183 réponses à ce sujet

[Zalocx]

David Gaider wrote...

Just a comment about the mages-- it's said several times, by various people, that mages resort to the forbidden when they're up against a wall because they can. The templars use this as justification for their censure, but would the mages do that if they weren't up against a wall to begin with? Some might, others might not. Would Orsino have? Was he corrupt all along or simply preparing for an inevitable confrontation? Would the fact that only "some" be corrupt be enough justification not to censure them, since one cannot separate the bad from the good? It's a cyclical argument, with Anders taking the Gordian Knot solution which may or may turn out to be a solution at all.

Didn't you write Fenris and thus know the answer to that question already?

His whole 7 years long rant about how mages with true freedom and power in Tivinter casually commit atrocities that only the most desperate Andrastan Circle mage would resort to spoke volumes more about the issue at hand than anything an apotate did.

Disturbingly that seems to stem from people wanting to one up their peers, a desire that is pretty deeply lodged in human/elvenkind. It just so happens some of these ambitious people can kill you with their minds

[David Gaider]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
In regards to freedom vs. security: In the end you are essentially made to choose between the extremes of endorsing terrorism or endorsing the police state. It's not a comfortable decision, but I don't think it came out of nowhere or anything. In that sense another theme of the game is escalation and proportionality.

I don't think Hawke is required to endorse either side, necessarily. As the Champion, Meredith doesn't allow you the luxury of backing out-- it's either "with us or against us", so while a player might happily endorse a side he or she might also be reluctantly dragged into the entire mess. And it is a mess. Though what Hawke does with that mess... well that remains to be seen.

[David Gaider]

Zalocx wrote...
His whole 7 years long rant about how mages with true freedom and power in Tivinter casually commit atrocities that only the most desperate Andrastan Circle mage would resort to spoke volumes more about the issue at hand than anything an apotate did.

Disturbingly that seems to stem from people wanting to one up their peers, a desire that is pretty deeply lodged in human/elvenkind. It just so happens some of these ambitious people can kill you with their minds

I wrote Fenris, yes. And his arguments about what happens when "the mages are in charge of themselves" are, in my mind, pretty effective with regards to those people who argue that Tevinter has it so much better. You'd be hard-pressed to find many mages there who weren't already on top of the pile who might agree... but such is human nature.

[upsettingshorts]

David Gaider wrote...

I don't think Hawke is required to endorse either side, necessarily. As the Champion, Meredith doesn't allow you the
luxury of backing out-- it's either "with us or against us", so while a player might happily endorse a side he or she might also be reluctantly dragged into the entire mess.

Implicitly endorse, perhaps? I meant in terms mostly of public perception - as even the perceptive, intelligent, and probably better informed than your average resident of Thedas Cassandra has no idea as to Hawke's motives or character behind his/her decisions until Varric fills her in. Though re-reading I seem to have been making a different point.

Dragged along would pretty much describe my Hawke's position.  He (and thus I) felt that Anders' actions made the mage position untenable and was forced to accept Meredith's position.  Thankfully SuperCullen ™ was there to save the day.  Sort of.

David Gaider wrote...
And it is a mess. Though what Hawke does with that mess... well that remains to be seen. {smilie}

You do know what you're doing, don't you? Also, that "the Hero of Ferelden should be back in Denerim by now" line? Don't think I didn't notice that one. Shocked there aren't a ton of threads about it personally, figure it's just lost in all the ranting.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 11 mars 2011 - 06:52 .

[TysonL87]

I felt the same way, very cheated. bad on you Bioware!

[ReavousX]

One thing worth noting, Orsino had flirted with blood magic before. He aided the blood mage serial killer who kills Hawke's mother (see codex note from quest, letter from a Circle Mage calling himself "
O") which is confirmed when Orsino gets ready to take the plunge during the final showdown. Although he did a good job of hiding his inner struggle between keeping his cool and turning into an ass ugly abomination, his overall appearance (kick ass black robes and three headed serpent staff? Definitely not a chantry boy) was and final actions confirm what I had already figured, that Orsino, in his own way, was just as bad as Meredith.

This is not to say that his blood mage coming out party didn't feel rushed, it did, I was expecting an epic battle with him by my side. Instead, he loses his marbles for a moment, and hello Abomination. I would have liked to see a little more done to lead us to believe he was a risk in Act 3, even if it was just a few letters or notes found connecting Orsino to a darker side.

A further thought on blood magic in general, I remember how in Origins, it had an extremely taboo feel to it. That only some of the most corrupt and desperate give in, and when they do, it's incredibly unique. I get that every mage is one moment away from turning towards blood magic, but the sheer number of blood mages when comparing Origins to DA 2 is shocking. As some have already stated, 9/10 of the mages in the final battle became abominations, and personally left me feeling like the choice between templar/mage was incredibly cheap. In the cutscene with Orsino and his mages fighting out in the open, none of them turned to blood magic, they were using everyday typical magic attacks. They were losing, but from what we saw, it looked more like their strategy was to blame than what spell they chose.

[David Gaider]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Implicitly endorse, perhaps? I meant in terms mostly of public perception - as even the perceptive, intelligent, and probably better informed than your average resident of Thedas Cassandra has no idea as to Hawke's motives or character behind his/her decisions until Varric fills her in. Though re-reading I seem to have been making a different point.

Indeed. Think about it: from the outside, Hawke's actions could come across as positively nefarious, if one wasn't aware of his or her motivations or circumstances.

[Roachbugg]

Mr Gaider I would like to ask why you had to leave us at such a cliff hanger i got no sense of closure what so ever from the story it left me wanting the game just felt to short.

[upsettingshorts]

Roachbugg wrote...

i got no sense of closure

I'm not DG obviously, but I'll guess:

DA2's setting is the start of a revolution.   The showdown in the gallows is not the final confrontation.  If this is the American Revolution, that was this. 

The story is "who is the Champion of Kirkwall?"  Closure is answering that question.  Do you know who your Hawke was?  If you do, that's closure.  If you don't... well, I don't know what to say.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 11 mars 2011 - 07:02 .

[Vendrin]

Sorry Mr. Gaider, but at times this story was just incredibly frustrating as Hawke was forced to do things that I don't think my blood mage hawke would ever do.

I nearly threw my laptop to the ground in some instances when you are forced to just stand by and watch people die in cutscenes or let people just walk away.

Like in the end, when you side with the mages and Meredith is walking away to gather her forces and Orisino is like, let's go inside and prepare, I was so angry I couldn't just kill Meredith right then and there, it makes no damn sense. She's in reach, I'm a blood mage, let me kill her. But no, then comes the whole assault and Orisino turning into an abomination for no damn reason, where again I couldn't say or do anything to stop him even though we had been killing countless templars just fine without turning into abominations.

Not to mention that whole situation with Thrask and the rebel mages/templars. You see her about to kill Thrask one of the few templars on your side, and you can't do anything but watch him die, when you had plenty of time to fireball her ass.

It felt like you traded a roleplaying game for a movie where you get to change the lines now and then, but any real decisions except which idiot you want to side with is taken out of your hand.

As you can see under my name I've supported Bioware a long time, but this game left me frustrated with the story and the characters more so then any other. Not to mention the horribly annoying bugs.

[upsettingshorts]

Vendrin, "but thou must" is a constant in cRPGs. Why couldn't I just tell Gorion to get bent, I liked Candlekeep, and stay there forever? Why couldn't Revan decide to become a hermit on Kashyyyk like Jolee Bindo? Why couldn't the Warden have said, "Cya, you're on your own" to Alistair and bailed for, well, Kirkwall?

My Hawke would have wanted to approach SuperCullen (plus perhaps the Grand Cleric) and try to organize a coup to oust Knight Commander Meredith in the hopes that reasonable leadership would de-escalate the situation and prevent violence from spreading beyond Meredith and her most dedicated supporters. Furthermore upon discovering that Anders had something dangerous planned would have gone to First Enchanter Orsino and advised him to rally whatever mage contacts he had to deal with him before he either put them over the edge or was discovered by Meredith.

These were not options available to me that I saw, and if they had been I would have attempted them even if they were doomed to fail because that's what Rayin Hawke woulda tried.  CRPGs by their nature can not and to my knowledge never have accounted for every possible course of action that could have been taken by every character.

As such I've always viewed them as a book (in the case of text games) or movie (as you suggest) in which you change the lines and dictate the action along and in cooperation with a predetermined path.  They simply aren't capable of much more.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 11 mars 2011 - 07:16 .

[leggywillow]

David Gaider wrote...

Though what Hawke does with that mess... well that remains to be seen.

And I certainly hope it will be seen.  Don't tease us like that!

Upsettingshorts wrote...

You do know what you're doing, don't you? Also, that "the Hero of Ferelden should be back in Denerim by now" line? Don't think I didn't notice that one. Shocked there aren't a ton of threads about it personally, figure it's just lost in all the ranting.

Are you referring to the fact that both the Warden and Hawke are now MIA?  That is the most interesting thing about the entire ending for me.  What the heck is going on?!  I desperately, desperately want to know.

Modifié par leggywillow, 11 mars 2011 - 07:12 .

[Vendrin]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Vendrin, "but thou must" is a constant in cRPGs. Why couldn't I just tell Gorion to get bent, I liked Candlekeep, and stay there forever? Why couldn't Revan decide to become a hermit on Kashyyyk like Jolee Bindo? Why couldn't the Warden have said, "Cya, you're on your own" to Alistair and bailed for, well, Kirkwall?

True, and in this game "but thou must" involves the running from kirkwall, the deep roads expedition, and the qunari problem. In all of those examples and yours, I never felt like my character was forced to act out of character to suit the needs of the story. I could justify those actions because they made sense in the context of the story. The actions I listed made no sense for my character who had been defending mages the whole game, was very agressive and was not just one to stand by and let others be killed when he could do something. Instead I was forced to watch my character do these very things, assist templars hunt other mages because the story demanded it.

Hell, I'd have been fine with hunting the mages down if instead of Meredith threatening me to do it and force me into the circle(haha, go ahead and try it) if Orisino had sent me the message and gone, hey these mages escaped, normally I'd support them, but they seem to be doing some crazy stuff, investigate it before the templars get word and clamp down even more. Then same quests, but now I could justify it for my character.

Bioware seemed to take the easy way out in a lot of things instead of taking the time to make sure mage supporting characters would have justifications for the quests. 

Also, I really wish they had interrupts in this game. maybe ME2 spoiled me but it would have been nice to be able to shoot/stab/lightning bolt people before they killed someone else in conversation.

These were not options available to me that I saw. CRPGs by their nature can not and to my knowledge never have accounted for every possible course of action that could have been taken by every character..

Very true, but good CRPGs makes sure there are valid justifications for each type of possible character for the quests that need to be performed.

[Dapper Pomegranate]

Vendrin wrote...
...
Like in the end, when you side with the mages and Meredith is walking away to gather her forces and Orisino is like, let's go inside and prepare, I was so angry I couldn't just kill Meredith right then and there, it makes no damn sense. She's in reach, I'm a blood mage, let me kill her. But no, then comes the whole assault and Orisino turning into an abomination for no damn reason, where again I couldn't say or do anything to stop him even though we had been killing countless templars just fine without turning into abominations.
...

Ugh, yes! This frustrated me to no end. The worst one for me though was at the end after Anders blows up the chantry. I had been bitter, bitter rivals with Sebastian the entire game, then he threatens to kill my man and I am forced to let him walk away to gather forces and do just that? Why couldn't I set him on fire or something?

Also, the situation with Thrask, or rather, the encounters leading up to it. I had been helping the mages the entire game and yet they all still thought I sided with Meredith and I had to just stand there like a moron, apparently completely lacking the werewithal to defend myself...

[Mordern]

I thought the mages turning to blood magic was sort of fitting. I mean, there's always a tendency in a lot of stories to equate suffering oppression with strength of character. I mean it's very rare to encounter a situation in popular media where the underdog/oppressed faction doesn't have the absolute moral high ground.

So yes, this was a good reminder that suffering doesn't necessarily imply virtue. However, it was almost... too effective. I mean there was no real counterargument unless you yourself play a mage or your sister survives the Deep Roads. It's really hard to see who it is you're supposed to be fighting for when out of the hundred odd mages you've encountered, only one (your sister) isn't using blood magic or trying to kill you. You're sort of relying on the player to have a built in sympathy with the mages, which only really comes into the story in a meta manner, through yourself as the player.

So yes, the choice to support the circle or the templars is a difficult one for me as a player, but I don't see anyone but MageHawke having much trouble with it, given the circumstances.

I mean come on. Those renegade mages were damn annoying to fight. I'll take on a Templar any day over one of those basards.

[upsettingshorts]

Mordern clearly has not encountered a forum poster named IanPolaris.

That being said, I think people do take in the position of "people should not be persecuted for circumstances of birth" either consciously or unconsciously into the game.

[Auresta]

Mordern wrote...

I thought the mages turning to blood magic was sort of fitting. I mean, there's always a tendency in a lot of stories to equate suffering oppression with strength of character. I mean it's very rare to encounter a situation in popular media where the underdog/oppressed faction doesn't have the absolute moral high ground.

So yes, this was a good reminder that suffering doesn't necessarily imply virtue. However, it was almost... too effective. I mean there was no real counterargument unless you yourself play a mage or your sister survives the Deep Roads. It's really hard to see who it is you're supposed to be fighting for when out of the hundred odd mages you've encountered, only one (your sister) isn't using blood magic or trying to kill you. You're sort of relying on the player to have a built in sympathy with the mages, which only really comes into the story in a meta manner, through yourself as the player.

So yes, the choice to support the circle or the templars is a difficult one for me as a player, but I don't see anyone but MageHawke having much trouble with it, given the circumstances.

I mean come on. Those renegade mages were damn annoying to fight. I'll take on a Templar any day over one of those basards.

Haha, I was a MageFemHawke. I wa so distraught between having to choose who to side with, but in the end I was even more suprised to find out that my decisions ultimately mattered moot. 

I did feel cheated siding with the mages  (I haven't read the whole thread yet so forgive me until I do) - innocents shouldn't die but if there is anything I am against, it is blood magic. Just sort of defeated everything for me :/

[Raiil]

 I didn't. My Hawke has lost damn near everything, and it's mainly due to the Chantry vs Mages thing. The templars like to blah blah about how they're needed to control dangerous mages. Well, most of the ones (mages) you run across in non-combat seem to be pretty chill, and the dangerous one played Pick Your Own Body Parts with mummy dearest. Where were they then?

From her pov, a) Anders is the only thing she has left, since Carver decided he was tired of sucking his thumb in frustration and joined the Templars, and mother, father, and sister who apparently I actually got along with have all trotted off for the great unknown, and It's not like anyone else was helping her out. She dug her way to the top with blood, sweat and tears. And the templars would look down on her for that? Thyey'd go after Anders, who did more to save refugees when he got there then the Chantry bothered to do?


On the other hand, the mages have been in a crap situation. She was raised to go against the Chantry, at least to a degree. People she can empathise with are hurting, The man she loves has been treated like a dog. She helped drag Kirkwall out of the darkness and then she's treated as if she's a dangerous thing about to go boom?

Well, sometimes it'll happen.

[mehh]

FrozenFire42 wrote...

Ugh, yes! This frustrated me to no end. The worst one for me though was at the end after Anders blows up the chantry. I had been bitter, bitter rivals with Sebastian the entire game, then he threatens to kill my man and I am forced to let him walk away to gather forces and do just that? Why couldn't I set him on fire or something?

After Anders nuked the chantry and Sebastian was talking smack about him and how I had to kill Anders or he was going to leave, I was laughing and thinking to myself "Yeah, yeah, talk big, but as soon as you stop I'm going to get some sweet murder knife action." And then he finished and I just had to accept that he was threatening to bring an army to kill my buddy.

That whole scene was crap. Everyone just stands there saying that they are going to kill eachother and noone is shouting or yelling over eachother, but instead they each get their chance to threaten each other's lives and then have Hawke respond to them individually.

[Never]

I sided with the Templars more often than the mages throughout the game (because wtf 90% of the mages in game were bastards), but in the end I chose to protect the mages. I couldn't kill my sister, and Orisino seemed to reasonable. Although, during the chase to find Mother, that letter signed "O" gave me a terrible feeling.
This time I think I'll take Bethany to the Deep Roads, and stab lots of mages in the end.

[Auresta]

mynameisdanza wrote...

I sided with the Templars more often than the mages throughout the game (because wtf 90% of the mages in game were bastards), but in the end I chose to protect the mages. I couldn't kill my sister, and Orisino seemed to reasonable. Although, during the chase to find Mother, that letter signed "O" gave me a terrible feeling.
This time I think I'll take Bethany to the Deep Roads, and stab lots of mages in the end.

Orisino seemed reasonable. 

Blasted blood magic!

[Never]

mehh wrote...

FrozenFire42 wrote...

Ugh, yes! This frustrated me to no end. The worst one for me though was at the end after Anders blows up the chantry. I had been bitter, bitter rivals with Sebastian the entire game, then he threatens to kill my man and I am forced to let him walk away to gather forces and do just that? Why couldn't I set him on fire or something?

After Anders nuked the chantry and Sebastian was talking smack about him and how I had to kill Anders or he was going to leave, I was laughing and thinking to myself "Yeah, yeah, talk big, but as soon as you stop I'm going to get some sweet murder knife action." And then he finished and I just had to accept that he was threatening to bring an army to kill my buddy.

That whole scene was crap. Everyone just stands there saying that they are going to kill eachother and noone is shouting or yelling over eachother, but instead they each get their chance to threaten each other's lives and then have Hawke respond to them individually.

I don't remember any threats. Maybe Sebastian... Perhaps I needed more rivals. Merrill was a rival, but she just suggested we take him with us.

[Raiil]

mynameisdanza wrote...

mehh wrote...

FrozenFire42 wrote...

Ugh, yes! This frustrated me to no end. The worst one for me though was at the end after Anders blows up the chantry. I had been bitter, bitter rivals with Sebastian the entire game, then he threatens to kill my man and I am forced to let him walk away to gather forces and do just that? Why couldn't I set him on fire or something?

After Anders nuked the chantry and Sebastian was talking smack about him and how I had to kill Anders or he was going to leave, I was laughing and thinking to myself "Yeah, yeah, talk big, but as soon as you stop I'm going to get some sweet murder knife action." And then he finished and I just had to accept that he was threatening to bring an army to kill my buddy.

That whole scene was crap. Everyone just stands there saying that they are going to kill eachother and noone is shouting or yelling over eachother, but instead they each get their chance to threaten each other's lives and then have Hawke respond to them individually.

I don't remember any threats. Maybe Sebastian... Perhaps I needed more rivals. Merrill was a rival, but she just suggested we take him with us.

Everyone I had commented, so basically everyone but Isabela, who took the first train out of Kirkwall. Smart move too, because if she pops in again, it's murder knife to the chest. (Excuse my bitterness; I brought her a pretty ship in a bottle and she bailed on me. FFFFF.)

I was pretty much at neutral with Merril, who sided with me. Sebastian went all holy stars and garters, kill blondie now, and then Fenris (also a rival with) got up in my face. I enjoyed killing him, tbh. Aveline, Anders, and Varric also stood with me. 

[AbsolutGrndZer0]

My first playthrough I was a mage that for the most part helped mages throughout (for the record, my Carver became a Warden) the mages, and I was floored when Orsino went all Harvester on us (I would like more information on that by the way... What DID he do? I heard he mentioned some research of some other mage or something? Wasn't sure in the heat of the combat and I didn't have subtitles on). I think overall, aside from her being pissed at Anders (but loving him, so she was able to sorta forgive him), if she could do it all again she'd still side with the mages (although she'd be making sure to stop Anders bomb), and do what she did. Wipe out the blood mages that made themselves known at the end, take down bat**** crazy Meredith, and let the remaining mages rebuild.

[AbsolutGrndZer0]

mynameisdanza wrote...

I sided with the Templars more often than the mages throughout the game (because wtf 90% of the mages in game were bastards), but in the end I chose to protect the mages. I couldn't kill my sister, and Orisino seemed to reasonable. Although, during the chase to find Mother, that letter signed "O" gave me a terrible feeling.
This time I think I'll take Bethany to the Deep Roads, and stab lots of mages in the end.

Actualy that's kinda my plan for my templar playthrough. I"m siding with the mages up until the deep roads, then I plan to take Bethany without Anders so she dies and isn't saved, then with the only mage she actually gives a damn about dead, she can side with the Templars.  Basically, she doesn't like mages, however her sister IS her sister, and she takes care of her, keeps an eye on her, and helps her to not stray from the good path.  Once she's dead, ok mages are all dangerous and need to die.