254 réponses à ce sujet

[Anyrandomname]

I noticed that hawke seems more powerful then my warden ever was. He might have killed the arch demon but my Hawke could kill an orge in one hit. In terms of what they did, there have been 5 blights and lots of wardens who died fighting the archdemon. Only one man/woman ever started a mass rebelion of the circles. He also killed a massive high dragon (more or less as powerful as the archdemon) , fought the qunari leader in a duel and won and then killed an incredibly powerful knightcommander who had an incredible lyrium weapon.

[RPGrogue]

Warden didnt really do a whole lot in the big picture, If he would have fell fereldan would have fell and the other wardens would have stopped it.
Hawke started a world war, you only think hes less epic cause you dont get to see the big war yet

Hawke > Warden

[M_arc]

RPGrogue wrote...

Warden didnt really do a whole lot in the big picture, If he would have fell fereldan would have fell and the other wardens would have stopped it.
Hawke started a world war, you only think hes less epic cause you dont get to see the big war yet

Hawke > Warden

Uhm The Warden saved the entire world of Ferelden from the blight, reunited races all across the land and single handedly killed the Archdemon, challenged the legendary Flemeth and made the antichrist by sleeping with Morrigan.

Hawke was just a guy at the wrong place at the wrong time, joining an inevitable conflict lol

[RPGrogue]

M_arc wrote...

RPGrogue wrote...

Warden didnt really do a whole lot in the big picture, If he would have fell fereldan would have fell and the other wardens would have stopped it.
Hawke started a world war, you only think hes less epic cause you dont get to see the big war yet

Hawke > Warden

Uhm The Warden saved the entire world of Ferelden from the blight, reunited races all across the land and single handedly killed the Archdemon, challenged the legendary Flemeth and made the antichrist by sleeping with Morrigan.

Hawke was just a guy at the wrong place at the wrong time, joining an inevitable conflict lol

I disagree, the warden was a guy in the wrong place at the wrong time, if he didnt kill the archdemon sure fereldan would have fallen, but other wardens in different countries would have killed it. Now the god baby thing, you have a point there, but he did not save the world, just his country not a lot of other countries respect.

Hawke basicly started a war with the quin, and help set motions to event which caused a world war

fine i take back my last statment: EPIC= Warden > Hawke / IMPORTANCE= Hawke > Warden

[Nialos]

M_arc wrote...

RPGrogue wrote...

Warden didnt really do a whole lot in the big picture, If he would have fell fereldan would have fell and the other wardens would have stopped it.
Hawke started a world war, you only think hes less epic cause you dont get to see the big war yet

Hawke > Warden

Uhm The Warden saved the entire world of Ferelden from the blight, reunited races all across the land and single handedly killed the Archdemon, challenged the legendary Flemeth and made the antichrist by sleeping with Morrigan.

Hawke was just a guy at the wrong place at the wrong time, joining an inevitable conflict lol

Both Hawke and the Warden were guys/gals in the wrong place at the RIGHT time. Keep in mind who rescued them both.

[arathor_87]

Anyrandomname wrote...

I noticed that hawke seems more powerful then my warden ever was. He might have killed the arch demon but my Hawke could kill an orge in one hit. In terms of what they did, there have been 5 blights and lots of wardens who died fighting the archdemon. Only one man/woman ever started a mass rebelion of the circles. He also killed a massive high dragon (more or less as powerful as the archdemon) , fought the qunari leader in a duel and won and then killed an incredibly powerful knightcommander who had an incredible lyrium weapon.

My warden is much more powerful than Hakwe. I can one shot Ogres with my Warden warrior on hard/nightmare. My gear and mace have alot of stamina and my strength stats was like a god. I could almost solo bosses on harder/nightmare without kiting him as I had to do with Hakwe and the arishok.

And about the blight, the rest of Thedas didn't know about the blight in Ferelden and if my warden didn't stop the Archdemon she would have been stronger and stronger.

So my Warden ars superior and epic..

Modifié par arathor_87, 19 mars 2011 - 10:04 .

[Kerilus]

My mage Warden can rip an army of Darkspawns apart just by walking through them. While tanking.

[Melra]

Warden, lul! Some people here seem to have wrong idea of Ferelden. It's not some huge world, it's a rather small kingdom. Orlais would've been more the prepared to take care of the Blight, if Warden had failed.

My Hawke can eat the Warden and his buddies for breakfast. That's a fact! Yes, it's my Hawke. It's not Hawke, it's -my- Hawke. As much as my Shepard is -my- Shepard.

[SkittlesKat96]

Yeah I agree that the Warden is more epic, he saved all of Ferelden and made massive changes to Ferelden and he even prevented the Blight from becoming worse and going through all of Thedas. Ferelden civilization (and possibly Thedas, POSSIBLY) would be completely wiped out if it wasn't for him.

On the other hand though Hawke made some great accomplishments too, he prevented the Qunari invasion and stopped the Qunari from spreading their influence and power, made Kirkwall better and changed things for templars and mages everywhere in Thedas, for all we known in the grand scheme of things Hawke is making a massive difference.

EDIT: Gotta also take in account that the Grey Warden may have only just saved Ferelden, if he didn't stop it a big powerful stabilized place like Orlais could have started a massive campaign to rid all of the Darkspawn.

EDITEDIT: Hawke triggered a world war (or at least I think it will be a world war) too, maybe we'll see how much he's done in expansion or sequel.

Modifié par SkittlesKat96, 19 mars 2011 - 10:46 .

[arathor_87]

You don'tsee the whole picture here. Sure Ferelden is a small country, but if the Warden had failed to defeat the archdemon, the broodmother and meet the architect and all the other things they would have become stronger and stronger. And since they didn't know about the blight it would have affect other countrys in Ferelden.

Instead of fighting like a man my Hawke ran like a chicken. He had some nice moves but even close to my warden. He did less in 10 years than my Warden did in one year.

To do all the things my warden did is more epic than helping Anders and Meredith start a war. Hawke was just a puppet in Anders or Merediths mastermind game.

And you can hear that Varric exaggerate the story of Hawke so he sound more heoic than he actually is. Varric tells his story about Hawke from a book that he wrote, ofc he exaggerate the story. In DA:O all that the Warden does happen without the exaggeration n from someone.

Modifié par arathor_87, 19 mars 2011 - 10:51 .

[Wulfram]

Blights have momentum. If the Warden hadn't stopped it at Ferelden, then there'd soon have been a whole bunch of new broodmothers popping out 'spawn in numbers that would give even Orlais pause.
There's also the problem that the Orlesian wardens probably wouldn't have got an opportunity to kill the Archdemon - it was willing to take the risk of direct confrontation to eliminate 3 of them, knowing that doing so would leave the whole kingdom open to it, but if the wardens came in force it would simply retreat, or allow them to be overwhelmed by its horde as happened at Ostagar.

[TexasToast712]

RPGrogue wrote...
Hawke basicly started a war with the Qunari.

Chris Priestley or David Gaider (I forget which one) said in another thread that the Arishok broke the Lloymerran accords (Neutrality agreement rules) which means that the rest of the Qunari wont go to war. The Arishok is only one of three leaders that lead the Qunari.

Modifié par TexasToast712, 19 mars 2011 - 10:57 .

[Emzamination]

The warden would mop the floor with hawke.

[TJSolo]

NinjaRogue wrote...

He started the collapse of the Chantry, where the Warden saved the world, Hawke decided to give the world the perverbial middle finger.

Hawke was there but Hawke didn't do any of that, which as the entire point of Varric's story.

Modifié par TJSolo, 19 mars 2011 - 11:27 .

[Dean_the_Young]

b09boy wrote...
Difference.  The plot-advancing events in Origins happened due to the Warden.  The plot-advancing events in DA2 happen irregardless of Hawke.

The plot-advancing events in Origins happened regardless of the Warden. It never mattered what you chose, or how good/evil you were, or who you supported: it always went to the exact same Landsmeet/end-game scenario. The Landsmeet was fixated about everyone but the Warden: in effect, the Warden could only serve as Alistair's or Anora's advocate, as it was they, not the Warden, who would resolve the Civil War. The engdame proceeded exactly the same regardless of what reinforcements you could summon: the choices made no difference, nor did who you sided with advance the plot in different ways.

When it comes down to it, 'The Warden' can't even be treated like a singular necessary person for the same reason the Warden doesn't even refer to a single specific person. The Warden refers to the whole breadth of potential Wardens, personalities, and act... none of which were dependent on a single model for success. The Warden, as an individual, was irrelevant because just any Warden would 'make the decisions' that would save the day. You can simply parrot Alistair's opinions as well, and they succede as well as the vilest, most evil person you can role play.

When literally anyone can replace the Warden and the narrative can procede just as well, it really isn't the Warden, as a person, who is driving things. The Warden could have been replaced by Hawke, and lose nothing for it: there was no inherent decision only the Warden would make or was capable of, because there was never even a single decision only the Warden would make. Anyone could make the decisions, and  with any attitude, and it would have turned out the same.

If that's not irrelevance to progression, nothing is.

Um...not without taking out Fereldan and a good chunk of probably two other nations over the course of a few decades, at the least.

Ferelden? Sure. The rest? Arguable at best: it's not like the rest of the world was just going to be taken by surprise and civil

But then, since there was never any choice or even availability to fail or see Ferelden fall, none of the Warden's choices really mattered for that now, did they? It was always inevitable to save Ferelden if you just played the game.

Exactly.  Even if we didn't directly choose these events, the Warden is responsible for them coming to pass as they did.

And Hawke was responsible for the acts of his story coming to pass as they did. Hawke was a part of the crisis events that catapulted him into fame. He might not have started those events (except when he did help to do just that), but the Warden can't claim the different either.

Except for where they didn't.  Bartrand's expedition would have gotten funding one way or another.  Varric's too slippery not to be able to scrape together a couple investors or money lenders.

Citation needed.

 Hell, you even meet another character very much interested in investing into the expedition.

And who was already denied.

There are other parts: Hawke's super-warrior abilities to find an alternative route to the idol in the first place, rather than following Bartrand's intent to start claring.

The Qunari invasion was a doomed venture. They cause about as much damage as they were capable of given the extremely low numbers they had at their disposal, killing the leader of the city.  Hawke was simply the executioner to a doomed man as they had nowhere near the numbers to protect themselves from the thousands who would have crushed the couple hundred present. 

Citation needed again. Armies have very, very rarely needed absolute majority over the cities they conquer... nor is there much of a sign of 'thousands' of Templars. Forces, we should remember, have historically and routinely been disproportionately ineffective against the Qunari for various reasons.

The hundred of Qunari currently present wouldn't have needed to stay alone for long: everyone in the game treated this as the potential outbreak for a very significant resumption of greater war, and no one in-game treated this as an inherently doomed or helpless attempt. With the politicians hostage, the Qunari already mitigated much of the city. The parts that weren't, the Templars and those they controlled, weren't necessarily strong enough to evict the Arishok and his soldiers.

Much the same with Meredith or Orsino.  They become what they are regardless and would have been hunted down and killed off for what they are and have done regardless of Hawke.  And the grand war?  Everyone rebels regardless of his decisions or influence.

Which was rather the same thing the Warden had to deal with. Everyone rebels, everyone has their own problems, regardless. The Warden's choices have never been preventative: if you do this, this plot even will or will not happen. The Warden's choices have always been reactive: the same problems come up regardless of prior decisions.

There is NOTHING Hawke does to influence the world and NOTHING of importance he accomplishes which would not have  been accomplished without him.  His role is to have been the one present when it all happens.

Citation... explicitly refuted by the game.

[b09boy]

Wow Dean...sorry, not going to bother. That's some pretty epic level denial and justification you've got going for yourself.

[Medhia Nox]

Hawke runs away from the Blight - my Warden stays and fights. I know some people think cowards are more realistic - but I'm not interested.

[HyperLimited]

Hard to tell.

The Warden slayed/helped slay an Archdemon and ended/help end a blight.

Hawke ignites a large scale war between the mages and the templars.

I feel that's kind of even. 

[AlexXIV]

I really don't think this is a good discussion. I have taken part in it up there etc., but really, does it even matter who is epic and not or more or less? I kinda like Hawke, and maybe even more than the Warden. Maybe only because Hawke is new and ... did ... have a family. Whatever.

[Soltan Heatwave]

The only thing I have to say is my Warden = level 35 + with all the extras.
Hawke = level 23. Difference is over 12 levels. Warden kicks Hawke's **** into next centry.

[DarkNova50]

I think that, had Hawke been put in the same situation as the Warden in Ferelden, that she (or he) could have been just as capable, if not more so, not to mention far more charismatic.

Way to overlook some obvious talent, Duncan. You honestly took that blockhead Jory over Hawke!?

[Nialos]

DarkNova50 wrote...

I think that, had Hawke been put in the same situation as the Warden in Ferelden, that she (or he) could have been just as capable, if not more so, not to mention far more charismatic.

Way to overlook some obvious talent, Duncan. You honestly took that blockhead Jory over Hawke!?

That's pretty much the crux of this argument. -Any- of the origins could have been the Warden - they were as such because of circumstance. Because of Duncan.
*Mage: Duncan is looking for -any- recruit - your mage fits that role.
*Human Noble: Looking for someone else, gets you instead.
*City Elf: Came looking for you because of mother.
*Dalish Elf: Came looking for the mirror, got you out of convience.
*Dwarven Noble: There to check for signs of the Blight - gets you because of Bhelan.
*Dwarven Commoner: You rig the provings, prove yourself capable - Duncan didn't care about you until then.


Replace Hawke with the Warden, and nothing would have changed at all. Hell, give Hawke force persuade (coercian) and he would have filled the shoes nicely.

So perhaps the argument shouldn't be who's more epic, but who's luckier?

[arathor_87]

DarkNova50 wrote...

I think that, had Hawke been put in the same situation as the Warden in Ferelden, that she (or he) could have been just as capable, if not more so, not to mention far more charismatic.

Way to overlook some obvious talent, Duncan. You honestly took that blockhead Jory over Hawke!?

But Hawke didn't. He ran a like a coward to escape Ferleden, instead of fighting like a man. Yes, my Warden was saved by Flemeth, but Ostagar was invaded by a huge darkspawn army, Hawke was saved from an ogre (and the ogres in DA2 looks like a cute baby compared to the ogres in DA:O, and 10 darkspawns who also look like baby compared to the badass darkspawn in DA:O). He's a coward and not epic. On the other hand Anders actions started the war, Hawke was nothing else than a greedy little punk who's story is way exagreggated by a dwarf named Varric and his book.

BUT the game was OK, but DA:O was much better with a better lore and story.

[Dean_the_Young]

b09boy wrote...

Wow Dean...sorry, not going to bother. That's some pretty epic level denial and justification you've got going for yourself.

A pity you feel that way. I felt we were having an interesting discussion on the lack of meaninful choices in Origins, given how they never really changed the game.

But I must be in denial... or missing the game of the year edition in which the Warden causes the plot to progress as oppossed to resolving unpreventable problems other people start time and time again, all to get to the same end game.

[Dean_the_Young]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Hawke runs away from the Blight - my Warden stays and fights. I know some people think cowards are more realistic - but I'm not interested.

"How dare you get out of a doomed warzone and take your family somewhere safe? Coward!"


For a rather meaningless definition of coward.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 20 mars 2011 - 01:38 .