254 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

It depends on how you define a main character, then.

For most people, the main character is the person the story primarily revolves around. And the story revolves around Hawke: not Kirkwall, not the events of Kirkwall, not Thedas and the events occuring in it.

Hawke. As he rises in power due to reacting to a lot of different circumstances beyond his control, just like the Warden.

[Parrk]

By this logic we are left to assume that Logain is the main character of origins.

I still am unsure that "someone who does bad things which the protagonist reacts to" is a correct definition of Main Character though.

[Icy Magebane]

Hawke is a complete loser... he couldn't change one city, but the Warden changed an entire nation!

[arathor_87]

Haha

[Nialos]

And then Hawke is credited with changing the nation that was changed - and the world. See how that works?

[LobselVith8]

What a Twist wrote...

So, I could'nt help but notice that hawke seems to have done less in more time. To keep this short(because we both know you're reading this during a loading screen) I'll just stick to the big stuff.

An apostate Hawke can side with the Kirkwall Circle and end up inspiring the Circle mages across Thedas to break free from the Chantry, which hasn't been done in a millennia. I think that's a pretty big deal since it's an irrevocable change of the status quo that even the Hero of Ferelden's Magi boon wasn't able to overcome in Dragon Age: Origins.

[b09boy]

Parrk wrote...

By this logic we are left to assume that Logain is the main character of origins.

I still am unsure that "someone who does bad things which the protagonist reacts to" is a correct definition of Main Character though.

Not really.  Loghain causes much of what happens.  But it is still the Warden who accomplishes everything.  It's the Warden who organizes the armies, determines the fates of two kingdoms, etc.  It's the Warden who stops a blight.  Loghain fills the role nicely as that of primary rival and secondary antagonist.

LobselVith8 wrote...

What a Twist wrote...

So, I could'nt help but notice that hawke seems to have done less
in more time. To keep this short(because we both know you're reading
this during a loading screen) I'll just stick to the big stuff.

An
apostate Hawke can side with the Kirkwall Circle and end up inspiring
the Circle mages across Thedas to break free from the Chantry, which
hasn't been done in a millennia. I think that's a pretty big deal since
it's an irrevocable change of the status quo that even the Hero of
Ferelden's Magi boon wasn't able to overcome in Dragon Age:
Origins.

Except that it wasn't Hawke who inspired this.  Again, it's Anders.

[Insomniak]

arathor_87 wrote...

The warden is more epic.

[snip]

* Killed Flemeth (If you choose to do that). Flemeth more powerful than the Arishok, Meredith and all the DA2 characters togheter.

Well, considering that Flemeth knew exactly what the Warden was going to do ("I have an appointment to keep") and Hawke brought her back in DA2 (via the amulet and ritual), I was under the impression that she let the Warden "kill" her. It was all part of her master plan - i.e. she played the warden (but I can only guess at her ulterior motives)

So you could probably take that off the Warden's "epic list"

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Overall, I think that, yes, the Warden's story was more epic, but Hawke had a greater impact on Thedas.

Modifié par javajedi217, 18 mars 2011 - 06:00 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Parrk wrote...

By this logic we are left to assume that Logain is the main character of origins.

I still am unsure that "someone who does bad things which the protagonist reacts to" is a correct definition of Main Character though.

If you were addressing me, then no. It would lead to the opposite. Origins did not revolve around or focus mostly on Loghain.

Loghain got disproportionate focus compared to non-Main Character, as befitting his role as (one of) the chief antagonist, but the game as a whole followed and focused far more on the Warden.

[Lithuasil]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I'm sorry - I can play a down to earth character. Let's say I'm a farmer.

If I roleplay farming - I can, for months even. I could roleplay farming the crops... gathering crops... seeding the fields. Dealing with issues like pests, fallow fields, and weather.

But when a druid comes along and suddenly trivializes everything I've done - then I don't say: "Wow, that NPC was awesome." I say - "Am I actually "playing" this? Or just listening to the DM talk about his cool NPCs."

If you guys like taking second fiddle to the NPCs more power to you.

If I want to read about someone's NPCs I'll read a book.
 

Forgive me if I'm calling you out on this (and further derrailing the thread this way), but is this an overblown attempt to troll, or have you actually never played anything in PnP that went beyond classic dungeon-crawl boredom?

[LobselVith8]

b09boy wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

An apostate Hawke can side with the Kirkwall Circle and end up inspiring the Circle mages across Thedas to break free from the Chantry, which hasn't been done in a millennia. I think that's a pretty big deal since it's an irrevocable change of the status quo that even the Hero of Ferelden's Magi boon wasn't able to overcome in Dragon Age: Origins.

Except that it wasn't Hawke who inspired this.  Again, it's Anders.

True, Anders made the initial strike, but it's Hawke who can actively side with the Kirkwall Circle as an apostate Champion of Kirkwall and fight a horde of templar soldiers, taking on not only a Harvester but a possessed Knight-Commander. That's why Varric and Cassandra address Hawke as a hero of the mages if Hawke sided with the mages as an apostate Champion.

[graavigala85]

Wardens fixed everything in few months,  Hawke made bad things worse in 10years

[b09boy]

LobselVith8 wrote...

b09boy wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

An apostate Hawke can side with the Kirkwall Circle and end up inspiring the Circle mages across Thedas to break free from the Chantry, which hasn't been done in a millennia. I think that's a pretty big deal since it's an irrevocable change of the status quo that even the Hero of Ferelden's Magi boon wasn't able to overcome in Dragon Age: Origins.

Except that it wasn't Hawke who inspired this.  Again, it's Anders.

True, Anders made the initial strike, but it's Hawke who can actively side with the Kirkwall Circle as an apostate Champion of Kirkwall and fight a horde of templar soldiers, taking on not only a Harvester but a possessed Knight-Commander. That's why Varric and Cassandra address Hawke as a hero of the mages if Hawke sided with the mages as an apostate Champion.

Problem being, this doesn't amount to anything.  Whether you side with the mages or the templars, helped Anders or not, both the mages and the templars rebel from the Chantry.  It is a plot point entirely out of Hawke's control.  You can make Hawke more important within that plot point, a potential figurehead due in large part to Varric's storytelling, but what happens does so regardless of his/her involvement.

If you turn this around on the Warden, the same doesn't remain true.  You instead get The Darkspawn Chronicles.

[1Nosphorus1]

Medhia Nox wrote...
"Hawke" Hey, I just went on a dungeon crawl - what did you do today?
"Isabela" Oh, nothing much - just stole the most holy text of the Qunari sparking off a rebellion that will threaten to destroy Kirkwall.
"Hawke" Oh - well, that's something. Anders - I'm sure you had a boring time in your clinic.
"Anders" Actually Hawke I'm leading the mage underground - and I'm deceiving you into assisting me build a bomb that will blow up the Chantry starting a war throughout all of Thedas.
"Hawke" Yeah - well, I get to choose which one of you to romance.

Brilliant, my thoughts exactly, I felt like I was just there to keep the party members alive while they ran rampant around the city causing the plot changes while I eventually get to witness it, although in that sense why the hell was the Chantry seeker looking for me? What did I do? Help Anders unknowingly? Choose one of two options which leaves the same result?

Hawke had a pretermined personality too, i'm pretty sure he mentions the chantry and the maker several times in dialogue/combat, something I didn't like.

[Medhia Nox]

I actually would have been happier playing Varric. If I went into it knowing I was a witness - I would have looked at it differently. Maybe I'll try that for a second play - completely ignore the "Champion".

When he goes into his home I'll just say it's Varric telling him to go get the mail or something.

[Nokternul]

The Warden is essentially a sperm donor of convenience. In fact, a lot of the accolades people are giving him credit for were by way of convenience alone--including becoming a Grey Warden.

Hawke single-handedly defeated Arishok in head to head mortal combat.

Anders can make a bomb, that doesn't make him epic.
Isabela can steal a book, that doesn't make her epic.

Also, when you consider the archetypal epic hero as it applies to epic movies/stories, they are almost always heroes who rise from little to become much--and they never achieve everything by themselves, without help or outside influence. This fits Hawke moreso than it fits the Warden.

Modifié par Nokternul, 18 mars 2011 - 10:24 .

[Wulfram]

Nokternul wrote...

The Warden is essentially a sperm donor of convenience.

That's a bit awkward for her.

Hawke single-handedly defeated Arishok in head to head mortal combat.

Mine didn't.

[Nokternul]

Wulfram wrote...

Mine didn't.

L2epic?

[Stakis]

My warden will always be more epic than bioware´s commander shepard with beard

[specter7237]

Hawke's conundrum is more complicated, because there isn't a convenient Dragon's head lying around for him to plunge his sword into. No convenient swarm of carbon-copy orcs that everyone will praise him for  hacking through. Kirkwall's conflict is people fighting people, so no matter which side he chooses he will be labeled a monster by some.  Arguably the human conflict can feel more epic.  Because no matter what side wins or loses, the cost is always high.

Modifié par specter7237, 18 mars 2011 - 11:33 .

[Wulfram]

Stakis wrote...

My warden will always be more epic than bioware´s commander shepard with beard

Hawke's not Shepard with a beard.  Shepard isn't a total failure.

[gombie]

warden was responsible for ending a blight. so yea hes more epic. what kinda silly question is that?

hawke is a better character though.

[Dean_the_Young]

b09boy wrote...

Problem being, this doesn't amount to anything.  Whether you side with the mages or the templars, helped Anders or not, both the mages and the templars rebel from the Chantry.  It is a plot point entirely out of Hawke's control.  You can make Hawke more important within that plot point, a potential figurehead due in large part to Varric's storytelling, but what happens does so regardless of his/her involvement.

If you turn this around on the Warden, the same doesn't remain true.  You instead get The Darkspawn Chronicles.

Darkspawn Chronicles being non-canonical in the first place. (No one says you have to win, after all.

The plot was never in anyone's control for either game. The plot-advancing events were always irregardless of decisions as well.

It's certainly erronious to say that Hawke wasn't critical to his own plot, on the same grounds that the Warden is critical for their own victory against the ArchDemon. Yes, the ArchDemon was going down regardless. Yes, the choices you could make never could change the most critical events: you could never get around saving Eamon, starting or ultimately triumphing at the Landsmeet, or the battle of Denerim. That doesn't mean you weren't involved, and weren't critical to them and how they resolved.

Hawke matters. Ultimately, Hawke matters for the unavoidable choice of Mage vs Templar, just as the Warden ultimately mattered for fighting the ArchDemon. In the process, Hawke mattered a great deal for the advancement of the plot, and the plot's accessoraries: funding Bartrand's expedition to get the idol, managing the rogue Chantry fanatics, resolving the Qunari invasion. These things, as irrevocable as they were, did matter, did have variation, and did need Hawke.

Is Hawke's story narrower in scope than the Warden's? Of course: the Warden traveled a nation, and many groups. Hawke's story, the fundamentals of it, is also a fair bit shorter, even without being restrained to a single city-state. A smaller scale does mean smaller-scale choices... not that killing the Arishok of the Qunari is any small butterfly decision, or as if whether Hawke is hero/nemesis to the Templars or the Mages makes no difference to the world.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Is Hawke's story narrower in scope than the Warden's? Of course: the Warden traveled a nation, and many groups. Hawke's story, the fundamentals of it, is also a fair bit shorter, even without being restrained to a single city-state. A smaller scale does mean smaller-scale choices... not that killing the Arishok of the Qunari is any small butterfly decision, or as if whether Hawke is hero/nemesis to the Templars or the Mages makes no difference to the world.

I don't think it will be that relevent actually. If the Arishok goes, that he means he has Isabela. And she escapes with the tome 3 days later. That's disgraceful and I'd wager that the Arishok is going to lose his job and be replaced. That's the impression I get from the Qun anyhow. They already kicked THE commander of all their armies out because of his failure once. They gave him a chance to fix it and then he screws up again. I don't see him holding his position and he'd probably resign voluntarily. Sadly

And seeing how the Seekers (the Chantry secret police essentially) are looking for Hawke to help them, regardless of his choice, I don't think the last choice is that important. But I could be wrong.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 18 mars 2011 - 11:59 .

[AlexXIV]

I don't really see where Hawke is actually epic.

The Warden barely survived Ostagar. With only Alistair. Then they go to Lothering and Redcliffe and end the undead invasion and even cure the arl after making a side trip to the Circle of Mages and solve the abomination problem there and find the sacred ashes of andraste. Then they go to Orzammar, kill a mad paragaon, destroy the anvil of the void and decide who's to be next king. Then they go to the Brecillian forest, lift the werewolf curse, and recruit the Dalish. Then they do nothing less than going to Denerim to challenge the current regent and most powerful man of ferelden. Then they go to the final battle against the blight and the archdemon, the most dangerous threat to all life in Thedas. And the fifths blight ends after only one year and with only 3 wardens involved (counting riordan). And that's only if the Warden decides to do the ultimate sacrifice. If not, the story goes on in Amaranthine where the Warden meets the very ... being ... that started the blight.

Hawke flees from the blight to Kirkwall. There Hawke spends the year (in which the warden did most of everything mentioned above) working as a merc or smuggler until they get into Kirkwall and make an expidition in the deeproads where they find the very thing that throws Kirkwall into chaos. After they return they are rich, keep killing stuff until the Qunari rise up. Hawke fights to the castle, and the Arishok challenges him/her to a duel which the qunari loses. That's year 4 after the Blight. 3 years later Hawke gets drawn into the mage/templar conflict and has to decide to fight for the losers or winners. Hawke loses in any way though, since if Hawke wins, the templars rule in Kirkwall, and if he/she loses, the templars rule in Kirkwall. At best we can say that thanks to Hawke Meredith died there, who probably only freaked out because of the idol the expedition brought from the deep roads . Which kinda tells us that Meredith asking Hawke to help restore the order in this mess was her last mistake.

If you compare this, this question is not really hard to answer.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 19 mars 2011 - 12:12 .