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[Nialos]

Lithuasil wrote...

Nialos wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

Nialos wrote...

Lyrium figurine. The Warden is upstaged by Flemeth from the get-go, if you choose to look at it like that. So is Hawke.

... In other words, it's all about how you look at it.

I blame the Orlesians.

I blame Sandal. I bet he knew everything all along and he didn't lift a finger - he just scratched himself.

Suspect indeed. The letter in quentins lair was signed with an O though, so we should remain vigilant around any orlesia... wait, where exactly does sandal come from?

The Deep Roads. Which connect to Orlais, too, if I remember correctly. CLEARLY. Sandal is in league with the Orlesians.

But I think we've derailed this conversation a little.

[Lithuasil]

Nialos wrote...


The Deep Roads. Which connect to Orlais, too, if I remember correctly. CLEARLY. Sandal is in league with the Orlesians.

But I think we've derailed this conversation a little.

Nevermind, I think we're onto something important here.

[Dean_the_Young]

And the Warden's Fade was one of the most criticized parts of the first game.

Player feedback appreciated!

The Warden most certainly could fail to convince people when he/she needed to. Especially when you didn't spam the Coercion skill, but even in a number of the main plot lines. Origins, from an outsider's perspective, was as much about other people shaping history as the Warden: Duncan, in who he saved. Loghain, in the betrayal and Civil War. Alistair and Eamon, for putting forward a challenge to the Landsmeet. Uldrid, Howe, the Dwarves, even the Keeper and all their actions. The Warden was always about cleaning up the history of everyone else.

[Clonedzero]

less epic in the classical sense sure.
i find hawke a much more interesting character though, mostly because the warden is an empty vessel rather than an actual character.

[Medhia Nox]

You call a rebellion and a terrorist act "stirring up trouble"?

Anders and Isabela do the only major things in the game.

"Hawke" Hey, I just went on a dungeon crawl - what did you do today?
"Isabela" Oh, nothing much - just stole the most holy text of the Qunari sparking off a rebellion that will threaten to destroy Kirkwall.
"Hawke" Oh - well, that's something. Anders - I'm sure you had a boring time in your clinic.
"Anders" Actually Hawke I'm leading the mage underground - and I'm deceiving you into assisting me build a bomb that will blow up the Chantry starting a war throughout all of Thedas.
"Hawke" Yeah - well, I get to choose which one of you to romance.

[Nialos]

The more people try to defend either, the more I simply see the similarities.

[Medhia Nox]

"Warden" What did you do today Alistair?
"Alistair" I sat around cracking jokes while you made every decision for us.
"Warden" Mighty kind of you - how about you guys?"
"Wynne" Gave some advice but sat in the background mostly.
"Sten" Disagreed constantly - attacked you once, you established dominance - and I followed you.
"Liliana" Followed you because you weren't some edgy weirdo who needed to defile some ashes.
"Shale" The pigeons! I am so close to defeating the pigeons!
"Dog" BARK!
"Zevran" Did I tell you how beautiful you are? No? Well, then let me tell you...
"Oghren" ALE!

"Morrigan" Well, once we're done here - I will do something pretty huge in an expansion, but that won't overshadow what you're doing here. You don't have to pay for content hearing how cool I am.

"Warden" Good, let's go do this folks.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 18 mars 2011 - 03:52 .

[Dean_the_Young]

By that line of argument, the Warden didn't do anything significant either.

The Warden was never responsible for any of the conflicts the Warden was involved in. Every mission was someone else's dispute turned into someone else's problem anyway, most of which would have resolved themselves regardless. The Warden wasn't even necessary to kill the ArchDemon or father the God-Baby: Alistair and Loghain were capable of that.

Heck, the Warden wasn't even necessary to resolve the Blight: had Ferelden fallen, the entire rest of the world would have been ready to face the Blight, and without any such petty Civil War-ing to kill off the Grey Wardens. The Blight would have ended regardless, and could have ended regardless of the Warden.

[Parrk]

Hawke versus Warden is not a worthy proxy for comparing the two games (which essentially this is).

Hawke casts: Sarcastic Wit (rank 6)
Warden casts: Pensive Head Tilt (rank 5)

The warden allowed you to do more in the way of convincing yourself that the character was whatever you wanted them to be, whereas Hawke in a known quantity to some degree.

Modifié par Parrk, 18 mars 2011 - 03:55 .

[Medhia Nox]

My Warden made the Ultimate Sacrifice - he actually did something in Origins. My Hawke just watched helplessly as other people did things around him.

That's a fine story - but not something I'll pay for twice.

====

Edit: 

And I actually don't just the two games. I don't like ME 2 either. I don't like Bioware's new style - and if asked if they're RPGs - I'll say no.

I play tabletop rpgs - and if these CRPGs don't try to at least emulate them storywise in some fashion, I won't enjoy them.

If a DM ever pulled this crap with me at my table (making the NPCs more important) I don't know a single player that would play in that game long.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 18 mars 2011 - 03:57 .

[Parrk]

Medhia Nox wrote...

My Warden made the Ultimate Sacrifice - he actually did something in Origins. My Hawke just watched helplessly as other people did things around him.

That's a fine story - but not something I'll pay for twice.

so they could have swayed you by simpy demanding that you or one of your friends has to die in the end?

[KnightofPhoenix]

I don't understand the point of such threads tbh. But I'll play along.

I feel the Warden is more epic, because at least on paper, his choices can have more impact. Yes, illusion of choice, the same can be said about Hawke's choices. They only become really relevant once we put in some imagination and rping in there. And because the Warden's story was on a bigger scale. That said, Hawke was pretty epic too. And both their choices can have an impact on a large scale.

[Medhia Nox]

Perfect example (Spoilers):

I had originally believed that two of my decisions had led to my mother's death:

1) When I told her to start courting. That I just wanted her to be happy.
2) When I chose to kill the blood mage looking for the Kirkwall Killer.

When I believe that her death was actually my fault, based on my decisions, I felt it was powerful. When I found out it happens no matter what you do - I felt it was trite. Much as I perceive the entire story of DA 2

[PirateT138]

Well, since Hawke can do a 40inch standing vertical with full plate and a 2 hander, I'm going to have to give the edge to Hawke, because that mofo can defy physics.

Seriously though, my Warden was WAY more epic. He got s*** done. Blight? 1 year later, problem solved.

[Lithuasil]

Medhia Nox wrote...



I play tabletop rpgs - and if these CRPGs don't try to at least emulate them storywise in some fashion, I won't enjoy them.

If a DM ever pulled this crap with me at my table (making the NPCs more important) I don't know a single player that would play in that game long.

So basically, you're saying Pnp is bad, unless the Pc's are the most important people in the plot? 

[_Aine_]

I think they were both epic, the illusion of choice was better hidden in DA:O though. With DA2 it was almost like finding the wizard behind the curtain before the show was over. You kind of knew what was going to happen ahead of time, which takes the edge off. I think both stories were strong, DA:O for whatever reason just seemed to have the drama in more of a synergy creating something in the end that felt more impactful. At least, for my rogue playthrough in DA2 that is true. Perhaps it varies a bit by choices...

[Medhia Nox]

Lithuasil - that's off topic, but if your PCs aren't the most important people in the plot - I'm not sure what kind of DM that is, but I wouldn't spread your opinion too far on the 4th Edition forums. You'll get crucified. They take PC relevancy pretty seriously over there.

[EDarkness]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Warden most certainly could fail to convince people when he/she needed to. Especially when you didn't spam the Coercion skill, but even in a number of the main plot lines. Origins, from an outsider's perspective, was as much about other people shaping history as the Warden: Duncan, in who he saved. Loghain, in the betrayal and Civil War. Alistair and Eamon, for putting forward a challenge to the Landsmeet. Uldrid, Howe, the Dwarves, even the Keeper and all their actions. The Warden was always about cleaning up the history of everyone else.

Well, that's pretty much how I played my Grey Warden.  Basically, he was the cleaner.  Everyone else was screwing things up, so they'd call him in to clean it, or sometimes he'd have to smack some guys down to get things done.  Generally, he was a nice guy about it, but he didn't take any crap.  Though, my Warden pretty much shaped history by fixing everyone else's problems, then solo'd the Archdemon and walked away.  He squashed the Broodmother in Awakenings, thrashed some golemns in the Deep Roads, then Stepped through the portal with Morrigan.  His goal was to ultimately to correct the mistake of going through the ritual with Morrigan.  He figured it would bite him on the butt in the future.  Best to be on the ground floor...just in case. 

Hawke just didn't have that same feel.  I felt more like Sherlock Holmes than Mr. Fixit.  Which is fine, but Hawke just didn't have much pull like the Warden did.  The Warden was just a ball of fire.  Which was just more interesting to me.  I REALLY hope they bring him back.

[Lithuasil]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Lithuasil - that's off topic, but if your PCs aren't the most important people in the plot - I'm not sure what kind of DM that is, but I wouldn't spread your opinion too far on the 4th Edition forums. You'll get crucified. They take PC relevancy pretty seriously over there.

Well... me for one. And then there's every good dm I've ever played with. Roleplaying is about being part of a world, not rolling dice and pretending to be ubercool because you killed everyone in said world :/

[Morogrem]

What a Twist wrote...
Is Hawke less epic than the wardeN?

no

hes much less cliche than the warden however.

Hawke: rose to power from nothing, eventually becoming the defender of a city

The warden: rose to power in a story weve heard multiple times to overcome a threat that coldve just as easily been orcs or demonic followers or any number of other villains that have been employed in the fantasy genre. really the only way DAO differentiated itself with ther fantasy stories is the political aspect, which even then, we've seen done before. Dont get me wrong I liked DAO. but even with all its faults (and there are MANY) DA2 is much more original.

Modifié par Morogrem, 18 mars 2011 - 04:11 .

[Nialos]

Lithuasil wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

Lithuasil - that's off topic, but if your PCs aren't the most important people in the plot - I'm not sure what kind of DM that is, but I wouldn't spread your opinion too far on the 4th Edition forums. You'll get crucified. They take PC relevancy pretty seriously over there.

Well... me for one. And then there's every good dm I've ever played with. Roleplaying is about being part of a world, not rolling dice and pretending to be ubercool because you killed everyone in said world :/

This is pretty much what this thread boils down to, I think. Hawke and the Warden both appeal to two different demographs when it comes to stories and heroes. Those who prefer to be at the center of everything, the epitome of heroism - that's the Warden's area. Those who prefer a character who isn't as grand, instead being the go-between for the story at large - that's Hawke.

They're both 'epic'. Just in different ways.

[Pr3ying M4nt15 360]

Hawke is Epic on levels of which Commander Shepard is Epic.

[GehnTheGrey]

@ Medhia Nox

Those dialogue posts or yours were pure genius my friend. Had me laughing heartily.

[flakmeister_mcg]

Hawke was a gullible idiot who surrounded herself with sociopaths who used her for their own ends. The things that happen around our Champion are completely out of her control and often she is just tricked by people more clever and sinister than herself.

Flemeth tricked her into resurrecting her. Anders tricked her into gathering materials for the WMD and to distract the Arch Bishop while he planted it. Isabella played her like a fiddle and used her to acquire the relic which caused a massacre to be enacted. Orsino tricked her into believing that he was a sincere and nice non-blood mage. Meredith at least was just bat**** crazy, but, again, because Hawke is an idiot and doesn't see this, she allows another tragedy to befall Kirkwall.

[Medhia Nox]

I'm sorry - I can play a down to earth character. Let's say I'm a farmer.

If I roleplay farming - I can, for months even. I could roleplay farming the crops... gathering crops... seeding the fields. Dealing with issues like pests, fallow fields, and weather.

But when a druid comes along and suddenly trivializes everything I've done - then I don't say: "Wow, that NPC was awesome." I say - "Am I actually "playing" this? Or just listening to the DM talk about his cool NPCs."

If you guys like taking second fiddle to the NPCs more power to you.

If I want to read about someone's NPCs I'll read a book.

=========

Edit: 

Conversly - I do want to hear about cool NPCs. I enjoy Varric - he's awesome. I enjoy Aveline, and (spoiler) I love the storyline to help her get a husband. They seem to be collaborators in the story - Anders and Isabela are the main characters and I and the other NPCs just watch what they do.

Except for romancing - I get to choose who to romance.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 18 mars 2011 - 04:44 .