552 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

Miri1984 wrote...
See, you're wrong here. This Chantry DID have a military function. For all that Meredith was Knight Commander, its pretty clear from Origins that the Templars answer finally to the Divine. The Grand Cleric is the only clear holder of power in Kirkwall. Even Sebastian acknowledges that she's a target. It wasn't a random act of violence, it was a precision strike at the heart of Chantry authority. An act of terrorism? Absolutely. But not against a soft target. 

I would say the Chantry building occupies a middle ground.  The Chantry could be seen as a governmental institution, but normal people don't visit military installations for spiritual aid and charity, or (usually) see them as cultural symbols.  Destroying it is not just striking at templars, but at every single average Andrastian who would see such an act as desecration.

[Sylvanfeather]

I had my suspicions about the Justice quest and didn’t really think that Anders was going to be able to separate himself from the spirit. At that point I figured Anders was either going to blow something up - and that something had to be important for the mage cause - either the phylactery vault or the chantry.

What he didn’t realize was that my Hawke had her own motivations – raised by an apostate father and with a sister that was press ganged into the Circle – she was all for supporting the mages; whatever was needed. In my mind, I had Hawke behind the scenes wrapping up her affairs and getting everything in order, so that when it all hit the fan she was going to be ready to escape Kirkwall with Anders and in the end, she did - happily.

It wasn’t like Elthinia didn’t have any warning – she knew something was going to happen that was likely going to result in her death. Hawke told her to leave but it was her decision to stay and continue to be apathetic towards both the templars and mages. Hawke might have liked to been able to try convincing her one more time to leave (she really was always nice to Hawke) but it probably wouldn’t have made any difference. She had her convictions and Hawke had hers.

As an added point that I really liked with my story, was that Fenris did not once waver in his support for Hawke or voice any objection to helping the mages at the end. It felt that he was truly Hawke’s friend, despite his own feelings regarding mages. As for Sebastian? Though he was Hawke’s friend for awhile, in the end he was just the dude with Andraste’s face hanging between his legs.

Modifié par Sylvanfeather, 15 mars 2011 - 05:53 .

[Sarah1281]

As for Sebastian? Though he was Hawke’s friend for awhile, in the end he was just the dude with Andraste’s face hanging between his legs.

I think that's a little harsh. Expecting someone to go against their deeply held beliefs for you because you're friends is no different than expecting you to go against your deeply held beliefs for them. You complain that Sebastian didn't stick with you once you kept the man who murdered one of the most important people in Sebastian's life and who he swore to protect? Well, what kind of a friend are you to him in that situation where you not only let Anders get away with what he did to Sebastian's mother figure and one of the only people he has but actively support him? It goes both ways.

[Ealos]

Man, I helped him with Justice... and then just right after distracting the Grand Cleric was thinking "Saltpetre...drakestone...oh no oh no oh no Anders you IDIOT". That thread "Anders: He didn't do it but he will!!!" has just been proven right. Though I bet they wish they hadn't

[leggywillow]

Ealos wrote...

Man, I helped him with Justice... and then just right after distracting the Grand Cleric was thinking "Saltpetre...drakestone...oh no oh no oh no Anders you IDIOT". That thread "Anders: He didn't do it but he will!!!" has just been proven right. Though I bet they wish they hadn't

Depends entirely on what "it" is.  

[Sarah1281]

Though I bet they wish they hadn't

That's certainly one reaction...

[Sylvanfeather]

Sarah1281 wrote...

As for Sebastian? Though he was Hawke’s friend for awhile, in the end he was just the dude with Andraste’s face hanging between his legs.

I think that's a little harsh. Expecting someone to go against their deeply held beliefs for you because you're friends is no different than expecting you to go against your deeply held beliefs for them. You complain that Sebastian didn't stick with you once you kept the man who murdered one of the most important people in Sebastian's life and who he swore to protect? Well, what kind of a friend are you to him in that situation where you not only let Anders get away with what he did to Sebastian's mother figure and one of the only people he has but actively support him? It goes both ways.

Don't get me wrong, I didn't expect Sebastian to go against his beliefs. I respected his character and convictions, but for that versioHawke, her decision was always going to be siding with the mages and Anders.

It was definitely an interesting situation, considering how Hawke helped Sebastian to execute vengence for his family's deaths and now he wanted her to kill Anders. Wasn't she allowed to help Anders execute his own form of vengence? But as I said, in the end Sebastian and Hawke were meant to part ways.

Harsh or not - my Hawke understood Sebastian had the right to react to what happened to Elthina but she had her own cause to support and he was far, far at the end of her concerns. Becoming nothing more than some random "dude".

In a different playthrough - especially in a game where he wasn't DLC and was a bit more of fleshed out companion - I'd have no problem siding with Sebastian. That Hawke would know that really, both the Templars and Mages were messed.

If only we had never gone into the Deep Roads to begin with...

[Sylvanfeather]

(deleted due to double-post)

Modifié par Sylvanfeather, 15 mars 2011 - 06:33 .

[LumpOfCole]

I liked Merrill's take on it: "You can't kill him now, make him correct his mistake through living."

[SarahRhadis]

Addai67 wrote...

SarahRhadis wrote...
Well.. There is one system that I think the game showed works.. The Qun. While very rigid.. They appear to have little to no abominations. While their system is harsh.. The Saarebas in Act 1 proved that Qunari Mages in general would rather die, than be lost to the Qun. I believe he tells anders something like "And how much suffering has your freedom caused you?" or something along those lines.

I believe it was Orsino who said that it was cruel to give Mages the illusion of hope.

Uh... I am not sure I would call their system of managing mages functional, either.  Unless you consider a maximum security prison a functional society.  The comment of the saarebas is almost comedic in its irony.  My mage was standing there in relative health and well-being, talking to someone who'd been physically mutilated and brainwashed.

That's entirely very true. I was playing as a mage in my first playthrough as well. A Blood Mage infact.. but its like Fenris tells anders.. Hawke is strong, most mages are not. The overall picture is grim, you either have a free mage society like the Imperium where everyone is just a resource for the Magisters. Or you have the Qunari where saarebas are tightly controlled.

I'm not saying the Qunari's way is pleasant. I'm just saying that in relation to the dangers their society seems largely safe from all the insanity of demonic summoning.

Like I said I was totally into the Free Mages movement especially seeing as I was playing one. I thought they were completely in the right, but by the end of Act 3. I more or less looked back on everything and outside of Hawke there seemed to be so few mages who were strong willed enough to resist the urge to summon Demons. So yeah the events made me question everything.. like I said I was romancing anders and what he did was appalling enough that I killed him for it.

[Miri1984]

Addai67 wrote...

I would say the Chantry building occupies a middle ground.  The Chantry could be seen as a governmental institution, but normal people don't visit military installations for spiritual aid and charity, or (usually) see them as cultural symbols.  Destroying it is not just striking at templars, but at every single average Andrastian who would see such an act as desecration.

Again, absolutely, as a target it had double the impact.

[Dean_the_Young]

I'd disagree: in the context of Kirkwall (and most of Thedas), the Chantry isn't a government institution. The Civil authority, and execution, resides with the civil office of the Viscount. There is a distinct separation of church and state, even though the church has influence. The Chantry doesn't run the state: the Chantry doesn't even run the Templars here. The Templars run the Templars, which is a large part of the problem.

Moreover, there's a common conclusion I find completely baseless in these threads: the presumption that the Kirkwall Templars are controlled by the Chantry (and the grand cleric in particular). Whatever the relationship should be, in Kirkwall it's very clear, from multiple sources, that it isn't the Grand Cleric who has the most power and influence in Kirkwall: it's Meredith. The Grand Cleric isn't even second: that's the Champion.

This isn't a context of 'the Grand Cleric clearly has control over the Templars, and so she could say whatever she wanted and make it so.' No, Meridith has control of the Templars: that's why she's repeatedly established as the most powerful figure in the city, not least because of multiple instances of seizing civil authority and even removing nominally superior authorities.

If the Grand Cleric was in command and control of Meridith, she'd be the most powerful figure in the city. But she isn't. In the context of Kirkwall, the Templar tail is wagging the dog, and Meredith controls the tail.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 15 mars 2011 - 09:43 .

[Dan-mac RI]

I've been thinking. The times you are in the Chantry at night, when this showdown takes place, if I remember, it's pretty damn empty. Aside from the priests there probably wasn't that many people there when Anders blew it all up.

To Dean. At that point, it wouldn't have mattered anyway. Meredith was bat**** insane due to crazy lyrium idol/sword. Also consider that many Templars fight against Meredith once they find out what she is. If the Grand Cleric gave her a direct order and she refused, the average templar would stand against her. Hell, many templars did stand against her, with suspected blood mages no less(if you didn't kill Grace)

[Miri1984]

@Dan-mac RI You're right. And considering the people who hang out in the Chantry at night (Isabela's nasties are there, those Templars who tranquil Karl) Anders may well have reduced the criminal population of Kirkwall a bit when he blew it up. I don't know if the Chantry sisters have living quarters there though. It's obvious from Seb's comment that the Grand Cleric is.

@ Dean This is the case in KIRKWALL, but this is largely because Elthina didn't act on the authority she'd been given. The Chantry is supposed to have control over the Templars. That they didn't in this case is because the Chantry didn't TAKE that control from Meredith.

[SarahRhadis]

Miri1984 wrote...

@Dan-mac RI You're right. And considering the people who hang out in the Chantry at night (Isabela's nasties are there, those Templars who tranquil Karl) Anders may well have reduced the criminal population of Kirkwall a bit when he blew it up. I don't know if the Chantry sisters have living quarters there though. It's obvious from Seb's comment that the Grand Cleric is.

@ Dean This is the case in KIRKWALL, but this is largely because Elthina didn't act on the authority she'd been given. The Chantry is supposed to have control over the Templars. That they didn't in this case is because the Chantry didn't TAKE that control from Meredith.

I liked the Grand Cleric.. but frankly I think the reason she didnt act on her authority was because she her self was afraid of Meredith. Considering it was Meredith who removed the previous Viscount and all. I like Anders as a character don't really agree with his actions.. but I think he stated pretty clearly why he did it. He wanted there to be action, 7 or so years passed with Meredith getting progressivly crazier with her treatment of the mages. Justice probably couldn't allow things to remain as they were. Even if action meant war on a large scale.

[Dean_the_Young]

Miri1984 wrote...

@ Dean This is the case in KIRKWALL, but this is largely because Elthina didn't act on the authority she'd been given. The Chantry is supposed to have control over the Templars. That they didn't in this case is because the Chantry didn't TAKE that control from Meredith.

Or, in another perspective, because Meredith had taken enough power before they needed to, and Meredith only took that power in a crisis that she had no involvement in starting. The Templar's position in Kirkwall, which is the only relevant location for discussing what the Grand Cleric of Kirkwall could have done at varying points in the game, and why it should have. Before Act 2, why should have the Chantry kicked out a successful Knight Commander? After Act 2, how could they when she had seized far more power for the Templars?

Meredith only started going crazy after obtaining the idol, which was more or less after Act 2. Until then, and until she had grabbed the reigns of greater power, they didn't need to remover her. Not only wasn't she crazy, but the Templars weren't going mad with absuses either. Meredith was hard but sane, and the outrageous Templar absues that were there were the acts of individuals, not systemic from her office.

Until Meredith went crazy, there was no pressing need or reason for the Grand Cleric to step in. The situation wasn't out of control, nor had the Chantry necessarily lost control of its Templars. After Meredith went crazy, it was too late to exert control: not only did Meredith have the power, she was crazy enough to keep it either.

The argument over what the Grand Cleric should have done needs to focus on four equally important aspects: what she would do, when she would do it, why she would do it, and if she could do it.

[Miri1984]

@Dean:

1. She could have stepped in and advised Meredith she was being too harsh before the idol came on the scene. The Templars at the Gallows, the people in the streets of Kirkwall, nearly everyone you talk to acknowledges before she even gets the idol that she's being too harsh on the mages.
2. She could have called for the Divine to investigate in Act 2. She doesn't do this. The investigator is sent on behalf of the Divine because she's heard about what's going on and is worried about a mage rebellion and is considering an exalted march! An exalted march would have been dreadful, but it would have been action to control the situation from a central authority.
3. She could have called for the Divine to intervene in Act 3.
4. She could have fled - which would have acknowledged that the situation in Kirkwall was dire enough for the Divine to intervene.

[tallon1982]

I think the Grand Cleric knew she was going to die. It was just a matter of who'd be the one to do it. Meredith would have killed her considering the evil eye she gives the old woman when told to go back to her office like a good 'little girl.' Orsino wouldn't dare touch her from what can be seen on the surface and she tells Anders he has a troubled soul. I think something went on behind the scenes we don't know about...It's bugging me.

[cave_fatuam]

Of course, we must all remember this is told from Varric's point of view, so we're going to gain some things and miss some things without fail. I believe he does a nice job of summarizing everything up though...

"Once was a Grand Cleric,"
Spoke Varric.
"She couldn't decide.
So in the Chantry she did hide.
Angering our apostate,
Sparking his most vengeful hate.
Alas, ol' Blondie lacked aplomb.
Made himself a magic bomb.
Then, Boom! Pow! Commotion!
Over done Scottish emotion!"

[EvilEresh]

Bioware really challenged us this time with having us help start a war.

[quote]Deztyn wrote...

[quote]How is it reasonable to sit and do nothing while the flames rise around you when you are the one person who can settle things?  She did nothing with the Qunari and she watched while the Templars and mages raged at each other, refusing to get involved.  She could have quieted Mother Petrice but she didn't.  She could have stepped in between Meredith and Orsinio earlier, but she chose to "trust in the Maker."  She chose to ignore this world for the next and that's where she ended up.[/quote]

You do undertsand that the reason Anders dropped the bomb on her when he did the way he did is because he doesn't want compromise, He wants all or nothing, the mages will either be free or dead, nothing in between is acceptable to him. He says it himself. Could she have stepped in earlier? No one's denying that. But even if she had it wouldn't have been to praise or condemn either one. It would have been to mediate. Something Anders wouldn't want and IMO Orsino and Meredith wouldn't have accepted.
{/quote]

I personally find her culpable for her inaction.  She allowed the abuses of the templars to continue long past when a person in her position should have stepped in.  She had a duty to stop it and she didn't not fulfill her duty, allowing things to escalate out of hand.  

[quote]
[quote]

So...  It's ok if mages can die (both physically or emotionally) at the whim of someone else as long as no one else in the world is hurt?  I understand quite well what bringing down the existing power structure means for Thedas.  That still doesn't make the Chantry's hold over mages (or the way they treat Templars, for that matter) right.  
[/quote]

No. I'm saying that cheering for Anders starting a war that could cost more lives and cause more suffering for more people than the Chantry's ever caused to innocent mages, because you believe in the ideal he claims to be fighting for is wrong.
[/quote]

The Chantry has actively instilled a fear of mages into people.  Some mages even believe that they have an evil inside of them and are being punished by the Maker because of the Chantry.  Ages and ages of oppression and abuse are condoned by the holy because of a trait of birth.  To control these "things" that scare them, they created a drug-addicted army of brainwashed crusaders.  To me, that is the depths of depravity.  It's saddening that other people will be hurt, but things need to change.  

War is messy but some things are worth fighting for.  What line would someone have to cross before you found something acceptable?  Having watched Unthinkable recently, this is something that's been on my mind.  What are the lines you won't cross and how do you value one life over another or many others?  You can sit in a safe room in a safe country and say you would never cross some lines, but most people would be lying to themselves.  For me, what the Chantry does to the mages and to the Templars is sufficiently abusive that I do approve.  

The Templars are a very powerful and useful force for taking out abominations.  There is a real need for them, but that need doesn't have to be tied to the Chantry.  The Chantry put them in the role of jailors and that position, especially over ages when tied to a holy duty, will lead to abuses of the prisoners.  

[quote]
Anders blew up a building and started a war. That's all. It could end in the slaughter of all mages and the adoption of even harsher methods of dealing with them in the future (Drowned at birth when possible is the prefered method) Or a new magocracy that would make the old Tevinters shiver with dread. Or anything in between. For now he's not a hero, not a martyr, or even a revolutionary. He didn't free anyone. He's just a terrorist.
[/quote]

Because you don't know the end, you should never start?  There is no change without uncertainty.  

[Miss Greyjoy]

I know what he did was awful. But some people are saying that his action started the war. Didn't Sister Nightengale say that the Divine was planning to march on Kirkwall anyway? Or am I mis-remembering? I can't see the mages getting a fair shake if that had happened. Maybe someone remembers better than I do?

[Sarah1281]

The Chantry has actively instilled a fear of mages into people.

They haven't helped matters, no, but I think the common person could find it within themselves to be terrified of the power that mages wield, the demons that could possess them, and their utter helplessness before magic on their own.

[EvilEresh]

SarahRhadis wrote...

Well.. There is one system that I think the game showed works.. The Qun. While very rigid.. They appear to have little to no abominations. While their system is harsh.. The Saarebas in Act 1 proved that Qunari Mages in general would rather die, than be lost to the Qun. I believe he tells anders something like "And how much suffering has your freedom caused you?" or something along those lines.

I believe it was Orsino who said that it was cruel to give Mages the illusion of hope.

The Dalish keepers are also mages.  Merrill tells you that the clan takes it upon themselves to hunt them down if ever a keeper turns into an abomination.  She also tells you that part of why they move around so much is to make sure that the Keeper stays out of Templar hands.

[panamakira]

Now that I think about it. On my first playthrough the mage that made the most sense was Bethany, on my second playthrough it's Lady Hawke. Everybody else went ape**** and that includes Anders, Orsino and Meredith.

A pity I got to witness Anders deteriorate in such a way. I will always blame Justice. I'm sure Anders could've find a better way than to resort to his crazy at the end. I'm pretty bitter about that but I let him live and by Lady Hawke's side so he can witness the aftermath of his actions with his own eyes.

The pacifist in me refuses to believe there was no other way to work the situation. In fact, Hawke could have made the situation better by exposing Meredith. But then Orsino didn't help at all. But I still think Hawke could've made a difference.

Grrrrr.....Anders should have told me about this before so we could've worked out a more sensible plan without sacrificing innocent lives. It angers me so but we'll see what his "act of justice" will bring to the future. Most of the mages, save a few, were all using blood magic and he himself is an abomination. How is that for defending his cause? I want to help mages too but using violence and killing innocents was never the answer.

And don't pull an Andraste on me because I don't believe in anything the Chantry says either.

I fail to see the appeal of Anders wanting to build a "just" cause upon the blood of innocents. Just because Andraste did so, does not make it right. Whatever happened to not repeating mistakes of the past.

[Goldens]

For the Justice separation quest: on my first playthrough I thought Anders was going to separate Justice from himself, getting his Greg Ellis voice back, and then Justice would go off and unleash Fadey hell on the templars.

Fun but wrong. :-)