being disclosed by gamers.  But why now?  Was something missed?  Misunderstood?  Ignored?
  

Well, to use a baseball analogy (sorry non-sportsfans), any baseball fan can tell you that a team that pays attention solely to stats while trying to play keep-up with the cross-town rival won't get to the big game.  Perhaps this is what has happened with the development of DA2 - DA2 being the feedback-stat-inspired efficiently-crafted 90-game playoff-bound winner (reflected in gamer sites' review scores and some gamer accounts), but not like the legendary World Series teams of yesteryear (DAO, etc.), and doesn't keep pace with the World Series winner that last year's cross-town rival (ME2) was. So after Opening Day, when fans feel that their teams have no chance to match up with their team's legends, or their rivals, they take it hard.  And despite there being a playoff-bound season ahead, they're still going to let you know about it, sometimes brutally. 

Or in simpler words, they've disregarded the long tail as something small. TV has been making that mistake for decades.

[Jam442]

I had planned to set the game aside until i had finished others,"i had reserved the signature edition"but after reading how watered down the game had become i just returned it.

If and when the tool set is released i may give it another look, but until then i will keep my $60 in my pocket.

[AlanC9]

jds1bio wrote...
First, Sebastian was a nice early pre-order incentive, and good to be available on release date for everyone, but 
should not have been marketed as release date DLC.  DLC, in the minds of gamers, still implies post-game extension, and post-game extension on release date makes no logical sense to anyone except in terms of wanting to make more money right away (almost to say that the price of admission wasn't already enough).  Perhaps an unfair assumption, but understanding the expectation of the gamer and framing this more favorably to the gamer would have made this a non-issue.

I'm not quite sure what the proposal is. Still use DLC as a pre-order incentive, but deliberately delay the DLC until after the launch date?

[pumpkinman13]

Simple answer: Cus they're raging that Dragon Age 2 is Dragon Age 2 when what they were expecting was Baldur's Gate 3.

[spikey84]

i guess what people are pissed off about it not as long as dragon age orgins thats the only worry i have with it

[Aidunno]

You also have people who haven't actually got the game moaning as though the demo is the game itself and jumping on the bandwagon.

[Pangaea]

Pretty simple really. Because the game is a massive disappointment.

[astrallite]

This is not a DX11 showcase...no tessellation was used to smooth out the edges of jagged objects that should have been circular.

[Jam442]

Damn right i was. if i want a arcade game i will try to find one.

[DrunkenMonkey]

the trolls are gone....you will now have to cope with british trolls.

[Faust1979]

there is a vocal minority but there has really been a mix of people liking it and hating it. The haters tend to be the most vocal so there really isn't a lot of hate against the game just the same people crying over and over. Don't like it then don't play it's that simple really. If you stop playing it then you don't have anything to cry about

[FearMonkey]

AlanC9 wrote...

FearMonkey wrote...
Did they consider the possibility that people bought the game to try it out, realized it was going to be a huge timesink and decided they wanted to finish other games in their backlog before they decided to play a huge RPG like Dragon Age: Origins?

If that's the case, those people would show up in the data as soon as they started playing again, wouldn't they? It's not like they turned the data collection off.

When did these people start playing again and how long were they tracking this data before the Bioware team had to get locked into a final design before full production ramped up? Since the game came out a year-and-a-half after DA:O, I doubt they were tracking more than a month of data. People who started playing again after a month would therefore not be tracked in this instance. And I'm sure there were a lot of people like this. But then again, it's Bioware with the user data, not me.

[Skilled Seeker]

Faust1979 wrote...

there is a vocal minority but there has really been a mix of people liking it and hating it. The haters tend to be the most vocal so there really isn't a lot of hate against the game just the same people crying over and over. Don't like it then don't play it's that simple really. If you stop playing it then you don't have anything to cry about

This. The majority in no way hates the game. I'd say most people are indifferent. Its not Bioware's best release but it certainly isn't a failure.

[sssfreak]

People hoped DA2 would be better than DAO and its not, its worse. Doesn't make it a bad game just not as good as DAO. This is disappointing to the majority of fans.

Modifié par sssfreak, 09 mars 2011 - 10:45 .

[Hyrist]

I'm more or less just utterly disapointed with the reaction this game is getting so far.

It just proves to me that there is a very petty community in games nowadays expecting gold nuggets for every possible releace for everything.

If you wanted 'more of DA:O' go play mods. I wanted Bioware to push the envelope of RPGs and they have.

But opinions are like butt-holes. Everyone has one. But just becaue everyone has one does not mean rubbing your ass all over the park lawn is kosher. It's the act of a dog and you get treated like a dog for it.

People cry "omg they're catering to the lowest common demoninator". To which I laugh, at them, as a person. For feeling so petty and low to think that their opinion should be valued above a bottom line.

If the game appeals to more people then it is a better game, period. Just because it alienates your rigid preconceptions on what a game 'should' be does not, in the least, make it a bad game, or a bad design choice. It means, you, as a gamer, failed to judge the game based off of it's own merits.

If you feel as if the game wasn't woth it to you PERSONALLY then realize the difference before you start judging the game as a whole.

The self-entitlement of the online community base is sickening, IMO. Anything remotely different from an exact duplication of a formula is reacted to negatively. ME2 Wasn't dumbed down, it was changed, for the better. And it got the same BS reaction from the playerbase then too.

I'll be keeping my opinion of the changes to myself for now. I did with DA and ME/ME2 too, honestly. Because my multiple playthroughs speak for themselves.

But seriously people need to get their heads out of their own hind ends. It's just the air of aarogance that just blows me away every time I try to peak into the community.

Times like these that make me embarassed to be human.