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[murgotroid]

edit: the forum software keeps reformatting my post for some reason.

I've been playing on Hard for the better part of the last two days, and I wanted to make some observations after a particularly frustrating battle. I started out on Nightmare, with a 2h warrior, although I swiftly moved to Hard after  a few battles.  The battles were winnable and I really prefer friendly fire, but the experience was more frustrating than enjoyable.  Overall, I've been enjoying the combat so far, but I'm having some issues with several of the different game mechanics.

Caveat for everything I am about to write: none of this is definitive.  I am willing--eager even--to be convinced that I am doing something wrong tactically.

Right now, the optimum party for my 2h warrior character seems to be 2 mages and a rogue. Varric's death from afar abilities occassionally allow him to substitute as a mage.  If I deviate from this too much, I'm not able to do enough damage or crowd control to consistently win battles. 

Recently, a good 50% of my battles end up with one of my characters doing the Benny Hill routine around the room as another character launches attacks at range. I'm not big on this kind of action. It's not very cinematic. Not that everything has to look like a movie. In the promo videos, Hawke trades concussive blows with a monstrous Qunari. They battle back and forth, gaining and losing ground until Hawke finally reaches deep with in himself and uses magic to tear the Qunari apart. If they had promo-ed a video of a Qunari chasing Hawke around and around a table while a dwarf on the balcony threw rocks at them, I suspect that sales figures would have been impacted. I could just stop using this tactic--but I think my win-loss ratio would be badly affected.

I am also finding warriors to be of increasingly marginal utility. Let me describe a typical battle of mine and see if I can explain this in context.

In the inital fight, everything works well.  They rush in, toss the enemy around and generally keep them off of the rogues and mages.  My 2h warrior goes through the standard-issue enemies like a wolverine in a sushi bar. The rogues and mages can deal with any stragglers, and focus on the lieutenants one-by-one.  Okay, the first wave is done.  Now, about 6-12 enemies drop from the ceiling, looking very much like the ninjas from Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.  They are dispersed throughout the room.  The warrior(s) can generally keep the initial group company while the rogue/mage crowd deals with the newcomers, including at least one boss/elite level enemy who is not focused on beating the crap out of the guy in the armor. But by the end of this battle, I'm tapped. The warrior(s) are low on health, heals and healing potions are all recycling and the enemies are tough enough that warrior abilities aren't going to have much of an impact. At this point, a bunch of enemies come back from their smoke break. The next few moments are largely about keeping the right people alive. If I can do in this last wave without losing my damage dealers, I can generally kill off the remaining boss and cohort by running in and out of doors in a long hallway as contemporary pop/rock music plays.  Use of a great dane and/or the Harlem Globetrotters is optional. 

After the inital wave, my warriors don't seem to draw much attention.  Taunt has a large stamina cost/recharge time, and I find that it diverts the enemies attention for the length of approximately one (1) attack from allies. I can have them go around and attack different stray enemies, but this seems to lose attention at the same rate that it attracts it. That's fine, I don't want Dragon Age to have MMORPG conventinos, but my issue is that on their own, warriors can't kill anything.  Yes, they can do in a normal enemy pretty swiftly.  But I'm at the point where normal enemies are increasingly rare, and the lieutenant caliber enemies are far more common.  Based on my experience, warriors can take one, maybe two of these enemies head to head.  That's with the use of abilities.  Normal warrior attacks are so ineffectual that you literally cannot tell that they are doing any damage unless you watch the meter very very closely.  This is the exact opposite of the enemy. Their melee attacks are usually so dangerous that I don't like having any class next to them for any period of time. On Hard difficulty, I'm finding it increasingly hard to justify sticking a second warrior in that slot. I can make up the loss in durability through tactics and crowd control.  I can't make up for the loss in damage. If they were at least survivable, it would be one thing, but even Avaline, who has been built for durability, just cannot stand up to an elite enemy (much less a boss) for a moderate period of time.  So if they can't hold attention, can't absorb damage and can't do any damage, what are they good for? 

This inability to damage anything makes a lot of abilities of
questionable utility even more questionable. It's nice that I can
increase my damage by 10% for ten seconds.  Maybe with enough skill
points I could manage an 80 or even 100% increase.  That would be cool,
but 2 times slightly more than zero is still only slightly more than
zero.

There's also something odd going on with melee in general.  Ranged damage is far more effective.  This is partly because you don't have to run to your next target, but I contend that there's a noticeable difference beyond this.  Mage staffs are supposed to do approximately the same amount of damage as two-handed swords going by the numbers in the inventory. (I can't access the game right now, so I may be a little off on this.) I'd estimate that they're at least twice as effective, and probably something along the lines of 4-5 times as effective, even accounting for ease of use in ranged weapons, melee stuns and movement. If this were just Varris, I'd chalk it up to critical hits, but Isabella's standard attacks seem to be relatively puny as well. 

It's possible that I've had bad luck with equipment. I certainly can't seem to pick up a weapon that isn't a giant battle-axe. I decided not to use the pre-order/dlc equipment at the start because...well, it seemed like a good idea at the time.  Also, I didn't like how most of the dlc stuff looked.

The emergency moves (stonewall, evade, mind blast) don't really do much for me. Stonewall is nice for the (literally) 5 seconds that it is in effect. I can at least get a heal in during that period.  Evade moves the battle 12 feet to the rear. The enemies go, "Hey that was a pretty sweet move, but I'm going to keep stabbing you now."  Mind blast has stunned about one enemy in the many times that I have tried it.  Maybe it's a problem with my mind. 

If enemy assassins/rogues have any less health than enemy warriors, the difference is eluding me. I suspect that all the time they spend stealthed means that any difference in hitpoints is mitigated. 

The Lance Arrow ability seems flawed.  It's supposed to hit multiple targets, but if a target isn't on a direct point-to-point line with Varris and the initial target, it doesn't seem like it gets hit.  It doesn't seem like the initial target gets hit sometimes to be honest. 

I've noticed that on occasion, a very tough enemy dies suddenly and unexpectedly.  I don't think this is some kind of multiplier taking effect on a stun, as it's usually in one of my opening scythe moves.  Is it a bug?  Is it poor understanding of tactics on my part?  Hard to say.  I find it hard to believe that Bioware designed the system so that named bosses can be one/two-shotted, even under optimal conditions. 

I think I've got a few more observations rattling around in my head, but those are the big ones.  I might add more later.

Modifié par murgotroid, 10 mars 2011 - 12:26 .

[nicethugbert]

Move the whole party to a bottle neck to make the enemies bunch up?

[murgotroid]

nicethugbert wrote...


Move the whole party to a bottle neck to make the enemies bunch up?

It's a good thought in theory.  In practice, I find it's best to spread everything out a bit so that the ranged characters can target and attack enemies more easily.  In addition, it lets them maneuver better and keeps them from getting pushed up against a wall and knocked over repeatedly until death. When you create those bottlenecks, enemies spawn behind you, and inevitably the most powerful enemy ends up wreaking havoc in an enclosed space.  Also, enemy AoEs are nasty.  If you can't avoid them, the battle ends quickly. A bottleneck is a bad place to be when an AoE comes calling.

[ScroguBlitzen]

I am having a much easier time than you, almost certainly because I'm a rogue. (Also Hard) Avangeline is a ridiculously good tank. She doesn't do jack for damage but she cannot die. I bring her and two mages usually. Bethany, and either the grey warden guy or the elf mage. I CAN run around the room absolutely destroying enemies one at a time, but it's actually safer to stay back and just protect my mages in tough fights. What you're saying sounds reasonable, and I suspected after playing the demo and reading the skill trees that Warriors were going to be problematic. If you use Avangeline to tank and you do AOE warrior damage, then you still need to bring two mages to be effective. Varic just isn't as useful as another mage. Maybe he will be when everyone is ranked high enough to do the cross class combos.

Always remember to have your dog out and make sure both your mages first 4 tactics slots are all focused on keeping themselves and eachother alive from melee attackers.

[soteria]

I'm playing a 2h warrior on nightmare, and I think the bottleneck works a lot better. Once you pick up mighty blow and scythe, any time you can get everything bunched up you want to do it. The idea here is that your ranged are behind the melee, who are completely blocking the chokepoint. When enemies spawn, my strategy is to immediately move the entire group. This lets me stay in control instead of letting the enemy dictate.

Re: taunt. You may be using it wrong. Taunt has changed from Origins, in which it generated a set amount of threat. In DA2, it's a threat transfer. So, if you use it early in the fight, it does effectively nothing because no one has dealt any damage. You're better off having all your ranged blow their big aoes early and forcing the enemy into a bottleneck where your warrior can taunt them all at once.

[ScroguBlitzen]

soteria wrote...

I'm playing a 2h warrior on nightmare, and I think the bottleneck works a lot better. Once you pick up mighty blow and scythe, any time you can get everything bunched up you want to do it. The idea here is that your ranged are behind the melee, who are completely blocking the chokepoint. When enemies spawn, my strategy is to immediately move the entire group. This lets me stay in control instead of letting the enemy dictate.

Re: taunt. You may be using it wrong. Taunt has changed from Origins, in which it generated a set amount of threat. In DA2, it's a threat transfer. So, if you use it early in the fight, it does effectively nothing because no one has dealt any damage. You're better off having all your ranged blow their big aoes early and forcing the enemy into a bottleneck where your warrior can taunt them all at once.

What's your typical party and abilities look like?

[murgotroid]

soteria wrote...

I'm playing a 2h warrior on nightmare, and I think the bottleneck works a lot better. Once you pick up mighty blow and scythe, any time you can get everything bunched up you want to do it. The idea here is that your ranged are behind the melee, who are completely blocking the chokepoint. When enemies spawn, my strategy is to immediately move the entire group. This lets me stay in control instead of letting the enemy dictate.

Re: taunt. You may be using it wrong. Taunt has changed from Origins, in which it generated a set amount of threat. In DA2, it's a threat transfer. So, if you use it early in the fight, it does effectively nothing because no one has dealt any damage. You're better off having all your ranged blow their big aoes early and forcing the enemy into a bottleneck where your warrior can taunt them all at once.

Got both scythe and might blow.  Mighty blow is fully upgraded.  Neither one is doing enough damage to be worth the lowered tactical responsiveness. Also the recycle times make them difficult to use in bottlenecks. 

I find that moving the entire group means that I'm picked apart by archers before I have time to set up.  Pushing past a bunch of enemies usually just means free shots on the guys in robes.  Bottlenecks have been effective for me in places.  But a lot of times I feel like it's just a really convient place for the enemy to send all of their guys. 

I'll have to check on taunt.  I haven't really played with it much.  I've used it a few times, and it was so ineffective that I was discouraged from using it again. 

This might be part of it: I'm still finishing up the side quests before heading into the Deep Roads.  This last, most frustrating battle was the standoff with the fake guardsmen at their headquarters.  People keep telling me to "leave the dog out." I have no idea what this means, other than to maybe check my fly.  (Please don't elaborate.  I'd like to minimize spoilers.)  Might be I'm at just the wrong spot in the game. 

[ScroguBlitzen]

The dog is not a spoiler. Its hawks power in his unique tree.

[Peter Thomas]

soteria wrote...

Re: taunt. You may be using it wrong. Taunt has changed from Origins, in which it generated a set amount of threat. In DA2, it's a threat transfer. So, if you use it early in the fight, it does effectively nothing because no one has dealt any damage. You're better off having all your ranged blow their big aoes early and forcing the enemy into a bottleneck where your warrior can taunt them all at once.

Taunt actually works by clearing the enemy threat table completely, then assigning the maximum possible threat to the taunter. It's absolutely effective, though particular AI tables might make them do something to a creature that isn't most hated.

Also, a side effect of a stun effect it that their threat table is cleared. If you Taunt someone, then stun them, they won't be taunted anymore.

[soteria]

So... the tooltip for taunt is deceptive? "Threat transfer: 100% from companions to warrior." If it applies the max possible threat to the taunter, what does that mean, exactly? Is max threat equal to the target's life, or a fraction of that, or something else entirely?

[Peter Thomas]

soteria wrote...

So... the tooltip for taunt is deceptive? "Threat transfer: 100% from companions to warrior." If it applies the max possible threat to the taunter, what does that mean, exactly? Is max threat equal to the target's life, or a fraction of that, or something else entirely?

Some descriptions weren't written as clear as they could have been.

How much a creature hates another is an integer values (0-1000, I believe). Every target has a base number based on it's class and distance away from the perceiver. All damage done to a creature also increases threat. If you're far away, it might be under 100. If you're close but not attacking, in the hundreds. Eventually doing enough damage to an enemy will bring it closer to 1000. Also it decays over time if you aren't constantly doing enough damage.

Taunt clears out their entire threat table and sets their hate for you to 1000. If you ignore him and another party member is doing damage, eventually it will switch from the taunter to the new target.

[KallDay]

Peter Thomas wrote...

Taunt actually works by clearing the enemy threat table completely, then assigning the maximum possible threat to the taunter. It's absolutely effective, though particular AI tables might make them do something to a creature that isn't most hated.

Also, a side effect of a stun effect it that their threat table is cleared. If you Taunt someone, then stun them, they won't be taunted anymore.

Thanks Peter. Great info and a real game changer.

[soteria]

Peter Thomas wrote...
Taunt clears out their entire threat table and sets their hate for you to 1000. If you ignore him and another party member is doing damage, eventually it will switch from the taunter to the new target.

Ok. That makes sense and matches what I've seen in-game, thank you.

[soteria]

@murgotrid Re-read the OP based on yours and Mr. Thomas's responses.

My experience has been markedly different from yours. I'm still in the first act, but my 2h warrior has no trouble killing even three lieutenants at once, and I think the difference may be gear. I'm not wearing DLC gear, but I did purchase/find a few items that are almost as good (my sword deals a couple points of damage less than Hayder's Razor). I'm following a fairly similar path, doing all the sidequests before joining the expidition.

My party is Aveline, PC 2h warrior, Varric, and a mage--I alternate between Bethany and Merril (sorry if the name's a spoiler). Bethany is built for support with mostly creation spells and Merril has CC/damage spells (chain lightning, sleep, hexes, etc).

In a typical fight, I avoid charging the enemy because I know that every fight will involve reinforcements. Instead, I let them come to me as a group, leaving their own position. If possible, I'll force them to round a corner or enter a corridor where the archers will be closer together, letting my 2h deal more damage. I might lead with Varric throwing down a rain of arrows they have to run through to get to me. As soon as they start to pop the corner, Varric lobs a miasmic flask to stun the first few, and Aveline and myself start attacking. Once they clump up, I use bursting shot and chain lightning, and then Aveline taunts and my warrior starts using abilities. Most times, the starting group is dead around this time and they receive reinforcements. Since I'm not in the middle of them, I don't have to worry about running through a gauntlet of arrows or anything. Of coure, individual situations and the terrain will dictate the best positioning. That's just how I do things, and it's working so far.

[JSLfromBx]

Does aveline got some hidden bonus that makes her a much better tank than a sword and shield hawke? Is it her companion armor?

[soteria]

/shrug. Her companion tree is very, very good for tanking. From what I've seen her armor is not as good as what a player can put together, though. At one point my 2h warrior had more armor than Aveline.

[StingingVelvet]

I can't image taking Aveline and Fenris both and Fenris' companion tree is just too full of awesome for me to leave him behind.

[shaneho78]

Aveline, 2H Hawke, Merrill and Varric

My starting strategy for Hard mode if the enemies bunch up at the beginning with the elite boss in front:

1) Aveline rushes forward and shield bash the elite boss = STAGGERED
2) Merrill --> chain lightning = CCCOMBO!
3) Varric --> hail of arrows
4) Hawke --> scythe
5) Merrill petrifies elite boss = BRITTLE
6) Hawke --> Shattering blow on boss = CCCOMBO!
7) Varric --> bursting arrow on boss = CCCOMBO! (meanwhile shielding companions with fog)

at this point, I take over Hawke and let the tactics take care of my companions. Merill uses stone fist and lightning bolt when surrounded. Varric uses the misama flask and pinning arrow when surrounded. Aveline taunts and uses stonewall. Hawke goes around chopping people up ( i like how Hayder's Razor can knock people back every 20 hits on the average and once they are down, I can slice them about 4-5 times more). If the boss is not severly weakened or the crowd does not drastically reduce in numbers or if we do not recover our mana/stamina by then, I may have to use stamina draughts.

PS: Your comment on Archer's Lance worries me as I'm planning on getting it. I thought it's like a long range Scythe. I had a rage demon die suddenly before I can even hit it as well. Weird. Thought it was just me.

Modifié par shaneho78, 10 mars 2011 - 02:05 .

[Tyalest]

I'm going to put a few comments in here and hope for some feedback.

I found the tank abilities in Awakening were much better, gave a defensive warrior the tools to do his job, without relying on "taunt" mechanics but rather threat and pressence.

Ambushes are still way too common in the DA series. Seems like my party should just know that one the way to visit someone's quest objective that they will be ambushed by the crazy 88 and that someone, I don't know who but they will be cleaning up a horrible mess in the morning.

Seriously, no one bats an eye after slaughtering (I can't describe the "chunking" of enemies any other way) 20+ enemies, and then doing that 2-4 more times one the way to finish a quest for 3 gold. I would really like an answer from whoever decided that fighting 3-6 enemies at a time was not fun and that I had to hack and slash my way through armies to get to generic quest objective.

Also, the damage in the game is terrible. On a two handed warrior my basic attack hits for 70 or so, but if I use an ability it somehow bumps up to 700 and kills an entire wave of enemies. That's not fun, its me waiting 15 seconds to hit mighty blow again. Atleast in DA damage was on the same scale and when you did hit for 150, rarely, it felt more impressive than critting a boss demon for 1300 in this game and barely denting his health. Big numbers aren't anymore impressive than small numbers if they don't mean anything.

Also, story, content and presentation in this game are amazing, combat is the biggest step back with the dumbing down and streamlining of stats and equipment.

Modifié par Tyalest, 10 mars 2011 - 04:19 .

[murgotroid]

soteria wrote...

@murgotrid Re-read the OP based on yours and Mr. Thomas's responses.

My experience has been markedly different from yours. I'm still in the first act, but my 2h warrior has no trouble killing even three lieutenants at once, and I think the difference may be gear. I'm not wearing DLC gear, but I did purchase/find a few items that are almost as good (my sword deals a couple points of damage less than Hayder's Razor). I'm following a fairly similar path, doing all the sidequests before joining the expidition.

My party is Aveline, PC 2h warrior, Varric, and a mage--I alternate between Bethany and Merril (sorry if the name's a spoiler). Bethany is built for support with mostly creation spells and Merril has CC/damage spells (chain lightning, sleep, hexes, etc).

In a typical fight, I avoid charging the enemy because I know that every fight will involve reinforcements. Instead, I let them come to me as a group, leaving their own position. If possible, I'll force them to round a corner or enter a corridor where the archers will be closer together, letting my 2h deal more damage. I might lead with Varric throwing down a rain of arrows they have to run through to get to me. As soon as they start to pop the corner, Varric lobs a miasmic flask to stun the first few, and Aveline and myself start attacking. Once they clump up, I use bursting shot and chain lightning, and then Aveline taunts and my warrior starts using abilities. Most times, the starting group is dead around this time and they receive reinforcements. Since I'm not in the middle of them, I don't have to worry about running through a gauntlet of arrows or anything. Of coure, individual situations and the terrain will dictate the best positioning. That's just how I do things, and it's working so far.

I think you may be right about equipment. Some of the stuff I got in the Deep Roads was twice as good as what I was carrying around. So Varris' weapon was the only thing that was doing any real damage. This may explain my Varris=mage comment earlier. 

The whole time I've been writing this, I've been viewing it through the prism of this one false guardsmen battle.  The problem there is that there is a single chokepoint, and the bulk of the reinforcements spawn behind it. I had a long string of these types of battles leading up to the false guardsmen.

[Colma]

I'm pretty let down on the combat. The only strategy involved relates to one point the OP made: "Here, try and deal with this wall of enemies!" The fight to save the Viscount's son on the Wounded Coast comes to mind...3 waves of 10+ enemies...all the same enemies...really?

I'd much rather fight 3-4 interesting enemies than 12-15 crap ones with an elite assassin trying to stealth rape my mages.

Playing NM btw.

[Beguiler59]

My biggest dissapointments are you don't have two weapon slots one to keep a bow in like in DAO and able to switch when useful. The other is most of your vision is limeted to the point enemy has to be almost on top of you before seeing it, at least in DAO you could use a bow for distance shots.

[Crocodiles]

My biggest gripe is when I revive my party members in the middle of combat they just walk around and not fight back. I'd switch characters, but they just stand there doing nothing. I don't know how many times I've died, cos my party suddenly decided to become pacifists in the middle of a fight.

[Llaerrick]

not having quick switch weapons (you can't even hotkey a weapon) is terrible and possibly my biggest in game gripe

there used to be a tactic in da1 and da:o which allowed the ai to switch to melee weapons when attacked by melee (not in this version).

i can accept that there should be some sort of a 'cool-down'/lag time between switching weapons; but to make a player go to inventory and switch out of a bow to melee every combat round gets tedious from the get-go.

[murgotroid]

Seriously, no one bats an eye after slaughtering (I can't describe the "chunking" of enemies any other way) 20+ enemies, and then doing that 2-4 more times one the way to finish a quest for 3 gold. I would really like an answer from whoever decided that fighting 3-6 enemies at a time was not fun and that I had to hack and slash my way through armies to get to generic quest objective.

You know what's interesting is that this style of play makes a lot more sense in the last game, where slaughtering large numbers of darkspawn is a bit more believable than killing approximately 600 people in the course of a single day. 

I've switched back down to normal difficulty after the ancient rock wraith battle (I'm fine with difficult encounters.  I'm not fine with difficult encounters that last half an hour apiece and require very specific skills).  Only had a few battles thus far, but they've been disappointingly easy.  I'm still largely positive about this game, but I feel like DA2 could have used maybe a tad more play-balancing.