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Andrastes flaming pants, Anders! (Spoilers)


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#276
Miri1984

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adneate wrote...

A Chantry by nature of being a religious institution is always classified as a soft target, it serves no military function and is not fortified against attack. Terrorrists and insurgents attack them because they are difficult to defend and often are packed with civilians who can be slaughtered with ease.

Anders is cut from the same cloth as a suicide bomber in a crowded marketplace or someone who walks into a Sunni school in order to kill children. His actions are deplorable and inhuman, his actions condemn others to death. For that alone he is a vile waste of oxygen.


See, you're wrong here. This Chantry DID have a military function. For all that Meredith was Knight Commander, its pretty clear from Origins that the Templars answer finally to the Divine. The Grand Cleric is the only clear holder of power in Kirkwall. Even Sebastian acknowledges that she's a target. It wasn't a random act of violence, it was a precision strike at the heart of Chantry authority. An act of terrorism? Absolutely. But not against a soft target. 

#277
cave_fatuam

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@Adneate
Well, I guess Anders is just going to have to enjoy being the leader of the MRA. then. I say we dress Fenris up in a dress and not tell Anders' he's a fella or an Egyptian-styled alien.
The Chantry has a militant force within its walls without fail. There is always a full contingent of Templars running around... that's what Templars do, protect the Chantry.... well, when they're not doing the whole subjugate an entire group of people for being born a certain way thing. The entire basis of the Andrastian relgion is based on a rebellion and a war as well.
I think you and I are arguing two different points. You think Anders is evil for what he did. Fine, boo bad Anders!
I simply believe that someone would have done something similar to Anders at some point. I understand why he did it that doesn't mean I support it, but I can acknowdledge his motives and see their merits through his eyes. The bad guys are the bad guys, because you think you're the good guys. Boo bad situation!

Modifié par cave_fatuam, 15 mars 2011 - 07:06 .


#278
SarahRhadis

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Addai67 wrote...

Miri1984 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

That reasoning is undercut by Anders himself.  He says that he removed any possibility of compromise or mediation on purpose.  That means he thought that the situation could improve or at least continue on as it was.  It doesn't justify what he did that the Chantry waged its own pre-emptive wars in other places and times, or that they were part of the authority structure of Thedas society.  Society needs some pillars like that, and does best when these balance each other.  In a vacuum of civil authority, he decided to add a big pile of tinder and some gasoline.  Anarchy and chaos serve no one, the innocent and defenseless least of all.


But we know that "continuing as it was" was totally unacceptable to him, and to my mage Hawke as well for that matter. He knew that compromise and mediation wouldn't work, it'd been tried before and failed, and it would always end up with the circles continuing to exist in some form or another, which would in turn lead to the kinds of abuses Meredith was allowing (even BEFORE she went bat****). 

I disagree that he thought the situation could improve, by the way. I don't see ANY way the situation can improve by that point. In Kirkwall or anywhere else, short of war.

Normally I would argue the same- I do think the Circle system has failed.  However we see ample proof in DA2 that no other system fares better, and via Fenris we hear that the mess of Tevinter started first when mages began to rule themselves, i.e. that Fereldan mage boon (which I never took because I thought it useless).

I played several blood mages, but Anders has made a law abider out of me, I guess.  :)


Well.. There is one system that I think the game showed works.. The Qun. While very rigid.. They appear to have little to no abominations. While their system is harsh.. The Saarebas in Act 1 proved that Qunari Mages in general would rather die, than be lost to the Qun. I believe he tells anders something like "And how much suffering has your freedom caused you?" or something along those lines.

I believe it was Orsino who said that it was cruel to give Mages the illusion of hope.

#279
Sarah1281

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Yeah, right before he completely needlessly turned himself into a Harvester and only hindered his own cause while not really hurting the templars when we were winning. Image IPB

#280
leggywillow

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Sarah1281 wrote...

Yeah, right before he completely needlessly turned himself into a Harvester and only hindered his own cause while not really hurting the templars when we were winning. Image IPB


Orsino: I must do this... I have no choice
Hawke: First Enchanter? What are you doing?
Orsino: I'm going to... wait.  Are all the templars dead?
Hawke: Pretty much, yeah.  It wasn't too hard actually.  We're gonna go get the rest of them, are you coming?
Orsino: Uh.  Okay, sure.  Almost did something embarrassing there.

#281
Sjofn

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SarahRhadis wrote...
I believe it was Orsino who said that it was cruel to give Mages the illusion of hope.


Cullen says it about the Grand Cleric at some point, too, that she is being cruel giving mages the illusion of hope that compromise, rather than the templars telling them to shut up and sit down, was possible. I sort of agree with him.

#282
Sarah1281

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Sjofn wrote...

SarahRhadis wrote...
I believe it was Orsino who said that it was cruel to give Mages the illusion of hope.


Cullen says it about the Grand Cleric at some point, too, that she is being cruel giving mages the illusion of hope that compromise, rather than the templars telling them to shut up and sit down, was possible. I sort of agree with him.

Yeah but Cullen wasn't quite right, either. He thought that the Grand Cleric was planning on supporting the templars but hadn't come out and said it yet and we know that the Grand Cleric was planning on never picking a side. I guess, given the power imbalance, doing so is akin to siding with the templars since they don't really need her support and help and the mages do.

#283
SarahRhadis

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Sarah1281 wrote...

Yeah, right before he completely needlessly turned himself into a Harvester and only hindered his own cause while not really hurting the templars when we were winning. Image IPB



Oh I completely agree.. My first play through I was playing as a Mage, sympathetic to the cause.. But Anders, then Orsino.. It was demoralizing. Though I enjoyed it thats one of the things I love about the Dragon Age universe is just how scary magic is altogether. 

Which is why I believe the Qunari while brutally rigid are still the only ones who seem to have control of these issues.. Though seeing as how insular they seem to be with Par Vollen, and Saheron.. Maybe they do have problems but keep it secret out of pride.

#284
Veritrix

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I do believe that after running away with Anders in the end she did some serious slap-slap-kiss to him.

I wonder though what Justice would do if another Spirit of Justice (or Compassion) found him while he was in the fade. He's just as bad as the Baroness was at this point. Would it remind him of what he actually used to be? I'd like to think they'd kick his arse from there to the Black City and back for soiling the name of Justice.

#285
ohmyashlee

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I was devastated. I had a bad feeling when he was so secretive about the ingredients he was gathering. At first I thought he was going to do something drastic to himself to separate himself from Justice/Vengeance. Then I knew something else was up when he wanted to stop by the Chantry.

My heart just sank when he took a stand in the argument between Meredith and Orison. I knew something bad was going to happen then...BOOM. I seriously considered killing him for the sake of peace, but I just couldn't do it. The method he used was beyond crazy, but I couldn't kill him. Sebastian wanted to rip my head off, but other than that everyone stood by my decision to let Anders live. Fenris did leave me temporarily, but when I went to make my final stand he switched sides. I inevitably sided with the mages. Anders asked my rogue Hawke to run away with him and she did.

I don't regret the decisions I made, but none of them were easy especially in the end. It's been a popular phrase on this thread, but I will say: "GODAMNIT, ANDERS." Geezus.

#286
Dr_Vile

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adneate wrote...

A Chantry by nature of being a religious institution is always classified as a soft target, it serves no military function and is not fortified against attack. Terrorrists and insurgents attack them because they are difficult to defend and often are packed with civilians who can be slaughtered with ease.

Anders is cut from the same cloth as a suicide bomber in a crowded marketplace or someone who walks into a Sunni school in order to kill children. His actions are deplorable and inhuman, his actions condemn others to death. For that alone he is a vile waste of oxygen.


 See, this is the problem with trying to use the real world as a source of comparison. It never works. The Chantry isn't a religious institution as they exist today, it's also the primary political power in Thedas (apart from the Imperium and the Qun territories, obviously). They have absolute say in matters when it comes to mages - look at what happens when Alistair/Anora tries to free the Ferelden Circle at the behest of a Mage Warden - they flatly refuse them and that's the end of the matter.

 In Kirkwall, the Templars are in control, and the Chantry controls them. It's akin to attacking, say, the Pentagon in order to strike a blow against the US military (a better example would be bombing Whitehall to take out the military headquarters of the UK armed forces - it's a largely civillian building in a largely civillian area). As I mentioned in my incredibly long and boring post, there's no such thing as a civillian target in medieval warfare. Nor such a thing as a civillian. Everyone and everything is a viable target. And in this case it is an appropriate target, since it is the Chantry and not the Templars who are truly in charge in Kirkwall.

 Of course the real reason why Anders chose the Chantry as a target is obvious: he wants to provoke a war. By removing the only hope of mediation - Elthina - he hopes to provoke Meredith into action. And it succeeds. He provides Meredith with both the opportunity and the motive/justification to step it up a notch, which provides the spark needed for the war to begin.
 And he realises that what he did was wrong. He wants to die for what he's done, fully expects to die. He stepped forward and took responsibility for his actions, instead of anonymously planting the bomb or blowing himself up with it. He was willing to face justice for what he's done. To me, that speaks volumes.

 I'm not arguing that the destruction of the Chantry was a morally good act, but it was necessary in order to start a revolution, and it was a viable target by nature of the Chantry being both a political and military force throughout Thedas (and Kirkwall in particular). Not liking what Anders did is fine - hell, I didn't particularly like it - but trying to compare that to the real life bombing of a Church or a Mosque is absurd, since they aren't the centre of power for a military order against which the "terrorist" is trying to spark a revolution. Anders wants to overthrow the Templars - not just in Kirkwall but in all of Thedas - and to do that the Chantry also needs to be attacked and overthrown.
 For Anders there can be no compromise: the mages will be free from the Templars. And the Chantry is a part of the institution.

#287
Fraevar

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Anders, whoever he was before Justice merged with him is long gone. He even says it himself, Vengeance has no concept of mercy, he wants the Templars utterly annihilated and he's willing to go to any means to ensure that a war to accomplish this is sparked. My mage Hawke tried to talk him down, she figured that since she managed to live without hating the Templars that maybe she could make Anders see reason. But witnessing him deliberately using her to murder the one person who could prevent massive bloodshed, as well as countless others was just the final straw.

Anders was a good character because you could sympathize with his desire for freedom for mages, but the game makes a very good case of ensuring that you see how freedom for mages can work both ways.

#288
Sjofn

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Sarah1281 wrote...

Sjofn wrote...

SarahRhadis wrote...
I believe it was Orsino who said that it was cruel to give Mages the illusion of hope.


Cullen says it about the Grand Cleric at some point, too, that she is being cruel giving mages the illusion of hope that compromise, rather than the templars telling them to shut up and sit down, was possible. I sort of agree with him.

Yeah but Cullen wasn't quite right, either. He thought that the Grand Cleric was planning on supporting the templars but hadn't come out and said it yet and we know that the Grand Cleric was planning on never picking a side. I guess, given the power imbalance, doing so is akin to siding with the templars since they don't really need her support and help and the mages do.


Yeah, "not picking aside" essentially picks the Templar side, given they are the ones with power and they're the status quo. I liked the Grand Cleric, but she had to know that. Throwing up her hands and claiming it's all part of the Maker's plan, He'll sort if out was a copout. Siding with the mages would've gotten her in deep crap, even if she wanted to, so better to claim neutrality that just happens to give the edge of authority to the Templar side of things.


EDIT: Really, the more I think about it, the more annoying her inaction becomes to me. Even Sebastian calls her out on this, and she can almost do no wrong in his eyes. She easily diffuses the situation at the beginning of Act 3, but she can't be bothered to work towards a lasting solution, because she's worried someone will say she's taking sides? I am pretty sure even if Justice was still Justice, he'd think the Grand Cleric sucked.

Modifié par Sjofn, 15 mars 2011 - 11:51 .


#289
Gulielmus

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Sjofn wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Sjofn wrote...

SarahRhadis wrote...
I believe it was Orsino who said that it was cruel to give Mages the illusion of hope.


Cullen says it about the Grand Cleric at some point, too, that she is being cruel giving mages the illusion of hope that compromise, rather than the templars telling them to shut up and sit down, was possible. I sort of agree with him.

Yeah but Cullen wasn't quite right, either. He thought that the Grand Cleric was planning on supporting the templars but hadn't come out and said it yet and we know that the Grand Cleric was planning on never picking a side. I guess, given the power imbalance, doing so is akin to siding with the templars since they don't really need her support and help and the mages do.


Yeah, "not picking aside" essentially picks the Templar side, given they are the ones with power and they're the status quo. I liked the Grand Cleric, but she had to know that. Throwing up her hands and claiming it's all part of the Maker's plan, He'll sort if out was a copout. Siding with the mages would've gotten her in deep crap, even if she wanted to, so better to claim neutrality that just happens to give the edge of authority to the Templar side of things.


EDIT: Really, the more I think about it, the more annoying her inaction becomes to me. Even Sebastian calls her out on this, and she can almost do no wrong in his eyes. She easily diffuses the situation at the beginning of Act 3, but she can't be bothered to work towards a lasting solution, because she's worried someone will say she's taking sides? I am pretty sure even if Justice was still Justice, he'd think the Grand Cleric sucked.

There's a quote I can't place at the moment that goes something like "there is only one argument for doing something–the rest are arguments for doing nothing."

What Anders did was necessary. I would have killed him for it had he not been my only healer.

Modifié par Gulielmus, 15 mars 2011 - 11:55 .


#290
GunClubGirl

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Anyone else have a serious problem with the fact that Sebastian sees fit to demand you execute your teammate (and possibly lover) rather than suggest you allow him to do it himself? Had he offered to do it himself I still would have turned him down, but it seems really selfish for him to want someone murdered and ask you to be the one to do his dirty work rather than offer to do it himself. I really thought that took some serious nerve.

#291
Lilunebrium

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leggywillow wrote...

"GODDAMNIT, ANDERS."


This. I even had the urge to fling my controller at the tv. I mean, just... For the love of God, Anders. D:
I'm glad my Hawke had enough sense in her not to help him do it.

#292
MEfanPC

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Wow I totally see the Grand Clerics actions ( inaction) different. I saw her a someone willing to give her life to spark change to a system that is broken. She couldn't openly support changes in the chantry and circle so she let herself become a target for Anders. I honestly thought her inaction was a deliberate and cunning move. She maybe old but she isn't stupid, she saw what was coming, and said so when Anders finds Hawke in the chantry. I have no real thoughts on Anders action cause it was 3 am when I hit that part of the game. I will time it better this play through so I am coherent when it happens.

Bioware this is some of the best writing I've seen in a while, it's nice to play a game that has shades of gray most RPGs set their worlds up to be black and white.

#293
theradicalpunk

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I have to agree much of Ander's persona has changed and I think it is in part in fact because of Justice.

I mean Anders even says he and Justice are one. So while they may refer to each other in the second person, Anders is in fact no longer Anders. He's an abomination. Well what would a mage really be called when controlled by a spirit and not a demon?

I don't like this Anders anyways. I do hope they revert him. Because the Anders I know would never blow up a chantry let alone a chantry with people in it just because mages are being persecuted.

This is in fact an act of terrorism. No collateral damage. This new Anders intended by the Maker for the chantry to go boom, albiet in a flashy way. Which I have to say I don't like. Anders is suppouse to be a HERO not a VILLIAN.

I can see Morrigan do that.. but Anders... seriously.

#294
The Lesser Evil

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Dr_Vile wrote...
*snip*


Wow, for someone named Vile you're sure understanding AND capable of making an excellent point... This might actually alter my approach for my current (mage) playthrough.

#295
Furtled

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theradicalpunk wrote...

I have to agree much of Ander's persona has changed and I think it is in part in fact because of Justice.


Agreed -  we don't know exactly what happened between the end of Awakenings and meeting Anders in the clinic, was Karl the only person he lost to the Templars in that time? Did he have any other run ins with Templars like the one who hunts him in Awakenings? Things like that change people anyway, never mind merging with a spirit of righteousness on top of it.

Setting up the clinic and helping in the mage underground railroad is a very Anders thing to do, the bomb (and I'm kicking myself for not twigging on the saltpeter and sulphur bits) is all Vengence, but like Anders says at the end, the two of them have become one entity so he has effectively become someone else. There's also the people he's working with to consider, Anders didn't come up with that bomb by himself.

Also thinking on it - if you decide to kill Anders for what he's done you're really only killing Anders, Vengence (or would he revert back to Justice without Ander's anger?) goes back to the fade or floats off to parts unknown.

Modifié par Furtled, 15 mars 2011 - 02:38 .


#296
Dr_Vile

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Sarah1281 wrote...

That wasn't what I meant. The codex entry said that there were people with power who felt that because of Elthina's advancing age she couldn't perform her duties well enough anymore and should step down. These people who wanted her to step down could not forcibly remove her as she was too popular with the people. If her popularity was low enough by the time the third act started, maybe someone should have tried to forcibly replace her but that might have only made the chaos worse.

I don't think that Elthina neglected her duties or kept Meredith around to keep her position or look good. I think she did it because she was just not up to her duties anymore and needed to step down. Not stepping down was her failure because she could not handle being Grand Cleric when Kirkwall was at peace without relying on Meredith so she certainly couldn't handle it when all the tensions started. I disagree that she failed because she didn't step in and stop it because I don't think she could have. She still shouldn't have remained Grand Cleric if she was going to be virtually helpless, however, so that doesn't make her completely innocent.


 I'm afraid I completely mis-read your original statement, sorry. But I still have to disagree.
 Elthina quite clearly neglected her duties in regards to the Templars. She's the Grand Cleric of Kirkwall! She's supposed to be the supreme authority in all matters relating to mages and the Templars. Meredith had essentially performed a military coup, and was using her new authority to enforce even harsher measures against the mages, justifying even greater restrictions on their freedoms and even stepping up the use of the Rite of Tranquility, something that's illegal to use on mages who have passed their Harrowing.

 Meredith had gone overboard. Probably due to becoming completely Lyrium-addled, but that's not the point. Meredith was quite clearly overstepping her authority, and as the Grand Cleric, Elthina should have done something, even if that something was stepping down so that a stronger Cleric could take her place. Had she chosen to act, to replace Meredith, the other Templars would have fallen in line, as would the mages. Her inaction was what made her complicit in the crimes Meredith was committing, and it was for this reason that I can't feel too sorry for her.

 Did she deserve it? No. But she definitely had it coming.

Modifié par Dr_Vile, 15 mars 2011 - 02:09 .


#297
Furtled

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GunClubGirl wrote...

Anyone else have a serious problem with the fact that Sebastian sees fit to demand you execute your teammate (and possibly lover) rather than suggest you allow him to do it himself? Had he offered to do it himself I still would have turned him down, but it seems really selfish for him to want someone murdered and ask you to be the one to do his dirty work rather than offer to do it himself. I really thought that took some serious nerve.


Anders was my PCs LI in my playthrough and close friends with Sebastian, I figured he was only stopping himself from doing it out of respect for that. Outside of that situation though the demand does come across as odd, especially given just how devestated/angry Sebastian is at that point.

Modifié par Furtled, 15 mars 2011 - 02:05 .


#298
Dr_Vile

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The Lesser Evil wrote...

Wow, for someone named Vile you're sure understanding AND capable of making an excellent point... This might actually alter my approach for my current (mage) playthrough.

 Then my plan worked perfectly! Image IPB
 I blame the whole *wall of text* on reading history at university. You're supposed to keep talking/writing until people give up and agree with you. I could have written an entire dissertation on the subject, which would be far more enjoyable than the dissertation I'm currently FAILING to do.Image IPB Procrastination FTW!

 The whole 'Vile' thing is a long-running, convoluted and incredibly unfunny joke between a couple of friends and myself, involving the fact that 'vile' and 'vial' are homophones. Ugh, Biochemistry humour. How droll.

Modifié par Dr_Vile, 15 mars 2011 - 02:12 .


#299
Furtled

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Dr_Vile wrote...

Did she deserve it? No. But she definitely had it coming.


That's my take on it too. As you say, her inaction makes her complicit to the abuses being done in the Gallows and made some sort of extreme action inevitable.

Modifié par Furtled, 15 mars 2011 - 02:39 .


#300
Addai

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SarahRhadis wrote...
Well.. There is one system that I think the game showed works.. The Qun. While very rigid.. They appear to have little to no abominations. While their system is harsh.. The Saarebas in Act 1 proved that Qunari Mages in general would rather die, than be lost to the Qun. I believe he tells anders something like "And how much suffering has your freedom caused you?" or something along those lines.

I believe it was Orsino who said that it was cruel to give Mages the illusion of hope.

Uh... I am not sure I would call their system of managing mages functional, either.  Unless you consider a maximum security prison a functional society.  The comment of the saarebas is almost comedic in its irony.  My mage was standing there in relative health and well-being, talking to someone who'd been physically mutilated and brainwashed.