16 réponses à ce sujet

[XX55XX]

I am trying to enjoy the game.

The graphics are great, the sound design is much improved (people actually sound like they are talking in a cave now!), the music is good, and the gameplay is absolutely wonderful. I also love the voiced protagonist and the dialogue wheel. Origins was a bit clunky here and there, but the redesigned skill trees and the faster, more visceral gameplay receives much applause from me. All of these are immense improvements and whoever was behind these specific improvements should be patted on the back.

Yet, my satisfaction from the game is limited so far. My primary concern, is, well, the poor quality of the writing. I am shocked that the writing team was responsible for all of this. After all, I found the writing to the strongest element in BioWare's games, surpassing that of many other games. All of the BioWare games I have played in the last ten years or so - Knights of the Old Republic, Jade Empire, Mass Effect, Dragon Age: Origins, and Mass Effect 2 - had excellent writing. Why doesn't DA2 continue that tradition?

Firstly, the narrative lacks focus, and I am finding it difficult to understand why Hawke does so many random "favors" for people. Plus, how do they even relate back to the main plot (if there is one?) Why is Hawke motivated to do all of these favors? For money? This feels like Scarface or Goodfellas all over again. Seriously, money is one of the cheapest ways to motivate people, and as a result, I often find Hawke's motivation to be less than relatable.

Of course, if you select the dialogue options to make it seem as though you are in it to help people, then what motivates Hawke to help all of these random people? Oh, the fact that he wants to "help." Right.

Additionally, dialogue with your companions has been seriously stripped down, even when compared another BioWare game which has received some criticism over limited companion dialogue, Mass Effect 2. Most of the conversations with my companions last less than two minutes each. From these conversations, it is difficult to even gauge why some of these people (like Isabela and Merrill) even follow you at all. These conversations are nowhere near as deep, engaging or revealing as the conversations in Origins. They feel more like the dialogue you might hear between friends in a pub. In Origins, I cared for everyone in my party, and it is thanks to the lengthy in-game conversations that I was able to find out what motivated everyone to stay in my party, despite many hardships and setbacks.

I would say that the only three-dimensional character I have met so far is your Uncle Gamlen. He is guy who fell into a gambling habit and if you decide to sympathize with him, he personally admits that is he was wrong and is even a little sorry over the debacle. Now, that was seriously deep. I wished that sort of writing extended to my companions instead.

Additionally, besides the completely one-dimensional characters, the dialogue itself is cringe-worthy. Like for example:

Merrill: Why do they call this a brothel? Does it have something to do with broth?
Isabela: Oh, I want to touch your chest hair, Varric.

These lines are so juvenile that it couldn't have been BioWare's writers who wrote these cringe-worthy lines. But they did. These lines only serve to reinforce how one-dimensional and un-dynamic the characters are - Merrill is a complete ****** and Isabela is all about sexual innuendo and little else. Hell, even Oghren, for all of the nasty comments he made, was never so succinct about sex when he talked about it - he kept it subtle. And plus, he had other personal issues that helped flesh out his character - the issue with his wife Branka, and later, Felsi.

In comparison, Isabela is completely one-dimensional and serves only as a pair of big breasts for male players to oggle at. There are few redeeming qualities - what motivates her to stay with Hawke? To have fun? That is such a weak reason. It's never really explained.

Sorry for the long, big rant, but I just needed to get this off my chest. Any rebuttals are welcome. But, I believe many of you will agree with me - the writing in DA2 simply does not constitute BioWare's best effort. In fact, it is one of their poorest efforts in nearly a decade. It is still a level above other video games, sure, but it is still disappointing compared to even BioWare's most recent effort - Mass Effect 2.

Instead of calling it "Dragon Age 2," BioWare should have called it "Random Adventures with Hawke and Friends!" and it still would have served the game well for what it is: a dungeon crawler with repetitious levels and little narrative and a bunch of one-dimensional characters whose sole purpose is to offer little nuggets of cheap laughter for those who would laugh at any two-bit humor offered.

Modifié par XX55XX, 10 mars 2011 - 02:09 .

[What a Twist]

I don't entirely agree on the companions. I liked most of them. I do however agree on the story's lack of focus. I often found myself wondering why I was doing something, even when I read all the text and asked question is dialogue. Overall, I'm fairly happy with the game. I don't think the experience was fulfilling as origins, but the combat was a lot better.

[NinjaRogue]

I am guessing you wanted "Hawke gets to the Deep Roads for free"? or "Hawke kills this person and becomes all powerful" I think the game is amazing and has a good story.

ps.
I am not through ACT 1 yet so yeah lol:P

Modifié par NinjaRogue, 10 mars 2011 - 02:19 .

[Trackrtar]

Hmm... I see it as I am crafting the story being told. So if my Hawke is doing all this stuff it is for reasons like he is a good person or he likes to be paid well or he likes to hurt people.

[Ascendra]

And I wonder how was Alistair multidimensional?
I'm really loving DA2 characters and I think they are more complex than those of Origins. I also love the whole idea of friend/rival thing, since now you actually have to work to build a relationship, instead of simply bribing your way into their bed if all else fails

[RosaAquafire]

XX55XX wrote...
Additionally, dialogue with your companions has been seriously stripped down, even when compared another BioWare game which has received some criticism over limited companion dialogue, Mass Effect 2. Most of the conversations with my companions last less than two minutes each. From these conversations, it is difficult to even gauge why some of these people (like Isabela and Merrill) even follow you at all. These conversations are nowhere near as deep, engaging or revealing as the conversations in Origins. They feel more like the dialogue you might hear between friends in a pub. In Origins, I cared for everyone in my party, and it is thanks to the lengthy in-game conversations that I was able to find out what motivated everyone to stay in my party, despite many hardships and setbacks.

I am absolutely loving DA2, I love the writing, I love the characters, I love the story. Better than Origins on the whole, I'd say.

But I do agree with this.

In some ways, it's mitigated by the fact that the characters all react to the main plot CONSIDERABLY more than the characters in Origins. They put in their piece way more often. But it's not really a trade-off for getting to really delve into stories of Fenris's time serving Danarius, or finding out about Isabela's history and her marriage. I think there should have been about twice as many companion conversations.

... but there were. In the opposite path. And I think this is some of the issue. I looooove having friendship and rivalry both! It makes relationships more interesting and discourages metagaming! But between the wonderful words in quests, and the wonderful words on the other side of the spectrum, there just aren't enough words left in the budget to give every character the Origins treatment. Each one only gets around four or five real conversation trees that you see during the game.

That sucks.

Modifié par RosaAquafire, 10 mars 2011 - 03:45 .

[drhys23]

mind you, i'm just about to head to the deep roads so i'm not too far in, but i agree a little with the op. it feels a little disjointed. subjectively, i understand why my hawke would want to do all the mage side quests and in order to make the others make sense i ratonalized that maybe he was just living life in the city and adventuring. there certainly are enough side quests, so much so that i'd forgotten about the main quest to prep for the deep roads. in my playthrough it feels like quite a few months have passed after the first time leap, yet bertrand is still hanging out in hightown. i really dont care about the main plot at this point, i mean after all they found the will for the estate already anyways, rather the side quests and hanging out with party members at the hanged man after seems more interesting. i'm really enjoyng the experience, but think it could have been structured a little better.

[habitat 67]

Ascendra wrote...
I'm really loving DA2 characters and I think they are more complex than those of Origins.

I agree. Everyone's a little less Glee, a little more somber this time, with a definite edge of complexity. It took me more than a few hours to figure it out, because sometimes I'm dense like that. 

The same can be said for the plot. It's less melodramatic, in your face, but quite amazing once you "adjust your dial" for it.

[habitat 67]

Ascendra wrote...
I'm really loving DA2 characters and I think they are more complex than those of Origins.

I agree. Everyone's a little less Glee, a little more somber this time, with a definite edge of complexity. It took me more than a few hours to figure it out, because sometimes I'm dense like that. 

The same can be said for the plot. It's less melodramatic, in your face, but quite amazing once you "adjust your dial" for it.

[bghs2003]

I think what really hurt the narrative in the first act was when you find the will that leaves everything to your mother. At that point there is no reason to invest a small fortune in the expedition, at least until it is clear whether or not your family can get back the mansion and status. The goal of going on the expedition is to get enough money and resources to provide security for your family and protect either yourself or your sister from the Templars, once to will opened another path to that goal that did not require massive personal risk the story suffers greatly.

You are right that most of the npc character motivations are very weak.

Varric- Makes sense, he has heard of what you did the year before and wants to on the expedition to make sure he gets out alive. Also need more money to finance it and figures, with his help, you can do that too.

Bethany - Needs protection from Templars and has no status on money to protect herself should she be discovered. hates living with uncle and want better life for mother. Help protect he brother/sister.

Carver - Kind of resents you, but not enough to want the Templars to take you or die in an adventure, dislikes living with his uncle and wants mother to have a better life. Wants to be a badasss adventurer?

Merrill - Share of the loot to pay bills? If you are nice to her, to help out a friend?

Anders- On any quest that directly helps mages it makes sense for him to come along, I have no idea why he would stay with you if you are not supportive of mages or why he would leave his practice for other quests.

Isabella - just because?

Fenris - money so he doesn’t starve to death waiting for and plotting his revenge?

Aveline – Still grateful for helping her get out of Lothering, also, she is bored. I have no idea why they would let he stay in the guard or become captain if she is always in your group and absent from her job.

[darkrose]

"Merrill: Why do they call this a brothel? Does it have something to do with broth?"

Did they really re-use that line? It wasn't that funny when Alistair said it the first time my Warden went to the Pearl.

[Apostian]

One thing that is really bugging me is the killing of main characters. First, you lose a sibling in the opening. Sets the mood a bit and gives the rest of your family something to talk about. I'm fine with this.
Then, you lose the other sibling in the Deep Roads. Other than the fact that this was just unnecessary, the way in which they're killed is so silly. It was Bethany for me and she just randomly dies from a darkspawn sickness on the way out. There was no precursor to this. If they had to kill her, make it from a fatal wound from the last fight. That at least has some weight to it.
Then, and this was when I had to turn it off for a while, they killed the mother. This was also totally unnecessary but thats not what bugged me. It's HOW they killed her. All of the sudden, they turned the game into a slasher flick and you literally see your mom's head sewed to different body parts. For the life of me, I cannot understand why this is in the game.
I'm not trying to be all negative, I've been having a lot of fun. It's just that the writing has had me cringing from time to time.

[viverravid]

You only lose a sibling in the deep roads if you take them with you. I found Carver completely useless as a party member so he was still around for the finale on my first playthrough. He plays an interesting role which you can probably predict if you think about it.

Also, OP - the writing gets WAY better from Act 2 on. Story suddenly gets focus.

[TeamRyan]

bghs2003 wrote...

I think what really hurt the narrative in the first act was when you find the will that leaves everything to your mother. At that point there is no reason to invest a small fortune in the expedition, at least until it is clear whether or not your family can get back the mansion and status. The goal of going on the expedition is to get enough money and resources to provide security for your family and protect either yourself or your sister from the Templars, once to will opened another path to that goal that did not require massive personal risk the story suffers greatly.

You are right that most of the npc character motivations are very weak.

Varric- Makes sense, he has heard of what you did the year before and wants to on the expedition to make sure he gets out alive. Also need more money to finance it and figures, with his help, you can do that too.

Bethany - Needs protection from Templars and has no status on money to protect herself should she be discovered. hates living with uncle and want better life for mother. Help protect he brother/sister.

Carver - Kind of resents you, but not enough to want the Templars to take you or die in an adventure, dislikes living with his uncle and wants mother to have a better life. Wants to be a badasss adventurer?

Merrill - Share of the loot to pay bills? If you are nice to her, to help out a friend?

Anders- On any quest that directly helps mages it makes sense for him to come along, I have no idea why he would stay with you if you are not supportive of mages or why he would leave his practice for other quests.

Isabella - just because?

Fenris - money so he doesn’t starve to death waiting for and plotting his revenge?

Aveline – Still grateful for helping her get out of Lothering, also, she is bored. I have no idea why they would let he stay in the guard or become captain if she is always in your group and absent from her job.

Yeah...

Merril - Small town girl moves to the big city and she essentially only has your number. of course you'll be hanging out alot.

Anders - your pretty right with the anti mage quests,

Isabela - pretty sure she was using you initially to help her out, then realized that you were going to get into a lot of trouble/adventure and meet people that may find that relic she was looking for. and if she found that relic having you around to get it back wouldn't hurt either.

Fenris - got me there! 

Aveline - the way she puts it in the story is that she gets to decide her routes so that lines up with everything you do because it happens in the vicinity of kirkwall, the deep roads happens in a transitional period where she's not really a guard or the quard captain.

But overall the companions don't really need a reason to follow you beside the fact that they are your friends and associates. Is there a reason you hang out with your friends besides the fact that you are friends, does there have to be some economic value to what ever you do? do you need some form of compensation for your time with them?

[Foolsfolly]

I liked the gameplay and the characters very much. The cringe worthy lines the OP quoted actually made me laugh.

What can I say? I liked it.

Isabella has no reason at all for being a companion. None. She's always on the move, she's hunted by humans and Qunari, and she craves to go back to the sea. Why she is still in Kirkwall? And she never puts down any roots either. It's odd.

However, the main plot was lacking. The first act's entire plot is....you're poor, save money for the mission. Act 2 on the other had had the Viscount charge you with resolving the Qunari problem. That had a drive to it and interesting characters and moments. At the end of that Act I both disliked Isabella for being so selfish AND regretted the whole thing....all that bloodshed could have been avoided. It was so close to being avoided but it was out of Hawke's hands.

The finale for Act 3 has that too. No matter what, no matter which side, there's massive bloodshed and people'd like to say that it was out of Hawke's hands (like his mother's death too). But Act 2 did it better. There were solid motivations and you couldn't say that Isabella running off with the book was out of character. I can easily say the First Enchanter turning into a Harvester was out of character...it's even out of lore context!

Also you're right-on with the companion dialogue scenes. They were too short, too pointless, and we never got to know the characters. Some Merrill conversations seemed completely pointless, she saw someone get mugged? That's worth a conversation? Not how she knows Flemeth? Why she choose to become a blood mage? You saw someone get mugged....ok, whatever.

Merrill - Share of the loot to pay bills? If you are nice to her, to help out a friend?

I got the feeling Merrill was kicked out of the Dalish clan and she's so painfully shy and naive that she'd rather hang out with people who routinely get into huge nasty dust-ups than meet new people. She's not great at critical thinking, as evidenced by her striking a deal with the Pride Demon.

Then, you lose the other sibling in the Deep Roads. Other than the fact that this was just unnecessary, the way in which they're killed is so silly. It was Bethany for me and she just randomly dies from a darkspawn sickness on the way out. There was no precursor to this.

Wesley died of it in the beginning. Your mom begs and pleads for you not to take her. And her death is completely avoidable if you didn't take her or took Anders with you.

Sure, I didn't know that either when I first played the game. I just listened to the mom...because I didn't like Carver and it was foreshadowing something and I wanted to see where that'd go.

It ended up with me and Carver on opposite sides of the finale. Felt cool. Although, I didn't get to kill him which actually upset me. I really wanted to kill him. Did not like that character.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 15 mars 2011 - 09:22 .

[Everwarden]

Aww.. was hoping to agree with you.

But I can't. I liked the cast of characters in DA2 just as much as the one in Origins. It was the story and setting that ruined the experience for me.

[Lurchibald]

I liked the game and it's writing was great for the most part but.... the ending reeked of "More paid DLC to come to enjoy this game fully and get a proper/fuller ending" so many questions left unanswered.