552 réponses à ce sujet

[leggywillow]

Addai67 wrote...

The discussion is probably moot because in an explosion of that massive size, a good bit of Hightown and maybe the viscount's palace is gone, too. It's more like taking out a district.

It couldn't have been that destructive.  Hawke, Meredith, Orsino, and the entire gang were standing right outside it (at the bottom of the stairs) about to go in, if I recall correctly?  They were nearby, at least.

[Dr_Vile]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Elthina could have put a stop to Meredith when it became apparent that she was going off the deep end. She could have relieved her of her command and ordered the other Templars to enforce it.

Doesn't her codex say something about how people wanted her to step down due to her age compromising her ability to be the Grand Cleric so she relied heavily on Meredith but they couldn't remove her because she was so popular with the people? I don't think that Elthina really had it in her to stop what was coming, even had Anders not intervened. She had a responsibility to step down since she couldn't adequately perform her duties but who knew what her replacement would be like? The strictly neutral Elthina would be better than someone on Meredith's side.

For that he needed something bigger than the assassination of a single politically inconvenient target. He needed a symbol, something that would put a spark to the tinderbox that is the Circle of Magi. And he succeeds. The mages all across Thedas rise up in open rebellion against the Chantry, which proves that no matter what you want to argue about whether or not Kirkwall is atypical (which I suspect it is) there was certainly a deep undercurrent of tension/discontent in all the Circles, and that the situation in Kirkwall was merely the instigating event for a war that had been coming for quite some time.

It seems that for all that Anders talked about wanting to help the mages, he really needed Meredith and her insanity. If she hadn't kept pushing the mages then they could have maintained the status quo and Anders couldn't have started anything alone. If Meredith hadn't ordered the execution of everyone in the Circle because of what a non-Circle mage did then the rebellion never would have sprung up. Had she behaved like a reasonable person and blamed Anders' actions on Anders and perhaps Hawke then Orsino would have backed the decision (see how quickly he caved on Meredith's initial demand that the entire Circle be searched for blood magic) and there would have been no rebellion.

The mages didn't rise up because one Chantry was destroyed. The mages rose up because Meredith tried to kill everyone in the Kirkwall Circle and the other mages wouldn't stand for it. The Chantry did send troops but had Meredith managed to contain it and hold the REAL guilty party responsible would the situation have gotten bad enough for the Divine to need to send troops? It seems far more likely that without Meredith pushing the templars and doing what Anders says he wants to end then his revolution never would have been possible and he just would have made things worse for the mages in their Chantry-controlled Circles.

 I agree with the latter point, but that's precisely the reason why he did what he did in Kirkwall at that particular time and place. Why not sooner? Because it wouldn't have accomplished anything. I'd argue that the reason he did it when and where he did was precisely because Meredith was in a position of power and had been cracking down on the mages. In my opinion, he anticipated that she'd react like she did. He knew that it would provoke her, and that the act would also remove the last voice of reason in Kirkwall. At that point, Meredith would no doubt crack down on the mages to an even greater degree without the tempering influence of Elthina. He did it at a time when she had already demonstrated that her grip on sanity/reasonableness was slipping, and that she'd see it as proof that all mages were evil.

 As for the former, that particular codex entry pops up before Meredith has instituted Templar rule in Kirkwall. The way people are cheering for Orsino when he makes his speeches, it seems pretty obvious that her popularity had been falling for quite some time. And she shouldn't have paid any heed to the effect dismissing Meredith would have on her own position and power. She had a duty to keep the Templars devoted to their true purpose: watching the Circle mages for signs of blood magic/demonic possession. She should have fulfilled that duty, rather than be willing to allow the people of Kirkwall to suffer in order for her to keep her position.

[Sarah1281]

I agree with the latter point, but that's precisely the reason why he did what he did in Kirkwall at that particular time and place.

That makes me wonder what he would have done had Meredith never gotten her hands on the idol. Things were still worse than Anders was willing to accept (Karl being made Tranquil really took a lot out of him) but not too worrying. She probably wouldn't have increased the pressure on the mages pushing them to the breaking point without the idol (a position Varric seems to agree with when he tells Cassandra that if they had known what would be down in the Deep Roads, everything might have turned out differently) and so things wouldn't have been so perfectly set up for Anders to start his revolution. He would still want a revolution to free the Circle but I don't see how he could have gone about achieving it.

As for the former, that particular codex entry pops up before Meredith has instituted Templar rule in Kirkwall. The way people are cheering for Orsino when he makes his speeches, it seems pretty obvious that her popularity had been falling for quite some time. And she shouldn't have paid any heed to the effect dismissing Meredith would have on her own position and power. She had a duty to keep the Templars devoted to their true purpose: watching the Circle mages for signs of blood magic/demonic possession. She should have fulfilled that duty, rather than be willing to allow the people of Kirkwall to suffer in order for her to keep her position.

That wasn't what I meant. The codex entry said that there were people with power who felt that because of Elthina's advancing age she couldn't perform her duties well enough anymore and should step down. These people who wanted her to step down could not forcibly remove her as she was too popular with the people. If her popularity was low enough by the time the third act started, maybe someone should have tried to forcibly replace her but that might have only made the chaos worse.

I don't think that Elthina neglected her duties or kept Meredith around to keep her position or look good. I think she did it because she was just not up to her duties anymore and needed to step down. Not stepping down was her failure because she could not handle being Grand Cleric when Kirkwall was at peace without relying on Meredith so she certainly couldn't handle it when all the tensions started. I disagree that she failed because she didn't step in and stop it because I don't think she could have. She still shouldn't have remained Grand Cleric if she was going to be virtually helpless, however, so that doesn't make her completely innocent.

[Addai]

leggywillow wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

The discussion is probably moot because in an explosion of that massive size, a good bit of Hightown and maybe the viscount's palace is gone, too. It's more like taking out a district.

It couldn't have been that destructive.  Hawke, Meredith, Orsino, and the entire gang were standing right outside it (at the bottom of the stairs) about to go in, if I recall correctly?  They were nearby, at least.

I thought you are in the Gallows area.  You see the explosion in the distance, and it's massive.  If it didn't destroy a good bit of that whole district, that's one smart poop bomb.

Modifié par Addai67, 15 mars 2011 - 04:23 .

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...
The mages didn't rise up because one Chantry was destroyed. The mages rose up because Meredith tried to kill everyone in the Kirkwall Circle and the other mages wouldn't stand for it. The Chantry did send troops but had Meredith managed to contain it and hold the REAL guilty party responsible would the situation have gotten bad enough for the Divine to need to send troops? It seems far more likely that without Meredith pushing the templars and doing what Anders says he wants to end then his revolution never would have been possible and he just would have made things worse for the mages in their Chantry-controlled Circles.

The justification she gives is that the populace will be appeased if the Circle is annulled, even though it wasn't a Circle mage who did it.  I thought it was a weak rationale which is why I sided with the mages, but even so, I doubt the populace will be appeased.  I foresee a pretty hefty backlash against mages.

So sure, to the other poster- I get that Anders was trying to set off a war.  He did it using an act of terror, however.

[leggywillow]

Addai67 wrote...

leggywillow wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

The discussion is probably moot because in an explosion of that massive size, a good bit of Hightown and maybe the viscount's palace is gone, too. It's more like taking out a district.

It couldn't have been that destructive.  Hawke, Meredith, Orsino, and the entire gang were standing right outside it (at the bottom of the stairs) about to go in, if I recall correctly?  They were nearby, at least.

I thought you are in the Gallows area.  You see the explosion in the distance, and it's massive.  If it didn't destroy a good bit of that whole district, that's one smart poop bomb.

Here's the video

It doesn't look like they're near the Chantry OR the Gallows... I think they're actually at the Lowtown entrance to  Hightown.  So it probably caused more damage to the surrounding area than I initially thought... but it does look like most of the surrounding buildings in Hightown are still mostly intact.  It was a weird-looking bomb, with the red lights and the floating bits of rubble.

[Miri1984]

Addai67 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
The mages didn't rise up because one Chantry was destroyed. The mages rose up because Meredith tried to kill everyone in the Kirkwall Circle and the other mages wouldn't stand for it. The Chantry did send troops but had Meredith managed to contain it and hold the REAL guilty party responsible would the situation have gotten bad enough for the Divine to need to send troops? It seems far more likely that without Meredith pushing the templars and doing what Anders says he wants to end then his revolution never would have been possible and he just would have made things worse for the mages in their Chantry-controlled Circles.

The justification she gives is that the populace will be appeased if the Circle is annulled, even though it wasn't a Circle mage who did it.  I thought it was a weak rationale which is why I sided with the mages, but even so, I doubt the populace will be appeased.  I foresee a pretty hefty backlash against mages.

So sure, to the other poster- I get that Anders was trying to set off a war.  He did it using an act of terror, however.

Most wars are started that way. But the potential for war has to be there in the first place in order for it to actually work. The assassination of Arch Duke Ferdinand didn't CAUSE WWI, but it certainly sparked it. Similarly, the destruction of the Chantry didn't cause the war between the Chantry and the mages. The conditions for war were already in place, it just needed one act for it to begin. Whether that act was Meredith's insanity or Anders' terrorism or a combination of the two is debatable. 

[Addai]

Miri1984 wrote...

Most wars are started that way. But the potential for war has to be there in the first place in order for it to actually work. The assassination of Arch Duke Ferdinand didn't CAUSE WWI, but it certainly sparked it. Similarly, the destruction of the Chantry didn't cause the war between the Chantry and the mages. The conditions for war were already in place, it just needed one act for it to begin. Whether that act was Meredith's insanity or Anders' terrorism or a combination of the two is debatable. 

That reasoning is undercut by Anders himself.  He says that he removed any possibility of compromise or mediation on purpose.  That means he thought that the situation could improve or at least continue on as it was.  It doesn't justify what he did that the Chantry waged its own pre-emptive wars in other places and times, or that they were part of the authority structure of Thedas society.  Society needs some pillars like that, and does best when these balance each other.  In a vacuum of civil authority, he decided to add a big pile of tinder and some gasoline.  Anarchy and chaos serve no one, the innocent and defenseless least of all.

[Miri1984]

Addai67 wrote...

That reasoning is undercut by Anders himself.  He says that he removed any possibility of compromise or mediation on purpose.  That means he thought that the situation could improve or at least continue on as it was.  It doesn't justify what he did that the Chantry waged its own pre-emptive wars in other places and times, or that they were part of the authority structure of Thedas society.  Society needs some pillars like that, and does best when these balance each other.  In a vacuum of civil authority, he decided to add a big pile of tinder and some gasoline.  Anarchy and chaos serve no one, the innocent and defenseless least of all.

But we know that "continuing as it was" was totally unacceptable to him, and to my mage Hawke as well for that matter. He knew that compromise and mediation wouldn't work, it'd been tried before and failed, and it would always end up with the circles continuing to exist in some form or another, which would in turn lead to the kinds of abuses Meredith was allowing (even BEFORE she went bat****). 

I disagree that he thought the situation could improve, by the way. I don't see ANY way the situation can improve by that point. In Kirkwall or anywhere else, short of war.

[adneate]

Miri1984 wrote...
But the potential for war has to be there in the first place in order for it to actually work. The assassination of Arch Duke Ferdinand didn't CAUSE WWI, but it certainly sparked it.

How did World War I end though? With millions dead for nothing, the war devastated Europe but none of it's causes were resolved. An entire generation sent to their deaths just so the world could do it all over again two decades later and still fail to resolve any of the problems of the 20th century.

War doesn't seem to ever solve anything yet so many look to it as the answer to their problems.

[leggywillow]

So even in the game, the Grand Cleric seems to be portrayed as an almost neutral party, the "chance to compromise".

But aren't the templars under the direct control of the Chantry?  Wouldn't Meredith and all the templars answer directly to her?  Shouldn't it have been her job to step in and make sure that concerns about templars abusing mages were being addressed?

[Deztyn]

EvilEresh wrote...

If you talk to the mages and templars in Ferelden, you get a lot of background on the mage situation in Thedas.  "They must be controlled because they are too powerful."  In Ferelden, Greagoir would only call it off if you found Irving still "pure."  He gave you a task that he believed impossible. 

Cglasgow answered this better than I could ever hope to so I have nothing to add.

How is it reasonable to sit and do nothing while the flames rise around you when you are the one person who can settle things?  She did nothing with the Qunari and she watched while the Templars and mages raged at each other, refusing to get involved.  She could have quieted Mother Petrice but she didn't.  She could have stepped in between Meredith and Orsinio earlier, but she chose to "trust in the Maker."  She chose to ignore this world for the next and that's where she ended up.

You do undertsand that the reason Anders dropped the bomb on her when he did the way he did is because he doesn't want compromise, He wants all or nothing, the mages will either be free or dead, nothing in between is acceptable to him. He says it himself. Could she have stepped in earlier? No one's denying that. But even if she had it wouldn't have been to praise or condemn either one. It would have been to mediate. Something Anders wouldn't want and IMO Orsino and Meredith wouldn't have accepted.

So...  It's ok if mages can die (both physically or emotionally) at the whim of someone else as long as no one else in the world is hurt?  I understand quite well what bringing down the existing power structure means for Thedas.  That still doesn't make the Chantry's hold over mages (or the way they treat Templars, for that matter) right.  

No. I'm saying that cheering for Anders starting a war that could cost more lives and cause more suffering for more people than the Chantry's ever caused to innocent mages, because you believe in the ideal he claims to be fighting for is wrong.

Provoking the issue the way he did is only going to turn even more people against mages. To the average man he's a monster. Hell, to the average mage he might be more monster than inspiration. An abomination whose heinous actions turned the whole world even more against them and in the eyes of most people justified every wrong they ever endured. "See, that's why you're all being killed or made tranquil. The Fereldan Circle thought he was harmless and let him escape over and over again without real consequence and look what he did."

Anders blew up a building and started a war. That's all. It could end in the slaughter of all mages and the adoption of even harsher methods of dealing with them in the future (Drowned at birth when possible is the prefered method) Or a new magocracy that would make the old Tevinters shiver with dread. Or anything in between. For now he's not a hero, not a martyr, or even a revolutionary. He didn't free anyone. He's just a terrorist.

Modifié par Deztyn, 15 mars 2011 - 05:37 .

[cave_fatuam]

@ leggywillow.
That's part of the problem. They can't answer to her if she's not saying anything. She's too busy sitting on her hands and chit-chatting with Sebastian. Personally, I can't help think the Grand Cleric is one of the people most to blame. Even if she'd fully backed the Templars, I would have had some respect for her. She stood for nothing besides waiting and letting things fester. Nice lady, ineffectual and frankly crappy leader.

"Love, life, and liberty. What more could a man want?"-Anders, Patrick Henry of Thedas... He's too violent to be T.J. XD

Modifié par cave_fatuam, 15 mars 2011 - 05:42 .

[adneate]

cave_fatuam wrote...
She stood for nothing besides waiting and letting things fester. Nice lady, ineffectual and frankly crappy leader.

Problem with that is that Anders assassinated her before she was forced to pick a side, when the time came for her to really step-up and use her position to mediate the crisis some nutjob abomination blew her up and rained flaming debris all over Kirkwall. Anders, whatever he is by this point in the game, knew exactly what his bombing would accomplish. He wanted a war, he wanted the finality of conflict. The Grand Cleric calming the situation by brokering some kind of comprimise was for him just as bad as her ordering the immediate execution of every Mage in Kirkwall.

So he killed her to get his war, just as every other zealot would.

[Durgon Ironfist]

I put Anders down for what he did. With the Grand Cleric's help I know there could have been peace perhaps change for the better. Cullen wanted to purge the circle in Origins but matured, accepted the thought of additional measures to encourage cooperation with the mages, and saw Meredith's madness even early on. Between the wise counsel of the Grand Cleric, First Enchanter, and someone like Cullen at the helm instead of Meredith, there could have been peace and change. Anders killed any chance of that along with countless innocents. I can't say I blame the First Enchanter either grief does terrible things to people. Still he was at fault for resorting to blood magic.

Modifié par Durgon Ironfist, 15 mars 2011 - 05:55 .

[SarahRhadis]

FadeTheAssassin wrote...

What was your guy's thoughts when Anders (Spoilers)























Blew up the chantry with that magic bomb? Seriously. (Mine is the topic title.)

I killed him... AND I was romancing him... AND I was supporting the mages.. But I liked the Grand Cleric.. and It just seemed like he was more abomination than Anders at that point. 

So I guess my response was.. "Why Anders... Why?!"

[Palathas]

Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

I love the range of responses everyone has to Anders's actions. We really wanted to create a situation without a clear-cut right and wrong. I wrote Anders, Sebastian, Bethany, Leandra, Elthina and Cullen, so I've certainly seen every side of the argument. Personally, my view of it is that Anders wants to blow up the Chantry AND wants to die for it -- that way he gets the revolution he/Justice believes is necessary, but still gives justice to those who died in the Chantry. Though I like the poetic justice of forcing him to live in the world his actions create.

I didn't think Ander's situation could get any more clear-cut. Appostate, Abomination, Terrorist, Murderer. Yes I could see that mages were suffering but want Anders did was far more than just wrong he also drags the champion right into the middle of it by exploiting their loyalty to him. What he did was not even close to Justice and it was barely even Vengeance as he was pretty indescriminate as to who he targetted.

He knew his actions would most likely get all mages killed yet he did it anyway, not to mention that from that point on, what was happening in Kirkwall at the circle had a good chance of expanding further afield after his antics. He also knew that it was specifically Knight-Commander Meredith that was the cause of all the suffering yet he did nothing to her nor the Templars but the soft and easy target of the Chantry.

He's lucky that I was very simpathetic towards the mages in my first playthrough but he shant receive the same understanding from other Hawke's but it may vary depending on class and how things unfold leading up to the event.

Modifié par Palathas, 15 mars 2011 - 06:04 .

[cave_fatuam]

@adneate, She couldn't ever be "forced" to take a side. She was just going to keep ****-footing around the issue until one side or the other exploded. What Anders did was extreme and possibly evil from a certain point of view, but it was something. War was inevitable. Peace was not an option in Kirkwall any more. As much as we would all love a happy-sunshine-merry-go-round solution, it was not possible. If not Anders, then someone would have struck that blow eventually.

@All
Did anyone really not know that something was up when he made you collect things and then go to the Chantry? Maybe, I'm just coo-coo bananas, but I knew in general what was about to go down if not the specifics.

Modifié par cave_fatuam, 15 mars 2011 - 06:12 .

[Addai]

Miri1984 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

That reasoning is undercut by Anders himself.  He says that he removed any possibility of compromise or mediation on purpose.  That means he thought that the situation could improve or at least continue on as it was.  It doesn't justify what he did that the Chantry waged its own pre-emptive wars in other places and times, or that they were part of the authority structure of Thedas society.  Society needs some pillars like that, and does best when these balance each other.  In a vacuum of civil authority, he decided to add a big pile of tinder and some gasoline.  Anarchy and chaos serve no one, the innocent and defenseless least of all.

But we know that "continuing as it was" was totally unacceptable to him, and to my mage Hawke as well for that matter. He knew that compromise and mediation wouldn't work, it'd been tried before and failed, and it would always end up with the circles continuing to exist in some form or another, which would in turn lead to the kinds of abuses Meredith was allowing (even BEFORE she went bat****). 

I disagree that he thought the situation could improve, by the way. I don't see ANY way the situation can improve by that point. In Kirkwall or anywhere else, short of war.

Normally I would argue the same- I do think the Circle system has failed.  However we see ample proof in DA2 that no other system fares better, and via Fenris we hear that the mess of Tevinter started first when mages began to rule themselves, i.e. that Fereldan mage boon (which I never took because I thought it useless).

I played several blood mages, but Anders has made a law abider out of me, I guess. 

Modifié par Addai67, 15 mars 2011 - 06:21 .

[adneate]

cave_fatuam wrote...
She couldn't ever be "forced" to take a side. She was just going to keep ****-footing around the issue until one side or the other exploded. What Anders did was extreme and possibly evil from a certain point of view, but it was something. War was inevitable. Peace was not an option in Kirkwall any more. As much as we would all love a happy-sunshine-merry-go-round solution, it was not possible. If not Anders, then someone would have struck that blow eventually.

She's dead Anders killed her so you can no more say she would never make a decision than I could say she'd get ride of Meredith and settle things down for the good of Kirkwall. It's telling though that Anders doesn't hit Templar Hall or a "Hard Target" he's a coward and hits a "Soft Target" blowing up a Church packed with non-combatants in the middle of a residential area. He had no interest in peace even if it was an option, his only desire was war.

War solves nothing, it creates victors and vanquished. The victors become complacent and the vanquished thrist for revenge looking for any moment of weakness to stike back. Anders has done nothing worthy of admiration, he has simply started the cycle of war again.

[Miri1984]

@Addai I agree, no other system in place NOW serves better, but I think what Thrask was doing is an indication of a NEW system that could possibly work. Why can't Templars and mages work together? They are two sides of the same coin, if you are a mage, you have a Templar assigned to you, not as a watcher or a prisoner, but a PARTNER... but that's just my little image of Thedas mage heaven. I won't inflict it on everyone.

Anders even acknowledges that mages are dangerous, in Awakenings he says that SOME sort of control is necessary, but it can be policed by mages, rather than enforced by others. Tevinter is an extreme example that doesn't work, but Anders doesn't agree with that either (there's dialogue in Awakenings that says as much).
As Bethany says to Fenris, "you have a sword, why aren't you killing someone right now?"

@Adneate The Chantry WAS the hard target. Innocent people had to die in order for the act to have any repercussions. If he'd just killed Meredith and a bunch of Templars, the world wouldn't be at war. He needed there to be a reaction against what he did, so what he did had to be, in a word, evil and monstrous.

Modifié par Miri1984, 15 mars 2011 - 06:31 .

[cave_fatuam]

Because Anders could totally wander around Templar Hall without Hawke with him.
And yeah, war is bad... I think everyone acknowledges that. No reasonable person is seriously all, "Yay! War!" War is a course of action, not a solution, anway. Alas, human nature is one of self-destruction. War and conflict have been an integral part of the human condition since there was a human condition.
Let it be said that I'm definitely not excusing what Anders did. I just think it was the inevitable. It was a lose-lose situation, as the end of the game evidenced. Lyrium-addled Knight Commander or crazed blood-mage First Enchanter? No one I want to take home to meet my mamae.

@Miri, Exactly. Good or bad, that was what was required to escalate the conflict past the point of uneasy tension to full out action.

Modifié par cave_fatuam, 15 mars 2011 - 06:43 .

[adneate]

A Chantry by nature of being a religious institution is always classified as a soft target, it serves no military function and is not fortified against attack. Terrorrists and insurgents attack them because they are difficult to defend and often are packed with civilians who can be slaughtered with ease.

Anders is cut from the same cloth as a suicide bomber in a crowded marketplace or someone who walks into a Sunni school in order to kill children. His actions are deplorable and inhuman, his actions condemn others to death. For that alone he is a vile waste of oxygen.

[adneate]

Modifié par adneate, 15 mars 2011 - 06:45 .

[leggywillow]

adneate wrote...

A Chantry by nature of being a religious institution is always classified as a soft target, it serves no military function and is not fortified against attack. Terrorrists and insurgents attack them because they are difficult to defend and often are packed with civilians who can be slaughtered with ease.

That's not strictly true in this case, since the templars are very much a military organization and they are part of the Chantry.

Modifié par leggywillow, 15 mars 2011 - 06:53 .