254 réponses à ce sujet

[Nialos]

Lyrium figurine. The Warden is upstaged by Flemeth from the get-go, if you choose to look at it like that. So is Hawke.

... In other words, it's all about how you look at it.

[Parrk]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Get - so I'm not only upstaged by two maniacs - I'm upstaged by a glass figurine.

:  )  I see the humor in that.

Actually though, whatever is in that idol is of Archdemon-level-power.

Or quite possibly greater.

It is an important distinction to make that it is not Anders' actions that ultimately ensure war, but rather Meredith's reactions to them.

Modifié par Parrk, 18 mars 2011 - 02:10 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Ranbir wrote...

The Warden because I AM THE WARDEN.

So... far less epic, then?

[vigna]

The Warden at least saved his brother--if noble. All Hawke saved was some bum of an uncle.

[Lithuasil]

Nialos wrote...

Lyrium figurine. The Warden is upstaged by Flemeth from the get-go, if you choose to look at it like that. So is Hawke.

... In other words, it's all about how you look at it.

I blame the Orlesians.

[Dean_the_Young]

Since the Warden-Noble had nothing to do with Teagan surviving...

[Medhia Nox]

I don't think it's necessarily "How you look at it."

Hawke doesn't do a single thing in this game. (spoilers follow)

1) He doesn't get his family to Kirkwall - Flemeth does.
2) He can't prevent the Qunari rebellion, or join them, and he's forced to stop it (that last part I don't necessarily mind - I was forced to stop the Archdaemon too)
3) He can't stop Isabela from taking the book (except for romancing her - really?!)
4) And the WORST - he can't stop that moron Anders from blowing up the Chantry and preventing a world war.
5) The Warden can't even save his own damn mother.

Hawke is a tool - he's a failure and a loser and it has nothing to do with what the player decides.

====

The Warden is nothing like that.

Each Warden can alter a large amount of smaller details in Ferelden. Free the mage circle or destroy it entirely. Make Andraste's Ashes a holy site - or allow the High Dragon attack Ferelden. Have an OGB or not. Keep Alistair or take on Loghain (kill or spare Loghain) and on... and on... and on...

[Dean_the_Young]

If you cherry-pick your selection of examples to plot points, of course you'll fit your desired conclusion. We can just as well reverse a few words and find equivalents.

1) The Warden doesn't get themselves and Alistair out of the Tower: Flemeth does.
2) The Warden can't stop any of the plot-progression quests, at any point. You never have the opportunity to advert subsequent plot quests.
3) The Warden can't stop Wynn from leaving if you destroy the Ashes. The Mage Warden can't save Jowan from continuing to screw up, the Dalish Warden from letting your friend become a Shriek, the Human Noble can't save Ionia, the Dwarven Noble can't avoid being blamed for the murder of the Brother... etc.
4) The Warden can't stop the entire Landsmeet from occuring, the attack on Denerim from unfolding the exact same way as always, the attack and butchering of Amaranthine... or any end-game event. That's never been an option.
5) Well, yes. The Warden can't save their own mother.

[SkitSkit]

The Warden, yeah i'll pay that, did more, but dragon age 2 isn't as "Epic" game. Comparing DAO to DA2 is like comparing Lord of the Rings to... i can't really think of any fantasy political thrillers... Shindlers list if the jews were elves and the ****s were orcs, bad example... no forest gump; Comparing Lord of the Rings to Forest Gump. both excellent movies but different, and one was a trilogy... this analogy is breaking down, but basically DAO is a pure fantasy epic where we must throw the ring into the fires of Moldor (or kill the archdeamon) where as DA2 is a political thriller, crossed with a biography crossed with some epicness... like Star Wars!

Ok, DAO is lord of the rings and DA2 is Star Wars, but both parts, but the first act isn't bad like episodes 1, 2 and 3. the only connecting factor between the two games is the lore.

so in the end the question as to which one has the better story is completely personal, and warts and all i still prefer Star Wars to Lord of the Rings

and if you're confused you're not alone

[arathor_87]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Hawke is a witness if a story dictated by Isabela and Anders (who are the Main characters). He isn't epic at all.

Agreed. Its a good game but he's not epic at all.

And, without the Warden Anders would have been dead, and without the Warden Anders and Justice would  never have reached Kirkwall.

And without Anders this would never had happen. Anders is the mastermind behind all this!  ; )

[1Nosphorus1]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Hawke is a witness if a story dictated by Isabela and Anders (who are the Main characters). He isn't epic at all.

Quoted for truth, even the boss battles were laughable, the Arishok took a good 10-15 minutes of kiting around a room while throwing chain lightning/stonefist and waiting for cooldowns, my warden would've just slapped him round the face (Dirty fighting) and backstabbed that sucker for a few seconds and bwam, dead.

[arathor_87]

And Varrics story about Hawke was exaggerated. Everything he tell you is from a book, he made Hawke more important than he actually was. The things you do in the game is a story from a dwarf and his book. : )

Maybe he lied to Cassandra just to fool her?

[arathor_87]

1Nosphorus1 wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

Hawke is a witness if a story dictated by Isabela and Anders (who are the Main characters). He isn't epic at all.

Quoted for truth, even the boss battles were laughable, the Arishok took a good 10-15 minutes of kiting around a room while throwing chain lightning/stonefist and waiting for cooldowns, my warden would've just slapped him round the face (Dirty fighting) and backstabbed that sucker for a few seconds and bwam, dead.

With the power my warden has after Wardens keep and Awakening he would have one shotted the Arishok.

With Hawke I had to kite and wait for cooldowns. If the Arishok got close to me he would have kicked me so hard that  my Hawke would have whished that he never was born.

[Medhia Nox]

So Dean - what choices does Hawke get exactly?

Oh, I get to choose who to romance!

[b09boy]

Wait, this is a discussion? Hawke is a **** stain compared to what the Warden accomplished. Hell, you could make the argument that the Warden had more influence in DA2 than Hawke did simply by getting Anders and Justice together. Hawke's influence is nonexistent. He didn't start some grand change or some such. He was just there to witness the start of it and Varric's exaggerated storytelling blew it up from there. Let's compare.

The Warden, during the course of a couple years, ended a blight before it had consumed even a single nation, determined the leadership of two kingdoms, uncovered two legendary artifacts almost thought of as myth, and ended a major abomination invasion. These are just the basic things, without getting into the optional stuff and expansions such as killing Flemeth or allowing the recovery of a number of lost thaigs or even becoming king/queen or becoming basically a dwarven god or giving the dalish a new home or freeing the circle in Fereldan from the templars.

Hawke watched one of the Warden's former companions start a war, ended the primary threat of it within the city, then abandoned said city to the continuing war to disappear.

[Nialos]

Lithuasil wrote...

Nialos wrote...

Lyrium figurine. The Warden is upstaged by Flemeth from the get-go, if you choose to look at it like that. So is Hawke.

... In other words, it's all about how you look at it.

I blame the Orlesians.

I blame Sandal. I bet he knew everything all along and he didn't lift a finger - he just scratched himself.

[Dean_the_Young]

Medhia Nox wrote...

So Dean - what choices does Hawke get exactly?

Oh, I get to choose who to romance!

How did you resolve the Qunari invasion? How did you resolve the Templar/Mage opposition? How did you resolve the matter of the Dalish clan outside Kirkwall? Were you a participant in the slaughter of the Grand Cleric, or not? Is the City Guard the better for your involvement, or not? How did you handle the blood mages? The Dreamer? 

Simply because a plot progresses regardless does not mean there were no choices. Indeed, Origins and Awakening together demonstrate this most of all: no matter what 'Big Decisions' you made, they always have, and always will, continue to get you to the exact same end point. A Tower in Denerim, the Mother's layer... they are no different. They are not avoidable.

Dragon Age, and Origins in particular, were always about the illusion of choice as if it impacted the story. The choices you had never changed the game or the progression, only your experience with altered lines and cameos down the line. It is no different whether those cames come from supposedly 'big' decisions or smaller ones.

Do not ask 'what choices were there in 2', as if there weren't any. Ask, rather, what choices in Origins actually impacted the plot of the game. Was there ever a way to fail the Blight? Was it ever possible to get radically different missions afterwards? Before you rail against how nothing in DA2 made a grand difference, what difference in the story did Dalish vs. Werewolf actually make?

[Medhia Nox]

Sandal was basically telling you the quality of the game Nialos. You can't blame him that you weren't getting his revelation.

[Clonedzero]

vigna wrote...

The Warden at least saved his brother--if noble. All Hawke saved was some bum of an uncle.

i played human noble like 3 times. your brother disappears, i said "hey i wanna find my brother" and both alistair and morrigan is like "nah, he's probably dead lol" and thats the end of it till the very end of the game when he shows up in the throne room and is like "yeah i chilled in a shack in the woods the whole time"

how is that saving his brother? lol thats ignoring him till he saves himself.

[Cypher0020]

Ok on a slightly weird note... my Warden is the Knight-Commander of the Order now? Uhhh... I never played Awakenings but... my Warden either opted to stay with Alistair... or go with Sten...pretty sure I stuck with Alistair....

So is that reason? If not....is that the generic ending?

[Nialos]

What, that I'd enjoy it for what it was? Didn't need Sandal for that. Besides, you don't even get to 'talk' to him until halfway through the game.

Not my fault he didn't bend reality to 'warn' me before I purchased the game. Anyway, Dean usually does a good job of saying what I want to say before I say it.

[Nialos]

Cypher0020 wrote...

Ok on a slightly weird note... my Warden is the Knight-Commander of the Order now? Uhhh... I never played Awakenings but... my Warden either opted to stay with Alistair... or go with Sten...pretty sure I stuck with Alistair....

So is that reason? If not....is that the generic ending?

The Warden-Commander could be from Orlais if your Warden died or if you never played Awakening.

[Parrk]

You point to minor individuals who stir up trouble and claim that the story is about them? I would hate to have played this game and have come to the conclusion that this were a tale of a greedy slvt and a possessed madman.

I think you're a bit too attached to the notion of dragons as super-important in fantasy tales.

I would love to see this focus group...

"The game received poor ratings initially, but when we replaced the reaper models with cheesy dragon skins.....then it was epic!"

DAO was no different from this game choice-wise, you could check the boxes at every major quest, or your only choice was not to continue.

The warden required legions of the most powerful warriors in all of ferelden. Hawke don't need no stinking werewolves, or golems, or four NPC lieutenants at her back. Hawke doesn't need the legion of the dead, or a platoon of dalish hunters,

Hawke is never arrested, stripped naked and Jailed, they know better.

Hawke never forced us to spend hours in the fade, she handles her fade business in 3 mins.

The warden stumbles to the completion of a great task, whereas Hawke IS great.

All of this could have been avoided I suspect, if Meredith had simply turned into a dragon before the fight, then people would be all "zomg teh dragunz! this is soooooo epic!"

[Lithuasil]

Nialos wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

Nialos wrote...

Lyrium figurine. The Warden is upstaged by Flemeth from the get-go, if you choose to look at it like that. So is Hawke.

... In other words, it's all about how you look at it.

I blame the Orlesians.

I blame Sandal. I bet he knew everything all along and he didn't lift a finger - he just scratched himself.

Suspect indeed. The letter in quentins lair was signed with an O though, so we should remain vigilant around any orlesia... wait, where exactly does sandal come from?

[arathor_87]

Parrk wrote...

You point to minor individuals who stir up trouble and claim that the story is about them? I would hate to have played this game and have come to the conclusion that this were a tale of a greedy slvt and a possessed madman.

I think you're a bit too attached to the notion of dragons as super-important in fantasy tales.

I would love to see this focus group...

"The game received poor ratings initially, but when we replaced the reaper models with cheesy dragon skins.....then it was epic!"

DAO was no different from this game choice-wise, you could check the boxes at every major quest, or your only choice was not to continue.

The warden required legions of the most powerful warriors in all of ferelden. Hawke don't need no stinking werewolves, or golems, or four NPC lieutenants at her back. Hawke doesn't need the legion of the dead, or a platoon of dalish hunters,

Hawke is never arrested, stripped naked and Jailed, they know better.

Hawke never forced us to spend hours in the fade, she handles her fade business in 3 mins.

The warden stumbles to the completion of a great task, whereas Hawke IS great.

All of this could have been avoided I suspect, if Meredith had simply turned into a dragon before the fight, then people would be all "zomg teh dragunz! this is soooooo epic!"

With all the respect, you can't compare Hawkes tiny fade with the Wardens one. The Wardens fade was much bigger and more dangerous. Hakwes only had two desire/pride demons.

You can't compare what Hawke did in one city over 10 years, and what the Warden did in one year. At least the Warden didn't fail we he needed to convince the people as Hawke did with the mages and templars.

The warden unite a whole country and Hawke can't take control of a city. He can't prevent one person like Anders to change the history. Anders changed history, Hawke didn't.

The qunaris couldn't go home and they said that they didn't have enough people to take over Kirkwall. Hawke didn't have a mission, he was just greedy.

And Varric exagregate ther story of Hawke.