254 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

For the Qunari, I have my hopes. They're relentlessly pragmatic in some ways, and not in others. In many respects it's less about results and more about satisfying the demands of the Qun: what that demand is often confounds us all. We could certainly justify it making a difference.


As for the final choice, I'd disagree. It matters in, say, a similar sense that the Warden's Treaty Quest decisions mattered, in that it will change the tone of the world without dictating the story to follow. In this case, WHO Hawke is revered by, and hated by, could certainly change the nature of relations in Thedas in the lead-up to war.

If Hawke is the hero of the Magi, the Hawke might be the one person who's assurances the Circles might trust. The Templars hate him, but (from the Seekers' perspective) Hawke could be the one to agree to a compromise, and convince the Mages as their trusted advocate. Across the world, The Champion of Kirkwall is synonymous with defending the unjustly accused, and the mage rebellions as a whole have more support for the sort of example he set: mercy, justice, and the ability to face the Templars.

If Hawke chose the Templars, though, he is the only one who they might heed in their zealous crusade. Hawke is the Chantry's angle for re-establishing control over the Templars, while to the Templars and much of Thedas Hawke represents something else entirely. Protection from the evils of magic: the intwined ruthlessness and virtue of the Templars. The might and justice of Andraste, both against the blood mages and even corrupt Templars. The mages see the Champion as a symbol of oppression, but much the rest of the world lauds Hawke as reliable safety against evil.


Functionally, in terms of dictating the next game? No choice to date will change what will be. In terms of helping set an overall tone? In Mass Effect, the analogy might be the galactic tone depending on whether you saved the Council or not. Gameplay-wise: meaningless. Environment wise, shaping how you see the lore? Incredible. Just try reading Cerberus Daily News with the memory and context of a galaxy that trusts and accepts humanity, and a galaxy in which the Humans are feared, hated, and tensions are massive.

[XX-Pyro]

Liked them both for different things. Would rather play as Hawke though.

[stephen1493]

The Warden crowned a dwarf king, decided whether or not innocent men and women will be made into golems to fight the darkspawn, "decided" the fate of a dalish clan, mopped up after Cailan in Ostagar, found the supposed ashes of the most influential woman of all of Thedas, issued an annulment completely or stopped an annulment completly (something Hawke couldn't do), Beaten Flemeth in Mortal Kombat, Crowned the Fereldan King/Queen, and lead the army that stopped the Blight saving all of Thedas from a war that would last decades. Oh, and he most likely was named the Champion of Redcliffe in the process

Hawke chased some qunari away from a city, and helped start a war.

Is this even debatable?

[FALCONGTX]

The Warden much more epic than Hawke

[AlexXIV]

XX-Pyro wrote...

Liked them both for different things. Would rather play as Hawke though.

Especially because this can't be the whole story. I mean its ... lame.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
As for the final choice, I'd disagree. It matters in, say, a similar sense that the Warden's Treaty Quest decisions mattered, in that it will change the tone of the world without dictating the story to follow. In this case, WHO Hawke is revered by, and hated by, could certainly change the nature of relations in Thedas in the lead-up to war.

Oh I definitely agree with this yes. The tone will change and I think it would leave us some space for rping and imagination.

Good example vis a vis Mass Effect. Could have been better executed in ME2 however, but that's another topic.

[Dean_the_Young]

Stephen, I could certainly make it far less glamorous, if you'd like.

The Warden chose between two short angry white guys with more tension than a hate-sex novella who would sit on a lump of stone. Blah blah blah lack of human rights, killed some dogs (literal or rhetorical), cleaned a house, collected pixie dust important to a bunch of matriarchial cultists, told some guys in armor to do their job or not, beat up an old lady, picked another chair for two people with no such sexual tension, walked in front of a crowd and listened to a boring speech, and became Champion of a backwater town no one else really cares about.

But he did kill a dragon.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 19 mars 2011 - 12:28 .

[stephen1493]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Stephen, I could certainly make it far less glamorous, if you'd like.

The Warden chose between two short angry white guys with more tension than a hate-sex novella who would sit on a lump of stone. Blah blah blah lack of human rights, killed some dogs (literal or rhetorical), cleaned a house, collected pixie dust important to a bunch of matriarchial cultists, told some guys in armor to do their job or not, beat up an old lady, picked another chair for two people with no such sexual tension, walked in front of a crowd and listened to a boring speech, and became Champion of a backwater town no one else really cares about.

But he did kill a dragon.

Hawke- ****d himself out just to get in a town, ****d himself out just to get on an expedition, fought with musclemen who lost a book,  dealt with a hypocritical First Enchanter, and knocked around an old woman of his own.

but... he can nail a pirate...

Modifié par stephen1493, 19 mars 2011 - 12:33 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Ah, but at least Hawke didn't beat up an old lady.

You lose serious epic points for that.

[stephen1493]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Ah, but at least Hawke didn't beat up an old lady.

You lose serious epic points for that.

Meredith is easily early fifties, if not older.

[OmegaBlue0231]

The Warden did more epic things but was a less epic person. Except for the city elf Warden.

[stephen1493]

OmegaBlue0231 wrote...

The Warden did more epic things but was a less epic person. Except for the city elf Warden.

Dwarf commoner was pretty good too...

[Nokternul]

stephen1493 wrote...

The Warden crowned a dwarf king, decided whether or not innocent men and women will be made into golems to fight the darkspawn, "decided" the fate of a dalish clan, mopped up after Cailan in Ostagar, found the supposed ashes of the most influential woman of all of Thedas, issued an annulment completely or stopped an annulment completly (something Hawke couldn't do), Beaten Flemeth in Mortal Kombat, Crowned the Fereldan King/Queen, and lead the army that stopped the Blight saving all of Thedas from a war that would last decades. Oh, and he most likely was named the Champion of Redcliffe in the process

Hawke chased some qunari away from a city, and helped start a war.

Is this even debatable?

Hawke dethroned a Qunari king; killed a bunch of golems and darkspawn; decided the fate of a Dalish clan...with his sword; escaped from Ostagar after having fought in Ostagar just as the Warden did; found one of the most influential lyrium artifacts in existence--as opposed to the ashes of what may be no more than a myth; carried out/stood in the way of an officially decalred annulment; beat Arishok in head to head mortal combat--and the Arishok didn't throw the fight, like Flemeth; then beat a lyrium-powered Knight Commander and her templar legions; lead the opposition to quell the Qunari takeover of Kirkwall; helped begin and facilitate a war that is likely going to last decades--if not more, a war which the most powerful factions in the world have been trying to avoid, mind you (Chantry v Mages); possibly? assumed the role of Viscount of Kirkwall for himself; and was named Champion of Kirkwall with his very own 30-foot monument depecting with his sword raised and his boot stomping down on the head of the Arishok; Oh, and apparently he's also so epic that the left hand of the Divine and her associate--a 'mere' Seeker--are desperately trying to find him.

See how that works?

[OmegaBlue0231]

stephen1493 wrote...

OmegaBlue0231 wrote...

The Warden did more epic things but was a less epic person. Except for the city elf Warden.

Dwarf commoner was pretty good too...

Oh yeah, I forgot about that one.

[AlexXIV]

Nokternul wrote...

stephen1493 wrote...

The Warden crowned a dwarf king, decided whether or not innocent men and women will be made into golems to fight the darkspawn, "decided" the fate of a dalish clan, mopped up after Cailan in Ostagar, found the supposed ashes of the most influential woman of all of Thedas, issued an annulment completely or stopped an annulment completly (something Hawke couldn't do), Beaten Flemeth in Mortal Kombat, Crowned the Fereldan King/Queen, and lead the army that stopped the Blight saving all of Thedas from a war that would last decades. Oh, and he most likely was named the Champion of Redcliffe in the process

Hawke chased some qunari away from a city, and helped start a war.

Is this even debatable?

Hawke dethroned a Qunari king; killed a bunch of golems and darkspawn; decided the fate of a Dalish clan...with his sword; escaped from Ostagar after having fought in Ostagar just as the Warden did; found one of the most influential lyrium artifacts in existence--as opposed to the ashes of what may be no more than a myth; carried out/stood in the way of an officially decalred annulment; beat Arishok in head to head mortal combat--and the Arishok didn't throw the fight, like Flemeth; then beat a lyrium-powered Knight Commander and her templar legions; lead the opposition to quell the Qunari takeover of Kirkwall; helped begin and facilitate a war that is likely going to last decades--if not more, a war which the most powerful factions in the world have been trying to avoid, mind you (Chantry v Mages); possibly? assumed the role of Viscount of Kirkwall for himself; and was named Champion of Kirkwall with his very own 30-foot monument depecting with his sword raised and his boot stomping down on the head of the Arishok; Oh, and apparently he's also so epic that the left hand of the Divine and her associate--a 'mere' Seeker--are desperately trying to find him.

See how that works?

I see that you bring in the size of his statue as an argument how epic he was. matter of factly by the time Hawke even became Champion, the warden could have beaten not only the 5th, but also the 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th blight.

[stephen1493]

Nokternul wrote...

stephen1493 wrote...

The Warden crowned a dwarf king, decided whether or not innocent men and women will be made into golems to fight the darkspawn, "decided" the fate of a dalish clan, mopped up after Cailan in Ostagar, found the supposed ashes of the most influential woman of all of Thedas, issued an annulment completely or stopped an annulment completly (something Hawke couldn't do), Beaten Flemeth in Mortal Kombat, Crowned the Fereldan King/Queen, and lead the army that stopped the Blight saving all of Thedas from a war that would last decades. Oh, and he most likely was named the Champion of Redcliffe in the process

Hawke chased some qunari away from a city, and helped start a war.

Is this even debatable?

Hawke dethroned a Qunari king; killed a bunch of golems and darkspawn; decided the fate of a Dalish clan...with his sword; escaped from Ostagar after having fought in Ostagar just as the Warden did; found one of the most influential lyrium artifacts in existence--as opposed to the ashes of what may be no more than a myth; carried out/stood in the way of an officially decalred annulment; beat Arishok in head to head mortal combat--and the Arishok didn't throw the fight, like Flemeth; then beat a lyrium-powered Knight Commander and her templar legions; lead the opposition to quell the Qunari takeover of Kirkwall; helped begin and facilitate a war that is likely going to last decades--if not more, a war which the most powerful factions in the world have been trying to avoid, mind you (Chantry v Mages); possibly? assumed the role of Viscount of Kirkwall for himself; and was named Champion of Kirkwall with his very own 30-foot monument depecting with his sword raised and his boot stomping down on the head of the Arishok; Oh, and apparently he's also so epic that the left hand of the Divine and her associate--a 'mere' Seeker--are desperately trying to find him.

See how that works?

That qunari was not a king, Warden did that too, Hawke didn't decide anything; The dalish started the fight, He hadFlemeth help him (just like the Warden so points for that), That lyrium drove Meredith to craziness sparking the war which helped no one, the annulment wasn't complete/ people got away unlike the Wardens, Flemeth didn't throw the fight, a couple hundred of Qunari don't measure to thousands of darkspawn, Warden can become a king/queen- Hawke can become a VICOUNT, and as I already said, The warden became a champion as well, Ntm the Seekers are looking for the warden as well... so that's no 1 up on the Warden.

Apparently it didnt work well...

Modifié par stephen1493, 19 mars 2011 - 12:47 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Warden's friends were more multi-racial. A Qunari, and even a freakin golem.
Shows you his people's skills.

And the Warden can craft his own poison, traps, potions..etc. AND, can add and remove enchantements at will. Because his mere presence makes Sandal more efficient. 
And let's not forget, the Warden is a fashion master, who can force his companions to wear whatever he wants. Even be naked if he told them to.

That's epic.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 mars 2011 - 12:47 .

[XX-Pyro]

In all honesty if you chose to duel the Arishok that would probably be a harder fight than any the Warden had to go through.

The Warden changed Ferelden, Hawke changed the world.

That being said, I still think both characters are pretty equal in terms of how much I enjoyed playing out their stories.

[AlexXIV]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Warden's friends were more multi-racial. A Qunari, and even a freakin golem.
Shows you his people's skills.

And the Warden can craft his own poison, traps, potions..etc. AND, can add and remove runes at will. Because his mere presence makes Sandal more efficient. 
And let's not forge, the Warden is a fashion master, who can force his companions to wear whatever he wants. Even be naked if he told them to.

That's epic.

Know what's really epic. My Warden was a female Dalish elf and a paragon of beauty. Now beat this. Of course Leliana told her story since they were a couple.

[stephen1493]

XX-Pyro wrote...

In all honesty if you chose to duel the Arishok that would probably be a harder fight than any the Warden had to go through.

The Warden changed Ferelden, Hawke changed the world.

That being said, I still think both characters are pretty equal in terms of how much I enjoyed playing out their stories.

The first points easily debatable, so I'll just not even touch it.

The Warden spared the world from a war of obliteration and Hawke put the world in a faction war...

That's some change I guess.

Modifié par stephen1493, 19 mars 2011 - 12:51 .

[Babi]

The Warden was cool, did some pretty epic things, but it's over. Regardless of the decisions you make, those little epilogue texts tell you that the Werewolves and Lady of the Forest disappear (if you chose them) and Branka and the Golems leave as well. You got to have 10+ in your party for the Blight battle... but that's about all.

It seemed to me that all the epic things the Warden did were contained within Ferelden. Even though Hawke doesn't control as much on a large scale... I enjoyed playing as Hawke more overall. You don't get any huge decisions, but you get to make smaller ones and really experience the ramifications of them through the game.... instead of an epilogue text box.

[XX-Pyro]

stephen1493 wrote...

XX-Pyro wrote...

In all honesty if you chose to duel the Arishok that would probably be a harder fight than any the Warden had to go through.

The Warden changed Ferelden, Hawke changed the world.

That being said, I still think both characters are pretty equal in terms of how much I enjoyed playing out their stories.

The Warden spared the world from a war of obliteration and Hawke put the world in a faction war...

The Warden spared Ferelden, once it reached other countries there are other Wardens who could (and would) have done the task. 

And I think a war for better rights and freedoms of mages is quite an "epic" feat for a refugee.*

*That's what my Hawke ended up doing anyways, Mage supporter (but hated demons/abominations/all that nasty.)

Modifié par XX-Pyro, 19 mars 2011 - 12:53 .

[stephen1493]

XX-Pyro wrote...

stephen1493 wrote...

XX-Pyro wrote...

In all honesty if you chose to duel the Arishok that would probably be a harder fight than any the Warden had to go through.

The Warden changed Ferelden, Hawke changed the world.

That being said, I still think both characters are pretty equal in terms of how much I enjoyed playing out their stories.

The Warden spared the world from a war of obliteration and Hawke put the world in a faction war...

The Warden spared Ferelden, once it reached other countries there are other Wardens who could (and would) have done the task. 

And I think a war for better rights and freedoms of mages is quite an "epic" feat for a refugee.

Yes, any Warden could kill the archdemon. That's why Blights are over in a blink of the eye.

As for the second point- I think a poor dwarf/elf, sheltered elf/mage, or a princly Human/dwarf beating a god of the old world in under 2 years is a bit more epic than starting a war, but I suppose I'm bias.

Modifié par stephen1493, 19 mars 2011 - 12:55 .

[Nokternul]

stephen1493 wrote...

Nokternul wrote...

stephen1493 wrote...

The Warden crowned a dwarf king, decided whether or not innocent men and women will be made into golems to fight the darkspawn, "decided" the fate of a dalish clan, mopped up after Cailan in Ostagar, found the supposed ashes of the most influential woman of all of Thedas, issued an annulment completely or stopped an annulment completly (something Hawke couldn't do), Beaten Flemeth in Mortal Kombat, Crowned the Fereldan King/Queen, and lead the army that stopped the Blight saving all of Thedas from a war that would last decades. Oh, and he most likely was named the Champion of Redcliffe in the process

Hawke chased some qunari away from a city, and helped start a war.

Is this even debatable?

Hawke dethroned a Qunari king; killed a bunch of golems and darkspawn; decided the fate of a Dalish clan...with his sword; escaped from Ostagar after having fought in Ostagar just as the Warden did; found one of the most influential lyrium artifacts in existence--as opposed to the ashes of what may be no more than a myth; carried out/stood in the way of an officially decalred annulment; beat Arishok in head to head mortal combat--and the Arishok didn't throw the fight, like Flemeth; then beat a lyrium-powered Knight Commander and her templar legions; lead the opposition to quell the Qunari takeover of Kirkwall; helped begin and facilitate a war that is likely going to last decades--if not more, a war which the most powerful factions in the world have been trying to avoid, mind you (Chantry v Mages); possibly? assumed the role of Viscount of Kirkwall for himself; and was named Champion of Kirkwall with his very own 30-foot monument depecting with his sword raised and his boot stomping down on the head of the Arishok; Oh, and apparently he's also so epic that the left hand of the Divine and her associate--a 'mere' Seeker--are desperately trying to find him.

See how that works?

That qunari was not a king, Warden did that too, Hawke didn't decide anything; The dalish started the fight, He hadFlemeth help him (just like the Warden so points for that), That lyrium drove Meredith to craziness sparking the war which helped no one, the annulment wasn't complete/ people got away unlike the Wardens, Flemeth didn't throw the fight, a couple hundred of Qunari don't measure to thousands of darkspawn, Warden can become a king/queen- Hawke can become a VICOUNT, and as I already said, The warden became a champion as well, Ntm they're looking for the warden as well.

Apparently it didnt work well...

Leader, king--semantics. Hawke decided the outcome regardless of who started what. Whether the war is helping or not is irrelevant to the effect it will have on the world at large--read influence, and it was through Hawke's actions that Meredith would even come into contact with the lyrium, leading to her lunacy. Exactly, the annulment wasn't complete because Hawke opposed it--opposing an official decree from a Templar Knight Commander as little more than a wealthy merc is fairly significant. If she didn't throw the fight, then she didn't lose either--seeing as how she's still alive; either way the Warden didn't defeat Flemeth. Hawke fought the Darkspawn at Ostagar too. They aren't looking for the Warden last I checked, unless you're just presuming that's the case--all they say is that Hawke has disappeared just like the Warden did; this doesn't mean they need to find the Warden, or that finding him is a priority to them.

E for effort.

[AlexXIV]

XX-Pyro wrote...

stephen1493 wrote...

XX-Pyro wrote...

In all honesty if you chose to duel the Arishok that would probably be a harder fight than any the Warden had to go through.

The Warden changed Ferelden, Hawke changed the world.

That being said, I still think both characters are pretty equal in terms of how much I enjoyed playing out their stories.

The Warden spared the world from a war of obliteration and Hawke put the world in a faction war...

The Warden spared Ferelden, once it reached other countries there are other Wardens who could (and would) have done the task. 

And I think a war for better rights and freedoms of mages is quite an "epic" feat for a refugee.*

*That's what my Hawke ended up doing anyways, Mage supporter (but hated demons/abominations/all that nasty.)

Well Hawke just unwittingly helped Anders. And so did the Warden. The Warden saved Anders from the templars and because of the Warden Justice was brought to the realm of mortals. Without the Warden the blight would probably have reached Kirkwall and the events of Kirkwall would have been changed.

If Hawke had a more active role I'd agree. But Hawke did nothing in order to cause a war. He/she was used to cause a war. By Anders and by Meredith.