552 réponses à ce sujet

[Shinobu]

My reaction:

GODDAMMIT, ANDERS! Why couldn't you let me fix this?!
Why couldn't I fix this? How could I have let this train wreck happen?

OMG, he wanted f-ing saltpeter! And I distracted the Grand Cleric while he planted the bombs!

My boyfriend is a terrorist. And I'm an accessory. *cries*


I wasn't very emotionally invested in the game until things went horribly wrong at the Dalish camp (was that avoidable, either?) and then Anders had to do... that. I felt so shocked and betrayed and griefstricken and angry I didn't know what to do. I debated forever, slowly rolling the cursor between "Come with me" and "Die, then," but spared him in the end thanks to Merrill.

Afterward Avelline said something like: "When this is over, Anders, you'll pay for what you've done." I agreed.

Hawke and Anders deserve Aeonar.

Good job, Bioware, for delivering such an effective punch to the gut. The first half of the game was so-so, butt the payoff in the end was really affecting.

After having read what the murderknife scene looks like I'm glad I didn't choose it. I envisioned Hawke looking him in the eye and stabbing him through the heart while crying her little eyes out. A knife in the back just doesn't have the same emotional impact.

Thank the Maker for Cullen's crowning moment of awesome, or the whole endgame would have been a complete downer. Greg Ellis makes everything better. I wish he had done Anders' voice instead of Cullen's, but then no one would side with the Templars.

[Sarah1281]

I wasn't very emotionally invested in the game until things went horribly wrong at the Dalish camp (was that avoidable, either?)

Yep. Just take the blame for the Keeper's death yourself and they just let you go. Granted, you can never come back but it's quite a bit less bloody.

Hawke and Anders deserve Aeonar.

Why? For not killing Anders? I don't think Hawke deserves it for being an unknowing accomplice.

[Shinobu]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I wasn't very emotionally invested in the game until things went horribly wrong at the Dalish camp (was that avoidable, either?)

Yep. Just take the blame for the Keeper's death yourself and they just let you go. Granted, you can never come back but it's quite a bit less bloody.

Ah, yes, should have learned that from the Warden. I found this playthrough frustrating because Hawke always ended up screwing the elves somehow.

Sarah1281 wrote...

Hawke and Anders deserve Aeonar.

Why? For not killing Anders? I don't think Hawke deserves it for being an unknowing accomplice.

She knew a crime was being committed, even if she didn't know what it was until later.

[Cat Fancy]

I was super-pissed about Anders at first, not because I was that invested in his character (didn't like him that much during Awakening; liked him much less here [he was very interesting, though {brackets}]), but because I thought he represented the stupid, artificial conflict between mages/templars. But his role in the story actually felt very organic, in my opinion, and it was Orsino whom I hate for being obnoxiously plotted (so RANDOM. whaaat. you're a mess, Act 3, and no, no random letters to a serial killer in act 2 change that). I actually really like the way his arc plays out- I always refuse to perform his final request and I don't feel I'm missing anything at all by not getting one last Questioning Beliefs scene with him- most of his banter in the last act is about how he's isolating himself more and more, so I feel it's fitting.

Also, I've sort of fallen in love with his adorably pathetic/earnest midway rival talk with Hawke. "I've got pamphlets!! The Maker doesn't make junk! ARE YOU CONVINCED?" So cute. So doomed.

[Pris23]

Personally when this happened I was totally shocked...I knew he was up to something when I helped him distract the mother in the chantry. However, I thought he was stealing something or maybe destroying something,...just NOT THE WHOLE BUILDING!!!

After my initial shock I strongly considered killing him, but couldn't bring her to do it as she was romanced with him and had in part allowed herself to be used for this. By that logic I should have fallen on my own blade as well. I was happy with him (as much as anyone can be when innocents are murdered along with the bad guys). I say this because at this point the Chantry was the seat of power in this world and it was choosing to try to remain neutral. I hate inaction in leaders. The grand cleric made me so angry that she just kept giving excuses like the maker will see it through and blah blah. When looking at Ander's insane decision objectively I realized that he was trying to stop a war before it even started by :

1. Taking out the corrupt seat of power in his eyes.
2. Causing chaos in the current authority methods making room for a new one to be designed/negotiated.
3. Hoping that by doing this a true war would not have to begin.
4. He did this at the potential sacrifice of his life and even soul making it a more selfless act than it seemed at first glance.

I wanted to tell Anders that I was amazed with his conviction to his cause and that I didn't hate him for it as even as it was irrational and a rather sloppy attempt at toppling a government gone wrong.

[Tigerking]

"ANDERS YOU S.O.B! I F****** TRUSTED YOU MAN! WHAT HAPPENED?!"
I ended up siding with the mages but I killed Anders. I get the feeling that if the real Anders were still...there he's prefer to be dead than to have done what he did. I don't like terrorists, generally. AND, he lied and told me he wanted the magic stuff to burn out Justice. Instead he made a bomb and guilted me into letting him plant it. He neither trusted me or even respected me as a friend. He just wanted cover and a distraction.

Modifié par Tigerking, 18 mars 2011 - 08:37 .

[sassperella]

OK so I didn't play through with the seb dlc the first time, but did the second.

spoilers....


In his final personal quest you hear that the Divine is going to march on kirkwall and cleanse it, killing innocents too. This makes the Chantry a legitimate target in my book.


end spoiler.

[Briana Crux]

sassperella wrote...

OK so I didn't play through with the seb dlc the first time, but did the second.

spoilers....


In his final personal quest you hear that the Divine is going to march on kirkwall and cleanse it, killing innocents too. This makes the Chantry a legitimate target in my book.


end spoiler.

I had forgotten about that. Anders killed a handful of innocents. The divine was goning to march on the entirety of Kirkwall. She would have done even more damage in the end.

[catabuca]

x-posting from the 'A Wizard Did It' thread, because it sums up my feelings:

I'm actually having a tough time thinking about being able to play a character who will NOT support Anders in the future, because my own personal stance is that he did what was necessary. Yes, I'm a bad roleplayer

Of course, in doing what he did there were sacrifices -- of people's lives and of Anders' own self. I can't call what he did a selfish act because he has sacrificed himself in the process. Whether he actually lives or dies, he expects to die for his actions, but regardless he has still sacrificed himself to become something that was capable of those actions in the first place. He's sacrificed his own happiness, that of his friends and loved-ones (although that line where he says 'I was afraid you'd not want to help, or worse, I was afraid you would want to help' was wonderful -- it shows that despite his blind devotion to the cause, he still cares massively for Hawke and doesn't want to see him come to harm because of his actions). It's not a selfish act because as far as he's concerned, since he believes he'll die for what he did, he'll never see the benefits of a Thedas without mage discrimination. Everything he did stemmed from a profound belief in equality for all, not just for him.

I think his selflessness gets lost somewhat because of the innocents he killed and the way he went about it. But I do believe it was a selfless act, because of everything he has lost and will lose in the process. The figure of Justice/Vengeance naturally clouds matters. Justice is righteous, single-minded, unable to see the other side of the argument and reflect upon what could be lost in the fight. Those things aren't important to Justice. Anders' internal
conflict in reconciling his belief in equality, the rage that comes from a thirst for vengeance for those wronged over the centuries (which, I think, is fuelled massively by Karl's situation, I think that was the final straw that let Justice gain more power over Anders), and his good heart that doesn't want to see innocents harmed (he's a selfless healer, after all), is incredibly powerful. That struggle in his head and heart encapsulates the shades of grey that paint the whole game. While Meredith is set up as a completely unsympathetic character, there are still instances where complete freedom for mages doesn't look like the best course of action; it's possible to see it from a centrist, moderate point of view for both sides of the argument.

An issue I have (and have seen others have) with the friendship/rivalry system is that it forces you to sometimes take a hard line down one path or the other, and doesn't reward compromise. That, however, is a wonderful foreshadowing of the end-game. For Anders, there can be no compromise. The Grand Cleric has shown she is incapable of providing leadership and direction in the matter. Any and all attempts at compromise between Meredith and Orsino have failed (and both of them are extremes of the types of people they represent -- the only difference being that we find out about Orsino so late in the game, but of course could make more of a case that he was driven to it). Confrontations between the Templars and mages have been coming to a head for some time, and the crack down on mages in Kirkwall began long before Meredith found the idol. The situation was at breaking point, all attempts at peaceful solutions had failed, and the time for compromise had long since passed. Anders brought things to a necessary crescendo, broke the deadlock, and forced the hand of all sides. It needed to happen, and of course it was
unfortunate the way in which it happened (for the innocents in the Chantry (although my own view questions Elthina's innocence), and for Anders), but something had to give.

Anyway, all signs point to DA3 being set in or dealing with Orlais (King Al's chat about rising tensions with them; Leliana and Cassandra; and of course Sandal's going there ), but I really want to know what happens to Hawke (and in my case, Anders). After DAO I was content to imagine my Warden and his beau heading off into the sunset, and I didn't care if I ever saw him again. This is completely different though. Hawke's story isn't over ... that's what it feels like to me at least. Maybe it's because I've only completed one run so far, where he romanced Anders and they ran off together, but I really want to know how they overcame what Anders had become. I don't know how do-able any DLC or expansion would be to cover that though, since in so many games Anders is dead. Perhaps it'll never
be followed up on. That will be a real shame. In this instance, it's not something I can satisfactorily leave to fanfic.

Modifié par catabuca, 18 mars 2011 - 12:32 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

It was mass murder -- with many of the victims utterly innocent -- and tipping a stewing conflict into outright mass slaughter.

There was nothing noble or good about it.

Anders in DA2 is a loathsome piece of trash.

[catabuca]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

It was mass murder -- with many of the victims utterly innocent -- and tipping a stewing conflict into outright mass slaughter.

There was nothing noble or good about it.

Anders in DA2 is a loathsome piece of trash.

It was a moment that forced the hand of those who would perpetuate injustice for centuries given the chance -- with many more utterly innocent victims --- and tipped a stewing conflict that needed resolution into action.

There was definitely something necessary about it.

Anders in DA2 is a marvellously realised freedom fighter who I admire.

There, see. It's blooming wonderful how the game elicits so many different points of view on the same subject. The writers did their job well.

[Dunhart]

I kinda understand his motives. He knew the circle was a form of oppression on the mages long before Meredith became involved. He knew any sort of peaceful resolution would simply mean that status quo was restored. He forced the war to start because it was the only way to bring lasting change, even if it means countless deaths on both side and a chance of losing and having magic turned into a capital offence.

In the real world, people have been called heroes or martyrs for similar acts.

[sassperella]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

It was mass murder -- with many of the victims utterly innocent -- and tipping a stewing conflict into outright mass slaughter.

There was nothing noble or good about it.

Anders in DA2 is a loathsome piece of trash.

How many were actually in the Chantry?
If you had the Sebastian dlc you would see the the Divine was about to march on Kirkwall and slaughter everyone, mages and Kirkwallians alike to cleans the city. I felt bad about the Grand Cleric but having played this dlc in my opinion the Chantry as a whole is no longer innocent or a "soft" target. Their slaughter of innocents would have been far far worse.

[Killjoy Cutter]

catabuca wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

It was mass murder -- with many of the victims utterly innocent -- and tipping a stewing conflict into outright mass slaughter.

There was nothing noble or good about it.

Anders in DA2 is a loathsome piece of trash.

It was a moment that forced the hand of those who would perpetuate injustice for centuries given the chance -- with many more utterly innocent victims --- and tipped a stewing conflict that needed resolution into action.

There was definitely something necessary about it.

Anders in DA2 is a marvellously realised freedom fighter who I admire.

If he had actually attacked the Templars, you could call him a freedom fighter, engaged in a war.  But he didn't.  He blew up a bunch of nuns.  It wasn't an act of war, it was a mass murder. 

In the end, there was no difference between Anders and Meredith -- willing to slaughter the innocent in the name of "good".  

The Templars, the Circle, Anders, the Qunari, almost everyone in Kirkwall, just utterly fails to understand some important things: 

1) You can't clean with dirt -- you can't build a good world by doing evil things. 
2) The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result.
3) When you find yourself in a hole, the first step to getting out is to STOP DIGGING.

[Killjoy Cutter]

sassperella wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

It was mass murder -- with many of the victims utterly innocent -- and tipping a stewing conflict into outright mass slaughter.

There was nothing noble or good about it.

Anders in DA2 is a loathsome piece of trash.

How many were actually in the Chantry?
If you had the Sebastian dlc you would see the the Divine was about to march on Kirkwall and slaughter everyone, mages and Kirkwallians alike to cleans the city. I felt bad about the Grand Cleric but having played this dlc in my opinion the Chantry as a whole is no longer innocent or a "soft" target. Their slaughter of innocents would have been far far worse.

The Divine is considering a March on Kirkwall, according to Leliana.

[Sarah1281]

I had forgotten about that. Anders killed a handful of innocents. The divine was goning to march on the entirety of Kirkwall. She would have done even more damage in the end.

The Divine does it anyway. The Templars go and restore order in the city after you've fled, remember? At least in the mage ending.

I do have to disagree with those who say that if Hawke had some idea that Anders was going to do something illegal but not that he was going to kill a lot of people that Hawke deserves the same fate as Anders. If Hawke knew that Anders was planning to kill a lot of people then sure because they allowed it to happen. If Hawke thought that Anders was going to, I don't know, steal the Chantry's copy of the Chant of Light like the 'Orfans' want you to in Awakening then I don't see how the fact that you were fooled and Anders committed mass murder means you're just as culpable as he is.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I had forgotten about that. Anders killed a handful of innocents. The divine was goning to march on the entirety of Kirkwall. She would have done even more damage in the end.

The Divine does it anyway. The Templars go and restore order in the city after you've fled, remember? At least in the mage ending.

I do have to disagree with those who say that if Hawke had some idea that Anders was going to do something illegal but not that he was going to kill a lot of people that Hawke deserves the same fate as Anders. If Hawke knew that Anders was planning to kill a lot of people then sure because they allowed it to happen. If Hawke thought that Anders was going to, I don't know, steal the Chantry's copy of the Chant of Light like the 'Orfans' want you to in Awakening then I don't see how the fact that you were fooled and Anders committed mass murder means you're just as culpable as he is.

Hawke is not responsible for what Anders did.  Anders is. 

If Anders had said "I'm going to blow up the Chantry, kill a bunch of Sisters, and start a civil war", and Hawke had let it happen, or worse gone along, then Hawke would share in the blame.

[Sarah1281]

1) You can't clean with dirt -- you can't build a good world by doing evil things.
2) The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result.
3) When you find yourself in a hole, the first step to getting out is to STOP DIGGING.

History would disagree with you on the first and the second is kind of why Anders felt the need to blow up the Chantry in the first place. Meredith and Orsino were just going to complain to the Grand Cleric who would tell them to go away and stop fighting. Again. And for the third, Anders isn't looking to get out of his own metaphorical 'hole.' He's looking to spur the mages on to breaking out of theirs.

[AllThatJazz]

 I've just reached the point where I have to decide what to do with Anders, and I just don't know.  I can't make up my mind. I've switched the game off to mull it all over, but I'm not getting anywhere 

He's my Hawke's LI, she utterly adores him; and he's one of the most compelling characters in the game (would be a shame to lose him); but she's a good woman and the idea of letting him go/allowing him to stay in her bed when he's just bombed a church seems to go against her entire character.

At this point, I'm thinking that there's really nothing left of Anders once the bombing has happened. He's pretty much been entirely consumed by Vengeance, and it's kinder to everyone (including any vestiges of Anders that remain) to kill him. Letting an abomination go? Ulp. Handing him to the Templars? Too cruel. I remember that bit of banter he had with Merrill, when he describes being possessed as 'looking out through your own eyes but being unable to control what you're doing' or whatever the exact wording was; and if that's what's happening here, it's pretty tragic and horrid. So anyway, that's the thinking of Hawke's Head.

Hawke's Heart says 'Noooooo! OMG Anders, I Luuuuuurve you, even though you're a selfish, lying, crazy, terrorist bastard who is determined to be a martyr! Don't die, please stay ..... I'm sure I'll get over the fact that you've murdered a bunch of (relatively) innocent people!'

Metagaming me says 'Dammit!  He's the only mage with really good healing, half the time he's the only one left at the end of a fight! How the hell am I supposed to beat the Endgame without him?!'

Help would be much appreciated x

Modifié par AllThatJazz, 18 mars 2011 - 02:48 .

[Sarah1281]

Metagaming me says 'Dammit! He's the only mage with really good healing, half the time he's the only one left at the end of a fight! How the hell am I supposed to beat the Endgame without him?!'

If you're not a mage yourself and Bethany is alive, she'll be back in your party soon which was definitely a saving grace for me after I killed Anders.

[catabuca]

Sarah1281 wrote...

1) You can't clean with dirt -- you can't build a good world by doing evil things.
2) The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result.
3) When you find yourself in a hole, the first step to getting out is to STOP DIGGING.

History would disagree with you on the first and the second is kind of why Anders felt the need to blow up the Chantry in the first place. Meredith and Orsino were just going to complain to the Grand Cleric who would tell them to go away and stop fighting. Again. And for the third, Anders isn't looking to get out of his own metaphorical 'hole.' He's looking to spur the mages on to breaking out of theirs.

Excellent points, Sarah.

[catabuca]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...


If he had actually attacked the Templars, you could call him a freedom fighter, engaged in a war.  But he didn't.  He blew up a bunch of nuns.  It wasn't an act of war, it was a mass murder. 

In the end, there was no difference between Anders and Meredith -- willing to slaughter the innocent in the name of "good".  

The Templars, the Circle, Anders, the Qunari, almost everyone in Kirkwall, just utterly fails to understand some important things: 

1) You can't clean with dirt -- you can't build a good world by doing evil things. 
2) The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result.
3) When you find yourself in a hole, the first step to getting out is to STOP DIGGING.

If you read my wall-of-text post above you'll see how I believe bombing the Chantry as opposed to a a templar barracks or whatever was justified.

The Chantry was supposed to be a mediating force, but it utterly, utterly failed. To continue to turn to an institution that was complicit in the support and authority of the Templars despite their abuses, and which refused to attempt to break the deadlock that would have quite easily meant hundreds or thousands of people being killed over future centuries if the status quo prevailed, meant they were the natural target. Take away that one thing that keeps the situation from ever moving forward. You have to break a few eggs to make a cake. And if they are nun-shaped eggs, so be it.

I completely stand behind Anders. The only tragedy I see about his actions is that he has been consumed by Justice in the process (that and the fact the Chantry put in place and upheld a situation that made them necessary in the first place).

[AllThatJazz]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Metagaming me says 'Dammit! He's the only mage with really good healing, half the time he's the only one left at the end of a fight! How the hell am I supposed to beat the Endgame without him?!'

If you're not a mage yourself and Bethany is alive, she'll be back in your party soon which was definitely a saving grace for me after I killed Anders.

That is a handy thing to know. Thankyou muchly.

[Killjoy Cutter]

catabuca wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...


If he had actually attacked the Templars, you could call him a freedom fighter, engaged in a war.  But he didn't.  He blew up a bunch of nuns.  It wasn't an act of war, it was a mass murder. 

In the end, there was no difference between Anders and Meredith -- willing to slaughter the innocent in the name of "good".  

The Templars, the Circle, Anders, the Qunari, almost everyone in Kirkwall, just utterly fails to understand some important things: 

1) You can't clean with dirt -- you can't build a good world by doing evil things. 
2) The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result.
3) When you find yourself in a hole, the first step to getting out is to STOP DIGGING.

If you read my wall-of-text post above you'll see how I believe bombing the Chantry as opposed to a a templar barracks or whatever was justified.

The Chantry was supposed to be a mediating force, but it utterly, utterly failed. To continue to turn to an institution that was complicit in the support and authority of the Templars despite their abuses, and which refused to attempt to break the deadlock that would have quite easily meant hundreds or thousands of people being killed over future centuries if the status quo prevailed, meant they were the natural target. Take away that one thing that keeps the situation from ever moving forward. You have to break a few eggs to make a cake. And if they are nun-shaped eggs, so be it.

I completely stand behind Anders. The only tragedy I see about his actions is that he has been consumed by Justice in the process (that and the fact the Chantry put in place and upheld a situation that made them necessary in the first place).

Yes, I saw where you think it was justified. 

I'm sure certain people have felt that blowing up buildings full of innocent people was fully justified as an attack on some institution they didn't approve of.   I can think of a few examples, in fact.  

Whatever.

[drvaughn1999]

Sarah1281 wrote...

1) You can't clean with dirt -- you can't build a good world by doing evil things.
2) The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result.
3) When you find yourself in a hole, the first step to getting out is to STOP DIGGING.

History would disagree with you on the first and the second is kind of why Anders felt the need to blow up the Chantry in the first place. Meredith and Orsino were just going to complain to the Grand Cleric who would tell them to go away and stop fighting. Again. And for the third, Anders isn't looking to get out of his own metaphorical 'hole.' He's looking to spur the mages on to breaking out of theirs.

With this logic, I guess that is why terrorist blow up innocent people, to get more terrorist to do the same.