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Andrastes flaming pants, Anders! (Spoilers)


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#226
ZenoX

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First of all... I was playing as a Mage in this playthrough, I was supporting the mages without using Blood Magic and I was really friendly with Anders (100% aproval)... Trusted him with my life (seeing as he was the Healer I always had in my party).

Then he goes and blows up the Chantry...

I honestly felt betrayed... Wanted to hate him, but I didn't want to send him away or kill him... felt horrible when I spared him (He's my designated Healer... what can you do). Especially with Sebastian raging in the background.

During the rest of the endgame I was just sitting there... killing stuff.. but still thinking about that moment... Then Orsino went crazy and started using blood magic *facepalm*... I was starting to doubt my choice of supporting the mages. What a mess it became. Seriously... it felt like I was the only good mage there. While everyone around me either turns to blood magic or blows up the f***ing Chantry.

I Started to blame the game, started to think that I was dissapointed in the game.

But now I'm realising that... to provoke such an emotional response from me... it really shows how good the writers at BioWare's are. I will definitely play this again soon and try some different things.

Modifié par ZenoX, 14 mars 2011 - 11:52 .


#227
CardonT

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Sable Rhapsody wrote...

CardonT wrote...

By the way, why didn't I get the chance to kill Sebastian when he was demanding Anders' death and threatening me with his army?


That...would've been nice.  And in my mind, that's probably exactly what my Hawke would've done in the middle of Seb's little revenge speech.  Either that, or she'd hunt him down herself afterwards.

Ah, well.  At least she and Anders are BOTH insane.  That makes it ok, right? :P


Well, ok, he said he was going to retreat peacefully, but only to come back and hide behind his army. I don't think I would just let him go away in that case. What do we have our special cutscene-murder-knife of awesomeness for?

#228
EvilEresh

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cglasgow wrote...

EvilEresh wrote...

It's not a civilian landmark.

It's a church.  People go to Mass in it.

Not to mention, its in the middle of town, and he took out an entire city block.  

IIRC, there was burning rubble landing as far away as the Docks, for God's sake!   Which is quite a trip when you're starting from Hightown!


It's not a civilian landmark.  It's the center of power for the Chantry, which is a bit different from a church.  It's a center of political power and the home of the largest military force in the land.  The templars are mentioned as being the largest standing army in any area, repeatedly in the games.  You can put whatever topping you want on it, but that makes it not a civilian landmark.  

#229
Veritrix

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It made me wish I had a slap Anders mod. Because that boy needs a good strong slap.

#230
mredders91

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yes a good slap mod will do for me to thxs

but yeah i felt i was the only sane mage there i still do alot of what they did had no reason to it why do mages need blood magic when they have so many other way to burn freeze smash etc anything in there way

as for blowing up buildings i realy did see the point couldnt of hes jus kill the templars and got the same reaction?

Modifié par mredders91, 15 mars 2011 - 12:28 .


#231
AloraKast

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So I just loaded a previous save so that I could experience what it would be like to execute Anders. And oh my... In addition to the totally heart wrentching... no, make that totally heart shredding moment of actually having to pick that choice of executing Anders... well, I was already in pain but then my Hawke simply stabbed a dagger into his back. Just like that... Making that decision was so SO difficult for me and yet my Hawke didn't even have the decency to look him in the eye while she was plunging a knife into his heart. There was no moment between them, even as companions on a very long road (at the very least 6 years), no painful look in Hawke's eyes as she gazed at her friend, not even did she lay her hand on his shoulder in a parting way, basically saying goodbye while also trying to give some sort of last comfort to Anders before she took his life. It was simply that... an execution. Oh Maker, I feel dirty now. :crying:

I fear that I will feel the same when I side with the Templars just to see how that plays out.

Forgive me Sebastian, but no matter how much you rile at me, no matter what you threaten me with... I simply cannot allow Anders to be executed. I cannot and will not allow him to be killed... both because he is a dear friend (or in some cases, a lover) and because he doesn't get to take the easy way out, after what he's done. He will live so that he may bear witness to what he brought about... Trust me, Sebastian, as you have trusted me all these years and remain at my side while we take on this new world on the very brink of war.

I am in a desperate need of a shower...

PS. The only viable way I can forsee my Hawke ever executing Anders would be to drive that very same dagger through her own heart as Anders is lying there dying. The betrayal is that great. Both his betrayal of Hawke, and Hawke's betrayal of him. But of course, then Fenris would object... Ok, so in a playthrough where Hawke is romancing Anders exclusively would that ever be a possibility. Every other playthrough, my Hawke simply cannot bring herself to kill him. This is not Justice Sebastian... this is Vengeance.

Modifié par AloraKast, 15 mars 2011 - 12:51 .


#232
cglasgow

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EvilEresh wrote...

It's not a civilian landmark.  It's the center of power for the Chantry, which is a bit different from a church.

... by that 'logic', the Vatican isn't a church either.   Do I even need to explain what's wrong with that one?

Not to mention, of course, that even buildings full of politicians are not considered legitimate bombing targets nowadays.  Terrorism is the deliberate use of violence against noncombatants in the pursuit of a political objective, remember?  Bombing a capitol building is about as political as it gets!

It's a center of political power and the home of the largest military force in the land

Wrong again.  The Kirkwall templar barracks is in the Gallows, not the Chantry building in Hightown.

Or did you somehow miss all of the people, including me, who were saying that they'd have been perfectly fine if Anders put that bomb in Meredith's office?   (Although given how close her office is to where the Circle hangs out, he'd need to tone down the blast radius a little, but meh, he's the guy building the bomb anyway, he can do that.)

Modifié par cglasgow, 15 mars 2011 - 12:54 .


#233
Faridle

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My reaction!
oh saarebaas

#234
Shandyr

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You know I romanced Anders as well.
And I was warned about him - by himself several times AND by Sebastian AND by Varric.

But I thought oh yeah thats just "cute" or even more "romantic"
Because I remembered Wynne warning my Warden about Zevran and in the end Wynne saw that it was real love and she gave me her blessings

But this was totally different. I was really shocked.
I didnt execute him, I fought for the mages and ran off with him.

Well how can I say
My Hawke's reasons for sparing Anders:

- First of all love makes blind, doesnt it? And my Hawke's deeply in love with Anders.
- Like another post said: Hawke had been warned! He didnt not know about Anders actual plan - but he had been warned several times but chose to ignore these warnings. Then he's responsible for ignoring them.
- Practical thinking: Anders' death would be of no use to anyone. It's rather like Merrill says: he should be alive and make up for his deeds.

Some further notes:
Elthina is one of the most powerful persons in Kirkwall. And she just does NOTHING when war is about to begin. What does she do? Praying that her Maker appears and sets matters alright?
In my opinion you can be guilty if you do NOTHING to prevent crimes. Especially when holding such a powerful position.

Conclusion:
Yet, we all know Bioware. That's whats so fantastic about the story-writers there.
You can argue on and on because you could justify every point of view.
Ingame you can justify siding for the Templars, siding for the mages, killing Anders, sparing him.
And no matter what choice you make theres always this foul aftertaste.

That's why I love Bioware's stories.

#235
Sarah1281

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Not to mention mages without a circle created the blight!

There is no proof. That's just the Chantry's version of events to justify why they oppress mages. It may have happened, it may not have. The anti-mage Chantry's claims that mages are behind the greatest evil in Thedas really shouldn't be mindlessly accepted.

#236
Kattack

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I really don't think sparing Anders will cause him to blow up another Chantry. His entire goal with the bomb was to start the war. Goal complete. His job, as he sees it, is done now. At this point I don't think he'll feel the need to resort to any more drastic measures.
(And from what I can see, a great deal of Hawke characters that spared him, probably beat him later in camp. xD)
And it's sad, but thinking about it, I don't think he saw any of those innocent people as true innocents. I'm playing through a second time, and it feels like he truly believes that people who just support the chantry are part of the problem too. It's not just the templars to him, it's the entire society that just accepts what's happening to the mages.
I'd like to think that my Hawke threatened to tie him up like a Qunari mage if he ever pulled that crap on her again, especially since he lied about it. She probably would too. O_o

#237
cglasgow

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Kattack wrote...

I really don't think sparing Anders will cause him to blow up another Chantry.

Maybe not, but I can totally imagine him killing some innocent bystander because they're 'not fighting the templars hard enough'.

#238
Thel Vakarian

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My first reaction was...

Vashedin, Anders... Why.. the... hell... did... you do THAT! Although it did look pretty awesome.

But, when i had to chose between Sebastian and Anders, i had to pick Anders since he is a long time friend.

Also, if you didn't do the quest where you take Anders to the chantry and he plants the bomb. Will Sebastian still make you chose between Anders and him, or does every still like each other except the mages and the templars?

Modifié par Thel Vakarian, 15 mars 2011 - 02:23 .


#239
Furtled

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The thing that fully tipped me into sticking with killing him was Sebastian's reaction - despite understanding Ander's motivation and on some level even agreeing with him a teeny bit. Almost wish I'd played through first without the DLC to see if I'd felt differently.

Anywho - kudos to the creators, that was some cracking storytelling.

#240
kennyv217

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"Oh hell no, you DID NOT just do that!" It was pretty interesting cause I played a female Hawke and romanced him and I had her kill him, so it was a pretty awesome plot device

#241
Sarah1281

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So a few pages back people were talking about not wanting to kill Anders because that would make him a martyr. While that's a valid fear, would leaving him alive really be any better? That would be setting the example that such acts can go unpunished.

#242
Raiil

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Sarah1281 wrote...

So a few pages back people were talking about not wanting to kill Anders because that would make him a martyr. While that's a valid fear, would leaving him alive really be any better? That would be setting the example that such acts can go unpunished.


Leaving him alive and then forcing him to atone for his sins would- if that is a possibility, which can't be proved or disproved due to the rather loose ending. Martyrs are rather dangerous people, when it comes to it.

#243
Sable Rhapsody

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Sarah1281 wrote...

So a few pages back people were talking about not wanting to kill Anders because that would make him a martyr. While that's a valid fear, would leaving him alive really be any better? That would be setting the example that such acts can go unpunished.


I think it's just a no-win situation.  Anders forces everyone's hand and puts himself in a spot where no matter what, he'll contribute to his cause.  If he dies, he becomes a martyr.  If he lives, he gets away with an act of incredible violence, and can continue his war to free the mages.  

GODDAMMIT ANDERS.  It'd be so much easier to hate him if he wasn't so damned sympathetic, and so ridiculously SEXY!

#244
Addai

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EvilEresh wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
But the Chantry also sees itself as protecting the innocent from the unbridled power of mages.

Regardless, blowing up a civilian landmark, a place with no military significance, where ordinary people come to pray and seek charity, and in a square where there might simply be passers-by doing their thing- in order to further a political cause- I don't see how that can't be called terrorism.


It's not a civilian landmark.  The Chantry controls the templars who control the mages.  If you have DA:O, talk to Alistair about his time training with the templars.  The Chantry uses lyrium to drug the templars and then controls them through their addiction.  When they're no longer useful because of the addiction (like Rodrick), they're retired and generally put to pasture with their addled brains.  Without being active in the templars, it's difficult or very expensive to get lyrium.  It's also illegal.  In order for a templar to continue receiving lyrium, they have to stay a templar.  There's a high drive to meet your quota of maleficar or else.  

It's the same argument that people make who say that hitting an economic center is hitting the real center of power, so they consider it justified to blow up shopping centers or office buildings.  If you want to hit a military target, hit the templar hall, not the place where the little old widow comes to bend the knee to the Maker.

I know all the anti-Chantry arguments, and usually I make them.  However IMO nothing excuses what Anders did.  Not even "the spirit made me do it."

Modifié par Addai67, 15 mars 2011 - 03:06 .


#245
Raiil

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Addai67 wrote...

EvilEresh wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
But the Chantry also sees itself as protecting the innocent from the unbridled power of mages.

Regardless, blowing up a civilian landmark, a place with no military significance, where ordinary people come to pray and seek charity, and in a square where there might simply be passers-by doing their thing- in order to further a political cause- I don't see how that can't be called terrorism.


It's not a civilian landmark.  The Chantry controls the templars who control the mages.  If you have DA:O, talk to Alistair about his time training with the templars.  The Chantry uses lyrium to drug the templars and then controls them through their addiction.  When they're no longer useful because of the addiction (like Rodrick), they're retired and generally put to pasture with their addled brains.  Without being active in the templars, it's difficult or very expensive to get lyrium.  It's also illegal.  In order for a templar to continue receiving lyrium, they have to stay a templar.  There's a high drive to meet your quota of maleficar or else.  

It's the same argument that people make who say that hitting an economic center is hitting the real center of power, so they consider it justified to blow up shopping centers or office buildings.  If you want to hit a military target, hit the templar hall, not the place where the little old widow comes to bend the knee to the Maker.

I know all the anti-Chantry arguments, and usually I make them.  However IMO nothing excuses what Anders did.  Not even "the spirit made me do it."


The physical Chantry building is not a military building; it is, however, the actual, not psuedo, seat of power. The Knight-Commanders bow to the wishes of the Grand Cleric; they're not the final boss of the game, so to speak. (Game in general, not DA2 itself.) It's more like hitting a political center, only in the DA verse, it also houses innocents.

I'm curious to know how many real innocents were in the area- meaning actual civilians, not people who are officially affiliated with the Chantry.

#246
Addai

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The discussion is probably moot because in an explosion of that massive size, a good bit of Hightown and maybe the viscount's palace is gone, too. It's more like taking out a district.

#247
Sarah1281

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Though you have to wonder. Everyone standing right outside the Chantry doors was just fine. Was that just for the sake of the plot?

And you know what would have been a much better time to detonate the Chantry? After Meredith and Orsino had gone inside of it to complain to the Grand Cleric. Anders already thought Orsino was useless so his wouldn't be a great loss and Meredith was one of the biggest zealots around. Yeah, he wouldn't have gotten to give his Hannibal Lecture but it would have been more practical.

#248
Dr_Vile

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 I'm apparently one of the few people who didn't have a problem with what Anders did (well, beyond the initial "Creators! What have you done?!?" reaction).
 The main sticking point seems to be the idea that the Chantry (and Elthina in particular) were completely innocent in the matter of the Templar abuses in Kirkwall. But they weren't.
 Guilty? No.
 Complicit? Yes.

 Elthina could have put a stop to Meredith when it became apparent that she was going off the deep end. She could have relieved her of her command and ordered the other Templars to enforce it. Which they would have to do, since it is the Chantry and not the Knight-Commander who is ultimately in charge of the Templars, and as the ranking member of the clergy in Kirkwall Elthina was the highest figure of authority present. As much as she would have liked to remain neutral, by the very nature of being the Grand Cleric she was up to her eyebrows in it. She should have gotten involved. She had a duty to get involved. Meredith was quite clearly overstepping her authority by preventing the selection of a new Viscount and enforcing Templar rule.
 After the death of the Viscount and his son, Elthina became the most important public figure in Kirkwall. As the supreme local authority in both secular and religious matters, she had to take a stance.
 But she refused. She shirked her responsibility.
 Did she deserve to die for her non-action? No.
 Was she entirely innocent in the whole sorry mess? No.

 To my mind, the entire reason why Anders chose Elthina and the Chantry as the target of his magical explodey... thing, is painfully obvious. Leaving aside the question of difficulty of planting an explosive unnoticed in the very seat of Templar power, and the proximity of the Circle and the certainty of heavy Mage casualties, Anders' motivation has to be examined.
 He doesn't want to remove Meredith from power. He doesn't want to resolve the situation for the Kirkwall Circle. His aims are not to simply put an end to the Kirkwall Templar abuses, but to tear down the very institution itself. He wanted to provoke a war between the Templars and the Mages. He wanted to spark a revolution. And destroying both the Chantry and the only person who could prevent full-blown war was the only way to do it.
 So was it an act of terrorism?
 Hard to say. I suppose if you want to define it as any use of violence by a minority (or in this case a single person), then yes. By this definition, whether or not the Chantry is a civilian or a military target is irrelevant. It's an act of terrorism regardless.

 But let's examine the other argument, for a moment: that it was not terrorism, but an act of war. In this instance, the nature of the Chantry as a place of worship versus a viable military target is all important. If it can be defined as the latter, then its destruction is a perfectly acceptable opening salvo/declaration of war. Yes, presumably a lot of worshippers would have been killed (although it depends entirely upon the time of day and whether or not there were any religious services going on - especially since every time Hawke goes in there there's hardly anyone there at all, and during the cutscene Elthina seems to be pretty much alone on that little podium in front of the statue of Andraste) but even so, it is the seat of Chantry and Templar authority in Kirkwall, and represents an important tactical/military target, and one that is integral to Anders' goals.
 Killing Meredith would resolve the situation in Kirkwall, but it would not liberate all the mages in Thedas. For that he needed something bigger than the assassination of a single politically inconvenient target. He needed a symbol, something that would put a spark to the tinderbox that is the Circle of Magi. And he succeeds. The mages all across Thedas rise up in open rebellion against the Chantry, which proves that no matter what you want to argue about whether or not Kirkwall is atypical (which I suspect it is) there was certainly a deep undercurrent of tension/discontent in all the Circles, and that the situation in Kirkwall was merely the instigating event for a war that had been coming for quite some time.

 Revolutions are not civilized. They are not bloodless (even the so-called "Glorious/Bloodless Revolution"). Casualties occur on all sides, whether Revolutionary, Counter-revolutionary or even those who do not take either side. And the Chantry are, by reason of supporting the Templars, certainly firmly in the counter-revolutionary camp. In Anders' war, the Chantry are the enemy. They prop up a regime that he is trying to tear down, that he feels is a great force for evil in the world.
 It is important to note that the concept of 'Civilians' did not enter into the medieval concept of war. If your prince went to war, you were dragged along with him, whether as soldiers or providing the coin/materials for him to prosecute his war. If you were unfortunate enough to live in a war zone, then you were up to your neck in it. You were pretty much guaranteed to be screwed over at some point, often by both sides. Non-combatant casualties were a fact and fixture of medieval warfare, whether to direct attack, starvation, or incidental raping/murdering. It doesn't enter into the medieval mindset not to kill as many of your enemies as you can, and to use whatever methods are at your disposal to do so - including killing their supporters/peasants to deprive them of resources. Those who were in the Chantry at the time were also complicit in propping up the Templar regime, as were Meredith and Elthina. To a lesser extent, yes.
 But complicit nonetheless.

 Can his attack be both terrorism and an act of war? I don't know.
 Good and evil; right and wrong: it's all subjective in the end. The world of Dragon Age has no clear cut morally-superior choices/outcomes (apart from a few isolated incidents in DA:O, like the whole Connor mess). We are bombarded by the concept of the inescapable duality of Good versus Evil, where we're always the former, and they're always the latter. It's difficult to see in shades of grey, and some would argue that they don't exist. A 'with us or against us' attitude pervades modern culture, and we can't help but project it onto situations that are unfamiliar to us or make us uncomfortable.
 The question of terrorism versus act of war will probably rage for quite some time. Perhaps it will never be resolved. But in the end we all come down on one side or the other. And I'm on the latter.

 To me, Anders' actions were extreme, but necessary. And justified.
The situation with the Circle needed to change. Yes, some mages resort to blood magic (and I found it very odd that Mage!Hawke sounded horrified at the thought, yet the first specialisation I picked was Blood Mage) but not all of them do. Yes, the majority of mages, when backed into a corner will resort to it. But why shouldn't they? At the end, the Templars are invoking the Rite of Annulment, and are going to kill all the mages regardless. At that point, they have literally nothing to lose, and who wouldn't use every means at their disposal in order to survive? Sure, mages have an extra option, but merely having it does not make them inherently evil, nor does it make them any more prone to corruption than non-mages. Meredith proved that. Nor are they alone in being at risk from demonic possession, something that DA2 goes to great lengths to point out.
 Is Anders a bad person for doing it? Of that I have no doubt: of course he is, but so are a lot of other people.
 Does the fact that others do similar things justify his actions? No.
 Does it excuse him? Of course not.
 It wasn't nice. It wasn't pretty. But it was necessary.


TLDR: Anders is an awesome murdering b******, the Chantry and Templars suck.  Image IPB


And I swear if Cassandra even tries to get Hawke to help her bring the mages back under Chantry authority she's getting a fireball to the face.

Modifié par Dr_Vile, 15 mars 2011 - 03:40 .


#249
Giggles_Manically

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Considering I put a dagger into his spine for what he did I dont think Cassandra needs my help to find him.

#250
Sarah1281

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Elthina could have put a stop to Meredith when it became apparent that she was going off the deep end. She could have relieved her of her command and ordered the other Templars to enforce it.

Doesn't her codex say something about how people wanted her to step down due to her age compromising her ability to be the Grand Cleric so she relied heavily on Meredith but they couldn't remove her because she was so popular with the people? I don't think that Elthina really had it in her to stop what was coming, even had Anders not intervened. She had a responsibility to step down since she couldn't adequately perform her duties but who knew what her replacement would be like? The strictly neutral Elthina would be better than someone on Meredith's side.

For that he needed something bigger than the assassination of a single politically inconvenient target. He needed a symbol, something that would put a spark to the tinderbox that is the Circle of Magi. And he succeeds. The mages all across Thedas rise up in open rebellion against the Chantry, which proves that no matter what you want to argue about whether or not Kirkwall is atypical (which I suspect it is) there was certainly a deep undercurrent of tension/discontent in all the Circles, and that the situation in Kirkwall was merely the instigating event for a war that had been coming for quite some time.

It seems that for all that Anders talked about wanting to help the mages, he really needed Meredith and her insanity. If she hadn't kept pushing the mages then they could have maintained the status quo and Anders couldn't have started anything alone. If Meredith hadn't ordered the execution of everyone in the Circle because of what a non-Circle mage did then the rebellion never would have sprung up. Had she behaved like a reasonable person and blamed Anders' actions on Anders and perhaps Hawke then Orsino would have backed the decision (see how quickly he caved on Meredith's initial demand that the entire Circle be searched for blood magic) and there would have been no rebellion.

The mages didn't rise up because one Chantry was destroyed. The mages rose up because Meredith tried to kill everyone in the Kirkwall Circle and the other mages wouldn't stand for it. The Chantry did send troops but had Meredith managed to contain it and hold the REAL guilty party responsible would the situation have gotten bad enough for the Divine to need to send troops? It seems far more likely that without Meredith pushing the templars and doing what Anders says he wants to end then his revolution never would have been possible and he just would have made things worse for the mages in their Chantry-controlled Circles.