254 réponses à ce sujet

[stephen1493]

Nokternul wrote...

Leader, king--semantics. Hawke decided the outcome regardless of who started what. Whether the war is helping or not is irrelevant to the effect it will have on the world at large--read influence, and it was through Hawke's actions that Meredith would even come into contact with the lyrium, leading to her lunacy. Exactly, the annulment wasn't complete because Hawke opposed it--opposing an official decree from a Templar Knight Commander as little more than a wealthy merc is fairly significant. If she didn't throw the fight, then she didn't lose either--seeing as how she's still alive; either way the Warden didn't defeat Flemeth. Hawke fought the Darkspawn at Ostagar too. They aren't looking for the Warden last I checked, unless you're just presuming that's the case--all they say is that Hawke has disappeared just like the Warden did; this doesn't mean they need to find the Warden, or that finding him is a priority to them.

E for effort.

*snip*
And Scale but w/e ,Anyone anywhere decides outcomes/ hell a outcome is decided everytime I need a drink of water (Hawke was led into the fight, The warden decided the fight), I wouldn't say starting a war is "epic"- (Anders was mostly behind that anyway), Making an old woman crazy doesnt need an epic person to do that. I said Mortal Kombat, not obliterated Flemeth (If you want to get technical, he did "kill" her), Yes no one's looking for the Warden/ Leiliana couldn't give a crap. You may be stuck the idea that All seekers are working on the same mission bra.

Try again next time.

Modifié par stephen1493, 19 mars 2011 - 01:07 .

[Nokternul]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well Hawke just unwittingly helped Anders. And so did the Warden. The Warden saved Anders from the templars and because of the Warden Justice was brought to the realm of mortals. Without the Warden the blight would probably have reached Kirkwall and the events of Kirkwall would have been changed.

If Hawke had a more active role I'd agree. But Hawke did nothing in order to cause a war. He/she was used to cause a war. By Anders and by Meredith.

By that logic, all of the Warden's influence really isn't his, but Duncan's... or Morrigan's... or Flemeth's... or...

stephen1493 wrote...

*snip*
And Scale but w/e ,Anyone anywhere decides outcomes/ hell a outcome is decided everytime I need a drink of water (Hawke was led into the fight, The warden decided
the fight), I wouldn't say starting a war is "epic"- (Anders was mostly
behind that anyway), Making an old woman crazy doesnt need an epic
person to do that. I said Mortal Kombat, not obliterated Flemeth
(If you want to get technical, he did "kill" her), Yes no one's looking
for the Warden/ Leiliana couldn't give a crap. You may be stuck the idea
that All seekers are working on the same mission bra.

Try again next time.

Try again next time

I would be happy to if any of this refuted anything I said in my response. But it doesn't. All you've done here is argue more irrelevant semantics and conceded that Leliana and the Seeker are not, in fact, searching for the Warden to save the world; so thanks for reaffirming my assertion.

Modifié par Nokternul, 19 mars 2011 - 01:07 .

[stephen1493]

The war blame game could go on for ages.

[stephen1493]

Nokternul wrote...

stephen1493 wrote...

*snip*
And Scale but w/e ,Anyone anywhere decides outcomes/ hell a outcome is decided everytime I need a drink of water (Hawke was led into the fight, The warden decided
the fight), I wouldn't say starting a war is "epic"- (Anders was mostly
behind that anyway), Making an old woman crazy doesnt need an epic
person to do that. I said Mortal Kombat, not obliterated Flemeth
(If you want to get technical, he did "kill" her), Yes no one's looking
for the Warden/ Leiliana couldn't give a crap. You may be stuck the idea
that All seekers are working on the same mission bra.

Try again next time.

Try again next time

I would be happy to if any of this refuted anything I said in my response. But it doesn't. All you've done here is argue more irrelevant semantics and conceded that Leliana and the Seeker are not, in fact, searching for the Warden to save the world; so thanks for reaffirming my assertion.

yes get the details wrong to make Hawke seem more epic, and when I bust your buns cry,- SEMANTICS!!

Victory! Woot! woot!

Modifié par stephen1493, 19 mars 2011 - 01:13 .

[AlexXIV]

Nokternul wrote...
By that logic, all of the Warden's influence really isn't his, but Duncan's... or Morrigan's... or Flemeth's... or...

And what's wrong with this logic?

The Warden had friends to help her and so did Hawke.

[Nokternul]

AlexXIV wrote...

Nokternul wrote...
By that logic, all of the Warden's influence really isn't his, but Duncan's... or Morrigan's... or Flemeth's... or...

And what's wrong with this logic?

The Warden had friends to help her and so did Hawke.

Nothing is wrong with it so long as you're not using it as reason for why the Warden is somehow more epic than Hawke.

In any earlier post I even made the assertion that when you consider epic stories/movies, all of the heroes in those epics are reliant on, facilitated by, or influenced by other characters to one degree or another.

I find that both characters are epic in their own right. I don't find it entirely logical to argue who is more epic than the other, however--though admittedly I prefer Hawke as a character--as we've seen it's a largely subjective matter, especially when considering that the stories were delivered in two very different ways, under different circumstances, and may not even be complete at this point.

[AlexXIV]

Nokternul wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Nokternul wrote...
By that logic, all of the Warden's influence really isn't his, but Duncan's... or Morrigan's... or Flemeth's... or...

And what's wrong with this logic?

The Warden had friends to help her and so did Hawke.

Nothing is wrong with it so long as you're not using it as reason for why the Warden is somehow more epic than Hawke.

In any earlier post I even made the assertion that when you consider epic stories/movies, all of the heroes in those epics are reliant on, facilitated by, or influenced by other characters to one degree or another.

I find that both characters are epic in their own right. I don't find it entirely logical to argue who is more epic than the other, however--though admittedly I prefer Hawke as a character--as we've seen it's a largely subjective matter, especially when considering that the stories were delivered in two very different ways, under different circumstances, and may not even be complete at this point.

I didn't start use it as a reason. But people who say Hawke caused/started a war do. It was Anders and Meredith, not Hawke. If people can say Hawke's involvement make him/her epic, then I am saying the Warden was also involved. The Warden isn't epic because of what Anders did, but because of what the Warden did. In Ferelden.

[stephen1493]

AlexXIV wrote...

Nokternul wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Nokternul wrote...
By that logic, all of the Warden's influence really isn't his, but Duncan's... or Morrigan's... or Flemeth's... or...

And what's wrong with this logic?

The Warden had friends to help her and so did Hawke.

Nothing is wrong with it so long as you're not using it as reason for why the Warden is somehow more epic than Hawke.

In any earlier post I even made the assertion that when you consider epic stories/movies, all of the heroes in those epics are reliant on, facilitated by, or influenced by other characters to one degree or another.

I find that both characters are epic in their own right. I don't find it entirely logical to argue who is more epic than the other, however--though admittedly I prefer Hawke as a character--as we've seen it's a largely subjective matter, especially when considering that the stories were delivered in two very different ways, under different circumstances, and may not even be complete at this point.

I didn't start use it as a reason. But people who say Hawke caused/started a war do. It was Anders and Meredith, not Hawke. If people can say Hawke's involvement make him/her epic, then I am saying the Warden was also involved. The Warden isn't epic because of what Anders did, but because of what the Warden did. In Ferelden.

Well that's not really an arguement, because the Warden doesn't have to associate with Anders at all. You can send him on his way as soon as you meet him...

[Nokternul]

AlexXIV wrote...

I didn't start use it as a reason. But people who say Hawke caused/started a war do. It was Anders and Meredith, not Hawke. If people can say Hawke's involvement make him/her epic, then I am saying the Warden was also involved. The Warden isn't epic because of what Anders did, but because of what the Warden did. In Ferelden.

Well, he may have started a war with the Qunari, but that remains to be seen.

As for the Mages vs Templars, true enough--he didn't directly cause that war, it's been brewing for years now really. But his actions have served as a catalyst for it to finally occur, though he certainly was not alone in this regard; many characters contributed to this end.

[AlexXIV]

stephen1493 wrote...
Well that's not really an arguement, because the Warden doesn't have to associate with Anders at all. You can send him on his way as soon as you meet him...

I think it's been canonized. Unless some other way Justice left the Fade, happened to meet Anders who escaped from the Templars and became friends. Which is rather ... silly.

[stephen1493]

AlexXIV wrote...

stephen1493 wrote...
Well that's not really an arguement, because the Warden doesn't have to associate with Anders at all. You can send him on his way as soon as you meet him...

I think it's been canonized. Unless some other way Justice left the Fade, happened to meet Anders who escaped from the Templars and became friends. Which is rather ... silly.

Silly yet possible.

Edit: In all seriousness, there was a long thread about this after the short storys came out over how he could be a warden if your Warden didn't induct him, or if Anders died. David Gaider said that some other warden could have inducted him.

Modifié par stephen1493, 19 mars 2011 - 01:36 .

[The Spirit of Dance]

Warden: defeated 2 high dragons, Flemeth, 2 broodmothers, over a thousand darkspawn, the Archdemon, and all of that was within 1-2 years

Hawke: defeated 1 high dragon, a rock wraith, Meredith, The Arishock, Xebenkeck, Hybris, gained an estate and this was done within 7 years.

Both: defeated several templars, demons, Blood mages, the Harvester, the Varterral and abominations.

[AlexXIV]

stephen1493 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

stephen1493 wrote...
Well that's not really an arguement, because the Warden doesn't have to associate with Anders at all. You can send him on his way as soon as you meet him...

I think it's been canonized. Unless some other way Justice left the Fade, happened to meet Anders who escaped from the Templars and became friends. Which is rather ... silly.

Silly yet possible.

Tbh I didn't try. I always saved Anders even if I found him rather annoying in DA:A. And broke into the templar building to get his phylactery. But I think you can't avoid the Justice quest and take him in your group, or can you?

Anders is only the one half, the other is Justice.

I find the whole Anders thing in DA2 is a bit strangely introduced. Couldn't they have known he will play a role in DA2 when they did DA:A?

Modifié par AlexXIV, 19 mars 2011 - 01:37 .

[stephen1493]

AlexXIV wrote...

stephen1493 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

stephen1493 wrote...
Well that's not really an arguement, because the Warden doesn't have to associate with Anders at all. You can send him on his way as soon as you meet him...

I think it's been canonized. Unless some other way Justice left the Fade, happened to meet Anders who escaped from the Templars and became friends. Which is rather ... silly.

Silly yet possible.

Tbh I didn't try. I always saved Anders even if I found him rather annoying in DA:A. And broke into the templar building to get his phylactery. But I think you can't avoid the Justice quest and take him in your group, or can you?

I think you can turn Justice away... it gets to be kind of confusing.

[stephen1493]

Should I put possibly nailing a desire demon on the Warden's scoreboard as well?

Edit: It could have been A spirit of Justice that got turned, not the one the Warden knows. It all gets to be silly explanations.

Modifié par stephen1493, 19 mars 2011 - 01:39 .

[AlexXIV]

stephen1493 wrote...

Should I put possibly nailing a desire demon on the Warden's scoreboard as well?

Well then you can also add the foursome with Isabelle. Which Hawke also couldn't.

[Danjaru]

One of the things I liked in DA2 was Hawke's failures...

The fact that he wasn't the most important factor in the game was quite refreshing to a degree (Although the few real choices you can make quickly takes away from that). He's clearly not as heroic or "epic" as the Warden but it makes him more real. It's quite nice to have your companions be just as essential to the story as you are. This makes it not the epic tale of Hawke, but the epic tale of the immigrants from Ferelden. You're part of it, but not the driving force to the same degree the Warden was.

Hawke's a tragic hero that seemingly doesn't have the same capabilities as the Warden had. But he still manages to do the things he did without being the unstoppable hero.

Modifié par Danjaru, 19 mars 2011 - 02:02 .

[OrlesianWardenCommander]

Hawke caused the chantry too fall apart, and cause the mages to rebell putting the world on the brink of war. Plus breaking the mages domestication and abuse that had happened for 1000years. There both epic but hawke story is not over I'd like too see our imported wardens with voices and your main companion.

[Danjaru]

OrlesianWardenCommander wrote...

Hawke caused the chantry too fall apart, and cause the mages to rebell putting the world on the brink of war. Plus breaking the mages domestication and abuse that had happened for 1000years. There both epic but hawke story is not over I'd like too see our imported wardens with voices and your main companion.

Erm... Anders caused the Chantry to fall apart and created the war that broke the mages from their situation. Hawke just went "oh wtf?!" and killed stuff.

[OrlesianWardenCommander]

But he killed Meredith demonstrating the Templars can be apposed......

[b09boy]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Darkspawn Chronicles being non-canonical in the first place. (No one says you have to win, after all.

Of course it's non canon.  It's a what-if story.  What if the Warden wasn't present.

The plot was never in anyone's control for either game. The plot-advancing events were always irregardless of decisions as well.

Difference.  The plot-advancing events in Origins happened due to the Warden.  The plot-advancing events in DA2 happen irregardless of Hawke.

It's certainly erronious to say that Hawke wasn't critical to his own plot, on the same grounds that the Warden is critical for their own victory against the ArchDemon. Yes, the ArchDemon was going down regardless.

Um...not without taking out Fereldan and a good chunk of probably two other nations over the course of a few decades, at the least.

Yes, the choices you could make never could change the most critical events: you could never get around saving Eamon, starting or ultimately triumphing at the Landsmeet, or the battle of Denerim. That doesn't mean you weren't involved, and weren't critical to them and how they resolved.

Exactly.  Even if we didn't directly choose these events, the Warden is responsible for them coming to pass as they did.

Hawke matters. Ultimately, Hawke matters for the unavoidable choice of Mage vs Templar, just as the Warden ultimately mattered for fighting the ArchDemon. In the process, Hawke mattered a great deal for the advancement of the plot, and the plot's accessoraries: funding Bartrand's expedition to get the idol, managing the rogue Chantry fanatics, resolving the Qunari invasion. These things, as irrevocable as they were, did matter, did have variation, and did need Hawke.

Except for where they didn't.  Bartrand's expedition would have gotten funding one way or another.  Varric's too slippery not to be able to scrape together a couple investors or money lenders.  Hell, you even meet another character very much interested in investing into the expedition.  The Qunari invasion was a doomed venture.  They cause about as much damage as they were capable of given the extremely low numbers they had at their disposal, killing the leader of the city.  Hawke was simply the executioner to a doomed man as they had nowhere near the numbers to protect themselves from the thousands who would have crushed the couple hundred present.  Much the same with Meredith or Orsino.  They become what they are regardless and would have been hunted down and killed off for what they are and have done regardless of Hawke.  And the grand war?  Everyone rebels regardless of his decisions or influence.

There is NOTHING Hawke does to influence the world and NOTHING of importance he accomplishes which would not have  been accomplished without him.  His role is to have been the one present when it all happens.

[jsntjia]

supremebloodwolf wrote...

Warden: defeated 2 high dragons, Flemeth, 2 broodmothers, over a thousand darkspawn, the Archdemon, and all of that was within 1-2 years

Hawke: defeated 1 high dragon, a rock wraith, Meredith, The Arishock, Xebenkeck, Hybris, gained an estate and this was done within 7 years.

Both: defeated several templars, demons, Blood mages, the Harvester, the Varterral and abominations.

on a plus note .

warden's few companion : a witch of the wild , a prince/king , a story teller spy ,a quanari ,and a  golem

hawke's: a pirate , a possesed mage , a captain guard , a keeper , a merchant with a badass gun and a noble with bow.

both has a dog and an annoying male efl

[Beaynid]

the wardens story was bad stuff happens, warden has no choice but to do a b and c to get to d in order to do e to save the world from the massive evil bubbling from f.

Hawke has to protect his family on the way to a after their home is destroyed. he then has to find a way to get his family into a because they arent letting anyone enter. so he does b to get into a and it leads him to make a mark in the area. they are still poor and need money badly, so hawke has to do things in order to fund a trip to c, c occurs leading to d and lots of profit, causing hawke to make a bigger name for himself. i can pretty much stop here because you can now see the difference.

1 warden vs hawke, the warden is a title, after he became a grey warden he was no longer a real person but a title and purpose. epic stories are usually someone who gets put into a larger than life situation and is told do this to save the world or everything is dead, oh and you are the only one who can do it. so failure is not an option and the end result if you succeed is the world is saved.

hawke on the otherhand is a person, its his name which everyone refers to him by, and most of his motivations in the general sense is very personal, protect the family, protect own butt, build ourselves up in the new place. Its just that the environment that he is in is in a state of flux or building up of change and he becomes a catalyst to make it all go boom, whether he is trying to agitate it deliberately or if he is just trying to do the right thing. It honestly doesnt matter because he is a catalyst of change character. he can fart and it will dynamically shift the environment.

There is your key, warden story is impersonal epic, hawke story is personal leading to shifting a powderkeg.

[Redem0]

In my opinion the Warden is suppose to be that Epic hero while Hawke suppose to be just has someone that lives in that world that just happen to be really bad ass

[thenemesis77]

I liked Hawke but I loved The Warden.

Both went into hell and came out on top but really in the end both ran off and for what reasons, thats not up to us to know just yet but they can not outrun what they have become and that is what the world needs and they are needed now! I have this weird feeling they will be on different sides of the fence, with the world that is in a world war. I know alot of people would love them to team up, that would just make the game too easy.