38 réponses à ce sujet

[Valingard]

I have not had a problem with Ave holding aggro. My main tactic is to direct her to the strongest enemy present. If there are no elites then she goes after the most powerful. In the mean time I use my ranged characters ( Varric, Anders who doubles as my healer, and my Hawke is a mage) to pick off as many of the "easy" ones as possible. This gives Ave time to pick up the powerful foes. Also I am not sure if this is the norm, but when Ave levels I alternate between 1 Str and 2 Const and 1 Const and 2 Will. This gives her ample strength (dmg to hold aggro and fortitude) and enough HP to take a beating. I gope this helps. Cheers.

[Graunt]

Vasiliii wrote...

I might respec Aveline deeper into the BM tree as I'm only dropping threat when adds come (boss calls for help.. Second wave of enemies, etc.). Thanks for that. Is the threat transfer only in the small radius of the sustain though?

I'm honestly not 100% on this at all, but it's not that bad even if that were the case.  Your group is still getting a minor boost to defense, and the closer you are to the enemy, the higher your threat anyway, so she would be getting even more threat from the entire party per enemy. She's also soaking 25% of the damage they would be taking, which is huge for the Mages.  It's usually Assassins and other hard hitting melee that are ever a problem anyway.

Bioware really needs to work on their tooltips -- and they also need to get someone who can make a UI (stats and skills) that actually changes with auras or equipment.  If it ends up not working as expected, I'll probably dump it for Bravery, although that skill would do absolutely nothing against a large, single target boss while the other aura would.

Stuns clear threat, according to Peter Thomas.

This irony with this is that it's an incredibly powerful tool for a Force Mage on Hard -- but you don't even need it on that difficulty, and on the difficulty you do, you would just end up stunning those you're trying to save.

Modifié par Graunt, 11 mars 2011 - 08:42 .

[Kilshrek]

The only time this really becomes a problem for me is when I'm fighting a boss creature, and twice in the Deep Roads ^%^&$%%&^ing dragon and rock wraith ignore the tank and go straight for squishies.

And don't get me started on the stupid enemy wave things where it's clever to drop in new enemies behind where the first enemies were fought, which is exactly where the mage and archer are.

The vaunted closing attacks aren't very useful on moving targets and especially with the boss creatures. They kinda auto stagger/stun you warriors and go straight for the squishies anyway.

[Vasiliii]

Ok so I have been experimenting with different specs and I'm finding that having Ave specced into Vanguard as opposed to other trees is working wonders.. As my character is a mage and I also have Anders in the party I use both to heal (Hawke as an off-healer, Anders as main heals). Basically, Ave's defense is lower but she has great AoE damage. Not only that, Ave can now AoE stagger enemies. Hawke is specced with upgraded Chain Lightning to take full advantage of this and I'm seeing damage of over 1.8k on multiple targets at once.

Aveline has fully upgraded Synergy as well, to help hold the aggro. All in all, I'm seeing decent success with this in Hard.Although her health is quite lean (on account of having virtually no shield & sword abilities as of yet), Aggro is really easy to hold in this build, but I have to constantly micromanage Ave to catch adds early (or else it's hard to get them off of my remaining party members).

I don't agree with Aveline being useless, she is probably my most useful party member. She deals quite a bit of DPS and maintains aggro most fights (unless I get lazy).

Modifié par Vasiliii, 11 mars 2011 - 04:08 .

[Itkovian]

I think it helps to give other characters aggro management as well (or some high defensive abilities, like rock armour). That way they can help the tank regain aggro and hold on to it.

It's also important not to "blow" your taunt early in the fight. Wait until the second wave or so, when ressources are lower and your rogues and mages can't simply burn through their enemies. That's when the tank comes into his own (also at that point the tank has lower stamina, so turning on sustainables is pain free).

My plan is to get Aveline fully upgraded bravery and defensive abilities, while my sword and board DPS warrior Hawke goes for battle synergy (going up to upgraded cleave in vanguard).

At the same time, I will give my rogues some aggro-reduction abilities and my mages either mind blast or rock armour (maybe cone of cold is good CC, not sure).

Itkovian

[adamwan]

Use goad, set your rogue to....If Hawke/Aveline < any then use goad

[Vasiliii]

Itkovian wrote...

I think it helps to give other characters aggro management as well (or some high defensive abilities, like rock armour). That way they can help the tank regain aggro and hold on to it.

It's also important not to "blow" your taunt early in the fight. Wait until the second wave or so, when ressources are lower and your rogues and mages can't simply burn through their enemies. That's when the tank comes into his own (also at that point the tank has lower stamina, so turning on sustainables is pain free).

My plan is to get Aveline fully upgraded bravery and defensive abilities, while my sword and board DPS warrior Hawke goes for battle synergy (going up to upgraded cleave in vanguard).

At the same time, I will give my rogues some aggro-reduction abilities and my mages either mind blast or rock armour (maybe cone of cold is good CC, not sure).

Itkovian

Cleave is insanely strong for Sword&Shield warriors in this game, good choice. I wouldn't recommend going Cone of Cold because the elemental tree doesn't really complement the stagger effects that can be had from warriors.. I would probably go primal instead. For CC it's probably a good idea to forego CoC and get things like Crushing Prison (the improved version also increases damage output on staggered targets).

IMO I'm pretty dissappointed with the Elemental tree in this game, BUT am very happy with the other trees.

[godlike13]

Graunt wrote...

3. Battle Synergy
Requires: Level 5
Requires: Rally
While this
mode is active, the warrior and other party members within range fight
as a cohesive unit that is deadlier than the sum of its parts. (This
mode cannot be used at the same time as Bravery.)
Defense: +5% per companion, for all party members
Damage reduction: +3% per companion, for all party members
Size: 10m
Reserved: 30% of stamina
Cooldown: 10s
Type: Sustained mode

???
By "Damage reduction" is it damage one takes in that is reduced, or damage one dishes out that is reduced?

Modifié par godlike13, 12 mars 2011 - 07:45 .

[Graunt]

godlike13 wrote...

Graunt wrote...

3. Battle Synergy
Requires: Level 5
Requires: Rally
While this
mode is active, the warrior and other party members within range fight
as a cohesive unit that is deadlier than the sum of its parts. (This
mode cannot be used at the same time as Bravery.)
Defense: +5% per companion, for all party members
Damage reduction: +3% per companion, for all party members
Size: 10m
Reserved: 30% of stamina
Cooldown: 10s
Type: Sustained mode

???
By "Damage reduction" is it damage one takes in that is reduced, or damage one dishes out that is reduced?

The party takes less damage.  Although I'm finding Battle Synergy to be too situational to bother with.  The range on it is abyssmally small...much smaller than the description reads, and it's only really any good in the "oh look ANOTHER WAVE!" suprise drops on top of your party.

Ave can now AoE stagger enemies.

She can do that anyway with Shield Bash.  What exactly are you using as your attack anyway in conjunction to Cleave, the crappy skill in the SnS tree that knocks everyone back, or are you talking about Assail?  Two activated abilities every 30/15 seconds that have a very steep investment cost that replaces one that doesn't.  Vanguard is still a great tree to invest in though, especially if you're already using abilities like Goad for threat since that replaces some damage skills.

Modifié par Graunt, 12 mars 2011 - 10:59 .

[Seloun]

I think people are regarding Fearless Synergy a little too lightly. Yes, it's fairly short range, but this generally isn't tactically a downside (it mainly means you have to micromanage a bit more). The real key is that it works really, really well - probably because it's redirecting 50% of everyone's threat to the tank, so the tank typically has way more than just 50% of the threat of one party member. This means that most of the time you have to do nothing besides stand near the tank for every mob to automatically attack the tank. It's considerably more effective than trying to Taunt/Goad targets onto the tank, it's completely passive, and it's not dependent on the tank's personal DPS to hold threat.

Modifié par Seloun, 12 mars 2011 - 11:49 .

[Graunt]

Seloun wrote...

I think people are regarding Fearless Synergy a little too lightly. Yes, it's fairly short range, but this generally isn't tactically a downside (it mainly means you have to micromanage a bit more). The real key is that it works really, really well - probably because it's redirecting 50% of everyone's threat to the tank, so the tank typically has way more than just 50% of the threat of one party member. This means that most of the time you have to do nothing besides stand near the tank for every mob to automatically attack the tank. It's considerably more effective than trying to Taunt/Goad targets onto the tank, it's completely passive, and it's not dependent on the tank's personal DPS to hold threat.

It doesn't work, really really well on Nightmare against enemies that have area of effect knockdown, breath weapons, charges and rock tosses.   In fact, you literally have to be kissing the backside of something like a Golem with your characters for it to even reach when Aveline is on the other side (which is where you want her to be).  Threat redirection doesn't help if it means your party is going to be taking unnecessary damage, even though part of it's redirected, it's still more damage to the group overall.
 

Being "completely passive" doesn't mean much if you have to treat all of your ranged classes like melee, and move every single one of them before they can even attack -- this is not conducive to an enjoyable playing experience.  Battle Synergy has it's uses, but it's too situational.  Threat in this game is just as terrible as it was in Origins.  In fact, the only reason to take SnS over a Two-Handed build is because the SnS can't accidentally kill your party on Nightmare.  If your Hawke is a Two-Handed build, that's a little different.  Bioware shouldn't pretend that this is an MMORPG and that each fight should consist of the Warrior running in and spending lots of extra time on enemies before the rest of the group can even attack.  Even then they simply don't give your Tank enough active abilities to work like they should.

Modifié par Graunt, 12 mars 2011 - 12:13 .

[Malfustheone]

Graunt wrote...

It doesn't work, really really well on Nightmare against enemies that have area of effect knockdown, breath weapons, charges and rock tosses.   In fact, you literally have to be kissing the backside of something like a Golem with your characters for it to even reach when Aveline is on the other side (which is where you want her to be).  Threat redirection doesn't help if it means your party is going to be taking unnecessary damage, even though part of it's redirected, it's still more damage to the group overall.
 

Being "completely passive" doesn't mean much if you have to treat all of your ranged classes like melee, and move every single one of them before they can even attack -- this is not conducive to an enjoyable playing experience.  Battle Synergy has it's uses, but it's too situational.  Threat in this game is just as terrible as it was in Origins.  In fact, the only reason to take SnS over a Two-Handed build is because the SnS can't accidentally kill your party on Nightmare.  If your Hawke is a Two-Handed build, that's a little different.  Bioware shouldn't pretend that this is an MMORPG and that each fight should consist of the Warrior running in and spending lots of extra time on enemies before the rest of the group can even attack.  Even then they simply don't give your Tank enough active abilities to work like they should.

So what you are saying is, battle syndergy works best with other melee party members when you are focus firing a single target, or defending a narrow passage way with the tank able to effectively block off the enemies from reaching the party.

[Tempest]

Okay, ever since I first played WoW I LOVED to tank. I LOVED playing the defensive player who doesn't do alot of dmg but makes up for it by having and using "aggro" generating abilities. DA:O really lacked aggro generating abilities in the first few levels of the game. How did they make up for it without every fight turning into a cluster ****? Easy, the guy with the most armor was always targeted 1st. This way aggro was far easier to control without too much worry about the squishies. This was removed in DA2 (or no where near as obvious) and now every fight turns into an annoying cluster ****. I don't expect every fight to go smoothly, but nor should I expect every other fight to be out of my hands the first 20 sec of the fight. Even if this "was" supposed to play as an MMORPG. At least in those games it gave you the option of having the Tank go in first to generate aggro easier and efficiently. Every other fight in DA2 is a random fight and enemies everywhere, with a tank who doesn't get any effective "threat" generating abilities until about 5+ hours of getting pounded isn't "balance" as some believe.

[Fredwood]

I didn't spec her into Battlemaster, I should have I guess, my 1st play-through was a Shadow archer with Varric spec'd to Scoundrel to direct people to Aveline (and to treaty people away from Merrill), and Merrill as my Damage dealer, the few that aggro'd next to Merrill didn't last long because of her Fury of the Ehlfin stuff.