107 réponses à ce sujet

[Sulaco426]

tbsking wrote...

Sulaco426 wrote...

tbsking wrote...

Sulaco426 wrote...

tbsking wrote...

Sulaco426 wrote...

Stoomkal wrote...

Sulaco426 wrote...

Dragon Age: Origins: Cliche story albeit great story(an ancient evil has awoken, you are the last person alive that can stop it), Great gameplay, Decent graphics = BEST RPG EVER!!!!1

Dragon Age 2: Better story (reminiscent of Scarface), same awesome gameplay as DA:O (no isometric view), better graphics yet art style kinda blows (Dem Ogres) =WORST RPG EVER XD

Guys seriously, DA2 had the same gameplay as DA:O if you played on PC (I pity you if you play it on a console). The story was arguably better because it is less of a cliche fantasy story. The only thing that really took a hit was the graphics/art style and suddenly the franchise is dead? Guys......allow me to be the voice of reason......don't you guys think you are going a little over board with this whole "DRAGON AGE IS DOOMED!!!" thing?

...

OMG!

"reminiscent of Scarface"

... did... did you just compare DA2 to Brian Depalma's classic film??

Really? 

Also this: A cliche is used for a reason - they work.

Most people would regard a basic "narrative" as having a protagonist, an antagonist, and a goal. Even if your goal is simply a Macguffin to keep the narrative flowing, that is okay - you can focus on the tension between an antagonist and the protagonist.

DA2 had no antagonist and no goal.

It is like an open-world plot used to string together side quests, but even calling it a narrative is abit of a stretch.

Scarface: 
A refugee from Cuba comes to Miami Florida and faces hardship. 
Throughout said hardship he makes friends and enemies, and eventually
starts to gain power.  Eventually he reaches the goal of becoming one of
the most powerful crime lords in Miami, only to have everything he
cared for taken away from him and his death ensues.

Dragon Age
2:  A refugee from Fereldan comes to Kirkwall and faces hardship. 
Throughout said hardship he makes friends and enemies, and eventually
starts to gain power, and eventually becomes a very powerful individual
in Kirkwall.  How you play the character is left up to you. 

The stories are basically the same thing.

You, sir, just accused Bioware of ripping off scarface. Have you no honor?

Not really, it's a popular story archetype.

Did you not know that most stories througout human history share various similarites?

For instance Star Wars draws a lot of it's story from The Odyssey.

Scarface-esque architypes can be great if done correctly. For an excellent video game example, look no further than Grand Theft Auto Vice City (which was really a satire of Scarface). The execution in Dragon Age 2 just seems incredibly vapid.

Several times I actually sat back and asked myself "What the heck am I even doing?"

The execution was just incredibly poor.

Do you think you could give me some examples?

Examples of good Scarface style stories, or times of frustration?

Times of frustration.

I probably should have said that earlier......

[Corti78]

tbsking wrote...

Sulaco426 wrote...

tbsking wrote...

Sulaco426 wrote...

Stoomkal wrote...

Sulaco426 wrote...

Dragon Age: Origins: Cliche story albeit great story(an ancient evil has awoken, you are the last person alive that can stop it), Great gameplay, Decent graphics = BEST RPG EVER!!!!1

Dragon Age 2: Better story (reminiscent of Scarface), same awesome gameplay as DA:O (no isometric view), better graphics yet art style kinda blows (Dem Ogres) =WORST RPG EVER XD

Guys seriously, DA2 had the same gameplay as DA:O if you played on PC (I pity you if you play it on a console). The story was arguably better because it is less of a cliche fantasy story. The only thing that really took a hit was the graphics/art style and suddenly the franchise is dead? Guys......allow me to be the voice of reason......don't you guys think you are going a little over board with this whole "DRAGON AGE IS DOOMED!!!" thing?

...

OMG!

"reminiscent of Scarface"

... did... did you just compare DA2 to Brian Depalma's classic film??

Really? 

Also this: A cliche is used for a reason - they work.

Most people would regard a basic "narrative" as having a protagonist, an antagonist, and a goal. Even if your goal is simply a Macguffin to keep the narrative flowing, that is okay - you can focus on the tension between an antagonist and the protagonist.

DA2 had no antagonist and no goal.

It is like an open-world plot used to string together side quests, but even calling it a narrative is abit of a stretch.

Scarface: 
A refugee from Cuba comes to Miami Florida and faces hardship. 
Throughout said hardship he makes friends and enemies, and eventually
starts to gain power.  Eventually he reaches the goal of becoming one of
the most powerful crime lords in Miami, only to have everything he
cared for taken away from him and his death ensues.

Dragon Age
2:  A refugee from Fereldan comes to Kirkwall and faces hardship. 
Throughout said hardship he makes friends and enemies, and eventually
starts to gain power, and eventually becomes a very powerful individual
in Kirkwall.  How you play the character is left up to you. 

The stories are basically the same thing.

You, sir, just accused Bioware of ripping off scarface. Have you no honor?

Not really, it's a popular story archetype.

Did you not know that most stories througout human history share various similarites?

For instance Star Wars draws a lot of it's story from The Odyssey.

Scarface-esque architypes can be great if done correctly. For an excellent video game example, look no further than Grand Theft Auto Vice City (which was really a satire of Scarface). The execution in Dragon Age 2 just seems incredibly vapid.

Several times I actually sat back and asked myself "What the heck am I even doing?"

The execution was just incredibly poor.

I see I wasn't the only that had to just stop and ask that question. There are so many points in DA2 where my interest in the game pretty much disappeared due to lack of direction and unfocused narrative. I'm in the middle of act 3 but honestly I don't have the "I have to see what happens next!" drive that I had in previous BW games.

It disappoints me greatly because I'm trying really hard to enjoy the game but its just not clicking for me.

[Sinvx]

Stoomkal wrote...

Sulaco426 wrote...

Dragon Age: Origins: Cliche story albeit great story(an ancient evil has awoken, you are the last person alive that can stop it), Great gameplay, Decent graphics = BEST RPG EVER!!!!1

Dragon Age 2: Better story (reminiscent of Scarface), same awesome gameplay as DA:O (no isometric view), better graphics yet art style kinda blows (Dem Ogres) =WORST RPG EVER XD

Guys seriously, DA2 had the same gameplay as DA:O if you played on PC (I pity you if you play it on a console). The story was arguably better because it is less of a cliche fantasy story. The only thing that really took a hit was the graphics/art style and suddenly the franchise is dead? Guys......allow me to be the voice of reason......don't you guys think you are going a little over board with this whole "DRAGON AGE IS DOOMED!!!" thing?

...

OMG!

"reminiscent of Scarface"

... did... did you just compare DA2 to Brian Depalma's classic film??

Really? 

Also this: A cliche is used for a reason - they work.

Most people would regard a basic "narrative" as having a protagonist, an antagonist, and a goal. Even if your goal is simply a Macguffin to keep the narrative flowing, that is okay - you can focus on the tension between an antagonist and the protagonist.

DA2 had no antagonist and no goal.

It is like an open-world plot used to string together side quests, but even calling it a narrative is abit of a stretch.

... Antagonist would be the whole of the Templars/Chantry, Meredith for example. The goal would to be to topple the Templars/Chantry, or Circle of Magi... Gonna go ahead, and assume you didn't finish the game.

[tbsking]

Well, the part that sticks out the most in my mind is the part immediately pre-Deep Roads. Having to complete every quest that was currently logged in my journal grated on my nerves, as most of them were glorified fetch quests. I realize they would have been lost forever, or were somehow related to the main plot, but it drove me bonkers.

Afterwords, having spoken to the viscount, I was given a quest to go find something or other, with no particular motivation. I go, I fought some people (sadly realizing to myself that I didn't quite care about their captives and should have let them die). After that, there was a lot of walking around visiting with characters and performing quests for reasons I couldn't understand due to lack of motivation (in-game and out).

The main problem I have is that more often than not, the plot-important quests don't seem important at all. Whereas DAO had choices and consequences that were obviously significant, this seems to present the option of letting a qunari die or letting him die differently as some major plot point, the outcome of which is obscure even when presented.

The dialogue system itself provided a new frustration. I was against the Mass Effect style of dialogue, and this solidifies it for me. When talking, I can count on one finger the number of times Hawke actually said what I thought was intended. I've stopped looking at the phrase and have started picking based on whether or want to be nice or sarcastic to the person in question.

The re-dongled approval system just gets on my last nerve. I thought since there was friendship and rivalry instead of approval and disapproval I could RP like I wanted instead of picking specific dialogue options. This resulted in me staying in the "Neutral Zone" with all my companions.

When I did finally decide to just game the dialogue, I found that the character's personalities were so blurry as compared to DAO, that figuring out which statements they would like or hate was as random as figuring out what Hawke was going to say anyways.

This led to me, at several points, asking the screen "Why?"

While walking, doing quests, I asked, "Why am I doing this crap?"

When talking to characters, "Why am I bothering to talk to you? Why am I bothering to pick options?"

When dealing with my companions, "Why am I with you?"

EDIT: Most egregious to me was the total lack of caring about my dead sister. She's faceplanted by an Ogre, Hawke makes a wry joke, world keeps turning. Nothing else. I started a rivalry with Carver because I couldn't be bothered to care to wits for my family. Origins neatly avoided that.

Modifié par tbsking, 10 mars 2011 - 05:32 .

[screwoffreg]

The story is not nearly so bad as some make it out to be but at times it feels rushed. I have to say the ending was atrocious. Cliffhangers should provide some sort of satisfaction at least; something to look forward to. ME 2 gave us the thrill of the Reapers, for example, and most of the immediate storyline wrapped up or at least at a point where you felt "satisfied". DA II might as well have ended with "COMING SOON FOR $30!!!"

[Alessar1288]

While I did enjoy DA 2, I'm kind of worried that a DA MMO is on the way...The Warden and Hawke missing reeks of kotor,

[screwoffreg]

Alessar1288 wrote...

While I did enjoy DA 2, I'm kind of worried that a DA MMO is on the way...The Warden and Hawke missing reeks of kotor,

Bioware has so many resources wrapped up in their Star Wars MMO, it would be almost insane to try a new MMO.  I think we are safe for at least one more major expansion or sequel to DA II...

[shadow nexus51]

the reason many people are hating this game is because it leaves too much unanswered, i liked it for the most part....But its not a strong follow up from the first one. In comparison it just has a weaker story, and is very slow for the most part. Good game for sure, however kind of a step back from the first one (in terms of story not gameplay).

[Pyromatic Tabby]

Carlsbad wrote...

I've got to laugh in the face of anyone who says this has a "great" story.

Read a book sometime.

After playing DA2 through to the end I feel like that phrase should be framed and hung on a wall, perhaps set into stone.

Narky commentery from myself aside, I'm of the same mind as tbsking. I found myself waiting for the story to begin up until the point where the credits began to gingerly roll up my screen, to the outbust of "Where the hell is Act 4?!".

I can stomach a simplified combat system as a symptom of the times and happily play a game, but it boggles my mind to think that the sequal to Origins story can be distilled down;

collect 50 soverigns, lose a member of the team designated a 'sibling',  end up starting a mini war that can't be avoided, lose an NPC designated 'Mother', pick a side in Mage verse Templar, start a larger war that can't be avoided, end up becoming a Martyr and roll "Buy Dragon Age 3" Ending.

The story of DA2 hardly actually goes anywhere, I still remember how the lines of conversations from Aliaster differed in Origins depending on weather or not he had been harden while for instance Merril was intrinically the same character at the end of the game compared to the version you meet at the beginning regardless of your actions. In writing this I questioned if it was fair to compare a central figure in Origins story with a companion who is a somewhat a cardboard cut out of a character but I failed to draw a decent comparion out of DA2 for one reason, no one stuck in my mind.

In retrospective I chatted with the companions out of an expectation I would learn some piece of general lore about the settings of the game or some personal lore about the character, Origins explained why shale disliked birds and also why (she?) was discovered by the player in a town square while Avaline is just happy to tag along for the ride.

I feel like DA2 played like an MMORPG reusing lore from Origins, And in my irritation in regards to DA2 I suspect that had this not been a sequel nor a wear a Bioware brand the game would be spoken of less kindly. 

Modifié par Pyromatic Tabby, 10 mars 2011 - 09:37 .

[mrbill2uaa]

There has been a trend recently in writers circles to try and master the elusive "the environment as a whole is the protagonist" plotline. They tried it in Stargate Universe and failed miserably. Many writers see this style as a challenge as it is much more dificult to write an engaging adventure without a blood and flesh sole protagonist. I personally am only partway through Act 1 and my game is on hold due to a quest bug,.. That said, I love this game. I love the faster paced combat. I enjoyed the DA:O universe, and I am now enjoying playing in that universe without an "OMG I HAVE TO KILL THE BIG BAD EVIL DRAGON NOW" ever driving plot. I will reserve final judgement for a few months when the patch comes out to fix my quest and lets me continue the game, but so far two thumbs up.

Modifié par mrbill2uaa, 10 mars 2011 - 10:17 .

[slickerpunk123]

Just beat DA2. Just a few questions. What was the relic? Why did it make people crazy? Where did Isabella go? Why was the warden looking for me? How did Lilliana join the chantry? Why was Lilliana helping the seeker look for me? What the hell did Allistar want when he came? Why the hell was Anders not that powerful for me when he decided to nuke an entire building? Why did the crazy first enchanter turn into a demon when we just killed all the templars? Why did Zavran come help me? Why did my companions leave me if we were all fugitives together? Oh yea, WHAT WAS THE IDLE?

[LilyDelyrium]

I liked some parts of DA2 ...i think the main issue about the history is that it is not over yet...all that was just the beginning (so i like to belive), all that was for us to know who Hawke are .what he/she did in Kirkwall and the events that lead to that sorry end.

I liked the combat it felt strange at first but for me it was more fun then DAO.

Now what really disappointed me was the extremely lack of character interaction..why can i just talk to my companions i felt like i dint know them ...that Hawke lived years with that people and just shut a door in my face so could't see it.. that really ****** me of in this game. (Sorry for the bad english ...english is not my main language)

[vigna]

The story is too heavy handed with the choices you are forced and allowed to make, and the derived emotions the difficult decisions are supposed to bring. Killing your Mom was just over the top...in a bad way...as if brother and sister weren't already enough we'll go xtreme and kill momma too.

I really got emotion and felt emotion as Bethany died-- from that point on it seemed like the game was geared to elicit certain emotions rather than letting me find them naturally through story progression.

[DrGulag]

The story is horrible.

I feel no sympathy towards my companions (selfish blood mages, psychopaths and terrorists). I'm just questing for coin and it's one tragedy after another.

I don't even know what my responses will be half the time, because of the dialogue wheel. Not that it matters, because my choices have no effect on the outcome. 

And in the end I'm forced to choose between crazies. In the end I just wanted to leave Kirkwall for good.

Ferelden is my home lol.

Modifié par DrGulag, 18 mars 2011 - 12:17 .

[Zmajc]

DrGulag wrote...

The story is horrible.

I feel no sympathy towards my companions (selfish blood mages, psychopaths and terrorists) I'm just questing for coin and it's one tragedy after another.

I don't even know what my responses will be half the time, because of the dialogue wheel.

And in the end I'm forced to choose between crazies.

Pretty much how i felt.

[Vilegrim]

Sulaco426 wrote...

I gotta ask, I know this is going to sound incredibly dumb, but go with me.

Why do so many people hate the story?

I've been playing the game myself, and there is one thing DA2 reminds me of. Scarface.

Scarface was about a refugee from Cuba whom worked his way up the criminal food chain in Miami, in order to become one of the most powerful men in Miami.

Dragon Age 2 is about a refugee from Fereldan whom worked his way up to become very powerful in Kirkwall.

Now while DA2 has also some big differences in the story, there is a lot of similarities.

So wouldn't hating DA2s story also mean you hate Scarface?

No.. DA2 is a good movie script and is about that rigid.   RPGs are supposed to be about meaningful choices and DA2 has none (or very very few) of them.  Hell the choices in Mass Effect felt like they mattered a hell of a lot more.

Scarface is a great movie.. but as such it doesn't have to offer choices, and so the lack of them doesn't intrude at all on it's storytelling DA2 is an RPG and the lack of choices in that context.. is jarring.

Modifié par Vilegrim, 18 mars 2011 - 12:28 .

[Werrf]

DA:2's plot did something that hasn't happened to me in a long time.

It surprised me.

Every Bioware game ever has followed nearly the same structure - go to these four places, get these four things, fight the Big Bad and save the World/Galaxy/Whatever. Been there, done that. From the beginning of the demo, it was clear what DA:2 was going to be about - epic, world-changing discoveries that strike at the core of Chantry faith.

But it wasn't. I was wrong. And as I played through the game, I was constantly surprised and blindsided, as my assumptions (mine - not the character's) were constantly challenged and contradicted.

I've played "Save the world" a dozen times before. Sure, it's generally good, but it's also been done. This? This was different. Way different. And that is awesome.

In DA:O, I hated dungeon crawling. The combat was okay, but there were too many occasions where I carefully plotted out the opening moves of a battle, only to have bad guys calmly walk past my fighter while she stood there, running on the spot and holding her sword helplessly. Sure, there are some things I miss - like sending my rogue out under stealth to scout around, particularly - but on the whole, I'll happily take the DA:2 combat which is more or less identical to DA:O without the glitches.

And I'm loving how critics keep saying "None of the companions had any personality, except for <insert character here, different every time>."

So I'm sorry some people aren't enjoying DA:2. Personally, I'm loving the story, most of the mechanics, and definitely the CHARACTERS.

[DrGulag]

There is not one major choice in this game.

Even at the end it doesn't matter if you side with templars or mages. You still have to kill everyone and the only difference is one line from Varric. The world stays the same.

Bioware really dropped the ball. I can't even understand how it's possible.

Modifié par DrGulag, 18 mars 2011 - 12:37 .

[hawat333]

JoePilot wrote...

Some people aren't too impressed with the story, actually.

That has a very valid and good point: The lack of backstories.
I always thought the "jump right into the action" is a terrible desing choice for any RPG. I was dismissed several times, so I began to think it's just my idea. But now when the game is out, I meet this thought in every second corner.
And I still think this way.
Before we jump into fighting we shall know what we're fighting for. Popular action game solutions (let the guy shoot from 15 seconds in the story) does not work in a roleplaying game. Because here we care about characters. And the story.

[Ieldra]

Edli wrote...
Are you saying that you're playing it only because of the story? You're not finding the combat fun?

I don't know what he says, but yes, I'm saying exactly that - OK perhaps not for the story, but for the story and character interaction. DA2 combat is the most un-fun combat in any Bioware game so far. The enemy waves, the over-the-top silly animations, the insane speed and the overblown gore have all but ruined it for me.

The roleplaying aspects are fine, even if the dialogue wheel labeling needs a serious overhaul.  

Edit:
Yes, the lack of a rich backstory is a flaw, for Hawke and several of the companions.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 18 mars 2011 - 12:41 .

[DrGulag]

The dialogue wheel is horrible. I need to see what my responses are, otherwise what's the point? Am I not theone who is supposed to roleplay here?

I'd rather they removed all the choices if they cant bring back the old style. This

Good
Joke
Evil

Is completely laughable.

Remember how in DA:O you could talk with the slaver in the elven alienage? He would say something along the lines of :

"I'll pay you some sovereigns and I leave with the elves. "

"I have a counter-proposal."

"Oh really? That's great what is it? "

"I kill you, take the sovereigns and free the elves. "

"Oh I see, we have a comedian"

That's just one example but that was already better than anything in Dragon Age 2.

Modifié par DrGulag, 18 mars 2011 - 12:47 .

[Werrf]

DrGulag wrote...

There is not one major choice in this game.

Even at the end it doesn't matter if you side with templars or mages. You still have to kill everyone and the only difference is one line from Varric. The world stays the same.

Bioware really dropped the ball. I can't even understand how it's possible.

Yes.  It's a different kind of story.  Let's face it, your choices in Origins were always, within the context of the game, largely cosmetic.  Side with the elves or with the wolves?  In the end you get...either elves or wolves.  The world does not exactly sudder in its course, every other plot still plays out, you still end with the big set-piece battle.  Bhelan or Harrowmont was about the only choice in the game I ever really hesitated over, and that was only because I didn't have enough information about either of them and, once again, it makes little real difference anywhere else.

DA:2, your decisions affect your life - which is the kind of story we're telling.  Your decision of whether to take your sibling with you to the Deep Roads wil have a HUGE effect on Hawke's life.  Expecting your decisions to change the course of nations when you're just one refugee is just not appropriate to the story that is being told here.  It's a different story.

Perhaps the game would have been better received if it had just had the Dragon Age header but its own name - "Rise to Power", perhaps - the same way Origins did.  Calling it Dragon Age 2 could be a little misleading, but this is NOT a direct sequel to Origins.  It's a second game int he Dragon Age universe and, if you look at it that way, the different story makes a lot more sense.

 That's just one example but that was already better than anything in Dragon Age 2.

No, it wasn't.  See?  I can state opinions as fact too!!

Modifié par Werrf, 18 mars 2011 - 12:55 .

[Medhia Nox]

If they had told me it was a completely linear action adventure i would have appreciated it more.

This is Isabela and Ander's story - I don't appreciate that at all.

When I play a roleplaying game I expect to alter some outcome - I also don't expect to be upstaged by the NPCs.

(spoilers)

- Despite being led to believe otherwise - the Arishok is forced into action no matter what you do.
- Despite being led to believe otherwise - nothing you can do will lead to a different outcome at the end of Dragon Age 2.
- Despite being led to believe otherwise - you can't save your mother because Bioware said it was too gritty to allow people to save her (their quote - no I'm not going to search for it)

(End of spoilers)

[DrGulag]

. Side with the elves or with the wolves? In the end you get...either elves or wolves. The world does not exactly sudder in its course, every other plot still plays out, you still end with the big set-piece battle. Bhelan or Harrowmont was about the only choice in the game I ever really hesitated over, and that was only because I didn't have enough information about either of them and, once again, it makes little real difference anywhere else.

-You had three options in the Brecilian forest. Side with the wolves, elven leader or make peace.

-You were able to choose a new King in Orzammar and the fate of the anvil was yours to decide. A huge huge effect when you think about it. A new army for the dwarves was a possibility.

-You had the chance to purge the Circle of Magi or save it from templar intervention.

A very emotional choice in RedCliffe. Saving Connor or killing him.

Nothing in DA2 compares to the moment when Isolde is crying as she takes the life of Connor. And there's no excuse, because this second installment has a voiced Hawke but there's virtually no emotion when his/her mother dies? What the.....

In Origins you had the option to sacrifice yourself, choose kings and do so much stuff that it's hard to even remember all the choices. The major word is choice, because even in dialogue you often had over 4 options. You could persuade, lie, charm and intimidate.

In Dragon Age 2 you cant....do.....sh*t

Modifié par DrGulag, 18 mars 2011 - 01:06 .

[Ieldra]

DrGulag wrote...
The dialogue wheel is horrible. I need to see what my responses are, otherwise what's the point? Am I not theone who is supposed to roleplay here?

I'd rather they removed all the choices if they cant bring back the old style. This

Good
Joke
Evil

Is completely laughable.

Remember how in DA:O you could talk with the slaver in the elven alienage? He would say something along the lines of :

"I'll pay you some sovereigns and I leave with the elves. "

"I have a counter-proposal."

"Oh really? That's great what is it? "

"I kill you, take the sovereigns and free the elves. "

"Oh I see, we have a comedian"

That's just one example but that was already better than anything in Dragon Age 2.

The dialogue wheel itself is not a bad idea. It has space enough for six options (let's say five plus "investigate"), and you could realize the above exchange just as well using the wheel. The problem is the labeling - there isn't any reason why the labels can't be complete sentences, the screen is wide enough. Another problem is that the wheel tends to streamline the options into those three you mention. But it's the writer's fault if they can't use it well.  

Modifié par Ieldra2, 18 mars 2011 - 01:05 .