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Andrastes flaming pants, Anders! (Spoilers)


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#426
GailRana

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mhendon wrote...

I had a bad feeling during his companion quest. He actually says someone is going to die. So when he came out I got this monstrous sinking feeling. The thing blew up and I just felt horrible! I seriously contemplated killing him even though I was romancing him. In the end, I let him go and told him to leave for good at the ending battle. I hate what he did but I feel like it wasn't really him, nor was it justice...it was vengeance. :(


I had a bad feeling too, but i thought he was going to sacrifice himself to free Justice (my charactor didn't press him at all when he asked her for help with the Chantry thing), so the twist hit me as a complete surprise.

#427
teeru

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That was my reaction.

Modifié par teeru, 19 mars 2011 - 01:52 .


#428
Dunhart

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I accidentally spoiled it for myself while looking for clarification on a past event. That pissed me off way more than what he did.

I should ban myself from wikis and Bioware forums whenever I'm playing a new release.

#429
GailRana

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Dunhart wrote...

I accidentally spoiled it for myself while looking for clarification on a past event. That pissed me off way more than what he did.

I should ban myself from wikis and Bioware forums whenever I'm playing a new release.


I avoided the internet like the plauge untill i was done with my first playthrough! Even Facebook could not be trusted :ph34r:

#430
Addai

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sassperella wrote...

So why no outrage against Zevran who admits in DA:O that he sometimes kills innocents if they're caught in crossfire of his assassinations and blatently says he enjoys killing people? why no outrage at conner who's in the same boat as Anders?

Because we've been manipulated to feel more outrage in this game, not just because innocents were a casualty but because Bioware used terrorism that is such a huge issue in our real world. By making Anders take arguably terrorist action in the game they played on emotions that have been at the forefront of our news for the last few years, especially since 9/11.

oh and did no one else even consider that Isabella is responsible for many more innocent deaths because of her relic. How many of the city did the Qunari kill all as a direct result of her actions? Ah yes there was no terrorism in that so it's forgivable...

Very patronizing, oh purple haired one.

I said upthread that Isabela also is culpable and also lied and used Hawke.  However, I don't think you have to be a flag-waving 9/11 fanatic to be appalled at a massive explosion set off by your supposed friend/lover in the middle of a city, with the admitted goal of touchng off a war.  Did Isabela wake up and say to herself "today I'm going to ignite the powder keg of Qunari- Free Marcher tensions"?  Did Zevran light a poop bomb that single-handedly took out downtown Antiva City?

Modifié par Addai67, 19 mars 2011 - 02:26 .


#431
Nassegris

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I was purposefully NOT reading the forums throughout most of the storyline because I didn’t want to get accidentally spoiled.

 

So I had really no clue. I mean, I had a nagging suspicion he was up to no good, because he was getting all ‘you have been a good friend to me (puppy eyes)’, but I didn’t know it was that MASSIVELY no good that he was up to. I kept slowing down my playing hours and not wanting to get to the 3rd chapter because I knew it’d be bad.

 

When it happened I all but shrieked, kicked back my chair and abandoned the computer for a full half hour before I was able to continue.

 

I think,

 

Oh… no…. no… no… no no no noooo… no… (numb stare)… no… noo… no…

 

might best describe how I was feeling at the time. All my diplomatic attempts shot to hell in one fell swoop. All my peaceful dreams, come to naught, and by my friend as well. I think if he'd just talked to Hawke, some better plan could have been deviced. My Hawke would not have been completely opposed to some big, epic gesture, but to blow up one of the few people who were actually kind, and good, instead of aiming the gun at the real culprits? Shame.

 

I hated him but I loved the storytelling at that point, but anxiety made me unable to play for a whole day because I couldn’t decide what to do with him.

#432
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alveus wrote...

Ugh, Anders. He totally makes you help him, too. Remember when he asks you to gather "obscure ingredients" for him? One is drakestone, and I wasn't sure what that was at first, but the second (forgot the name) was described as some sort of crystal that you find in decomposing manure. and that made me wonder what Anders wanted with saltpeter, and THAT made me wonder if drakestone was maybe sulfur...
And then he wants you to help him get into the chantry for unknown reasons. GOSH THAT ISN'T SUSPICIOUS AT ALL.
My question is, how did Anders get the recipe for black powder at all, since the qunari are supposed to guard it so zealously?


Actually after he said that I wouldnt help him.I never got the ingredients for him.Never had him in my party again.When he killed the Grand Cleric I was so ticked.I would of handed him over to the people of Kirkwall if the option was there.I had to settle for just using a knife.On my run throughs now I just use him for tranquil quest since I have to.

I not sure how he got the recipe but didnt he said he got it from a friend?I wonder if Justice had a hand in it?

#433
Ryzaki

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Well wrote...

alveus wrote...

Ugh, Anders. He totally makes you help him, too. Remember when he asks you to gather "obscure ingredients" for him? One is drakestone, and I wasn't sure what that was at first, but the second (forgot the name) was described as some sort of crystal that you find in decomposing manure. and that made me wonder what Anders wanted with saltpeter, and THAT made me wonder if drakestone was maybe sulfur...
And then he wants you to help him get into the chantry for unknown reasons. GOSH THAT ISN'T SUSPICIOUS AT ALL.
My question is, how did Anders get the recipe for black powder at all, since the qunari are supposed to guard it so zealously?


Actually after he said that I wouldnt help him.I never got the ingredients for him.Never had him in my party again.When he killed the Grand Cleric I was so ticked.I would of handed him over to the people of Kirkwall if the option was there.I had to settle for just using a knife.On my run throughs now I just use him for tranquil quest since I have to.

I not sure how he got the recipe but didnt he said he got it from a friend?I wonder if Justice had a hand in it?


Justice had far more than just a hand.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 mars 2011 - 02:42 .


#434
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Ryzaki wrote...

Well wrote...

alveus wrote...

Ugh, Anders. He totally makes you help him, too. Remember when he asks you to gather "obscure ingredients" for him? One is drakestone, and I wasn't sure what that was at first, but the second (forgot the name) was described as some sort of crystal that you find in decomposing manure. and that made me wonder what Anders wanted with saltpeter, and THAT made me wonder if drakestone was maybe sulfur...
And then he wants you to help him get into the chantry for unknown reasons. GOSH THAT ISN'T SUSPICIOUS AT ALL.
My question is, how did Anders get the recipe for black powder at all, since the qunari are supposed to guard it so zealously?


Actually after he said that I wouldnt help him.I never got the ingredients for him.Never had him in my party again.When he killed the Grand Cleric I was so ticked.I would of handed him over to the people of Kirkwall if the option was there.I had to settle for just using a knife.On my run throughs now I just use him for tranquil quest since I have to.

I not sure how he got the recipe but didnt he said he got it from a friend?I wonder if Justice had a hand in it?


Justice had far more than just a hand.



I meant as far as the recipe.

#435
Ryzaki

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Well wrote...


I meant as far as the recipe.


Fairly certain Anders would've learned that from snooping around. 

Justice may have gotten the idea. But I'm not sure Fade spirits would know too much about bombs and the like. 

#436
Well

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I thought he got it from a friend.I could be wrong.As soon as he mentioned those ingredients I kicked him to the curb.Didn't change anything.Oh well.

#437
Narreneth

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Killjoy Cutter wrote...
2) The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result.


I really wish people would quit saying this.  It's an Einstein quote and in no way shape or form illustrates what "insanity" is.  Insanity isn't even a proper psycological term, it came into existense solely as a legal defense word.   I know that this is incredibly off-topic but I really have a hard time getting past this part of your argument because what you're saying ultimately doesn't make any sense.

#438
Briana Crux

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Addai67 wrote...

sassperella wrote...

So why no outrage against Zevran who admits in DA:O that he sometimes kills innocents if they're caught in crossfire of his assassinations and blatently says he enjoys killing people? why no outrage at conner who's in the same boat as Anders?

Because we've been manipulated to feel more outrage in this game, not just because innocents were a casualty but because Bioware used terrorism that is such a huge issue in our real world. By making Anders take arguably terrorist action in the game they played on emotions that have been at the forefront of our news for the last few years, especially since 9/11.

oh and did no one else even consider that Isabella is responsible for many more innocent deaths because of her relic. How many of the city did the Qunari kill all as a direct result of her actions? Ah yes there was no terrorism in that so it's forgivable...


Very patronizing, oh purple haired one.

I said upthread that Isabela also is culpable and also lied and used Hawke.  However, I don't think you have to be a flag-waving 9/11 fanatic to be appalled at a massive explosion set off by your supposed friend/lover in the middle of a city, with the admitted goal of touchng off a war.  Did Isabela wake up and say to herself "today I'm going to ignite the powder keg of Qunari- Free Marcher tensions"?  Did Zevran light a poop bomb that single-handedly took out downtown Antiva City?


Wait wait wait wait wait a moment! I had almost forgotten about Conner.
He was an abomination and we were able to save him by entering the fade
and killing the demon within him. Why cant we do that with anders? Why
cant we do that with any abomination? what made Connor so special?

Modifié par Briana Crux, 19 mars 2011 - 04:53 .


#439
cglasgow

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Miri1984 wrote...

@ Addai it wasn't JUST a civilian target, is what I was trying to say. Yes it killed innocents, and that was part of the point, he needed to provoke outrage, but it was also the seat of Chantry authority.

If we fought wars today using this kind of logic, Mecca would be a glowing radioactive crater.

And it's not.  Why?  Because we don't.  Why?  Because its wrong.

Even if your enemy goes to church a lot, when you fight a war vs. the enemy, you blow up his military bases... not his churches.   'Total war' theory, where anything that supports your enemy in any way is a valid target, is a concept the modern world tries to leave behind in history's dustbin for a reason.

Modifié par cglasgow, 19 mars 2011 - 05:06 .


#440
Sarah1281

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If we fought wars today using this kind of logic, Mecca would be a glowing radioactive crater.

And DA is hardly set in modern times.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 19 mars 2011 - 05:07 .


#441
cglasgow

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Sarah1281 wrote...

And DA is hardly fought in modern times.

So?  Nobody's saying it was OOC for Anders to do; we are discussing the morality of his actions, not the plausibility.   Sure, as a character in a particularly bleak medieval setting, his mind could turn naturally to such methods; and as people living in the 21st century of the real world, some players consider it well-deserved when Anders gets murder-knifed in the head.

Modifié par cglasgow, 19 mars 2011 - 05:09 .


#442
Bearness

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Hmmm i tried to reply at cglasgow except i dont really know how to do that on my ipod crap thing wont obey my orders but oke thats a story for another time.

Althoug it is true that Anders act did look a bit teroristish. It grabs you more than that of isabela. Certainly because of the choice. In the sense of Anders did it with having in mind what the it would spark a war. While isabela thought only of the money and not so much had the intention of killing innocent people but ok thats my opinion.

The otger part about mekka i do disagree i mean in war churces ar offenly burned it is a place of sanctuary where people can hide or seek refuge a safe place not something you want your enemy to have. It can also give people strenght through faith meaning destroying an artifact or building of such value will bring down moral meaning people will lose hope so it was quit the strategic point Anders made if you ask me. And even in modern times these kind of stuff happen only with less eviler intent like sparking a war.

Muhahaha that was my opinion :P hope nobody got offended by it.

#443
Sjofn

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Briana Crux wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

sassperella wrote...

So why no outrage against Zevran who admits in DA:O that he sometimes kills innocents if they're caught in crossfire of his assassinations and blatently says he enjoys killing people? why no outrage at conner who's in the same boat as Anders?

Because we've been manipulated to feel more outrage in this game, not just because innocents were a casualty but because Bioware used terrorism that is such a huge issue in our real world. By making Anders take arguably terrorist action in the game they played on emotions that have been at the forefront of our news for the last few years, especially since 9/11.

oh and did no one else even consider that Isabella is responsible for many more innocent deaths because of her relic. How many of the city did the Qunari kill all as a direct result of her actions? Ah yes there was no terrorism in that so it's forgivable...


Very patronizing, oh purple haired one.

I said upthread that Isabela also is culpable and also lied and used Hawke.  However, I don't think you have to be a flag-waving 9/11 fanatic to be appalled at a massive explosion set off by your supposed friend/lover in the middle of a city, with the admitted goal of touchng off a war.  Did Isabela wake up and say to herself "today I'm going to ignite the powder keg of Qunari- Free Marcher tensions"?  Did Zevran light a poop bomb that single-handedly took out downtown Antiva City?


Wait wait wait wait wait a moment! I had almost forgotten about Conner.
He was an abomination and we were able to save him by entering the fade
and killing the demon within him. Why cant we do that with anders? Why
cant we do that with any abomination? what made Connor so special?


The Keeper during the Night Terrors quest mentions that even when you do a Connor on an abomination, that person is damaged forever (which makes Arl Eamon mentioning Connor is acting weird in the post-game show in DA:O more depressing). I assume it's difficult to really do, and the person winds up so screwed up anyway, that it's generally just not worth doing. Probably once they go ugly, it's too hard to restrain them from hurting people long enough to do it, too. It's not very clear to me how long it actually takes, plus for all you know you're just sending more fodder for demons to tempt and take over.

Modifié par Sjofn, 19 mars 2011 - 06:06 .


#444
cglasgow

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Abness wrote...

Hmmm i tried to reply at cglasgow except i dont really know how to do that on my ipod crap thing wont obey my orders but oke thats a story for another time.

Althoug it is true that Anders act did look a bit teroristish. It grabs you more than that of isabela. Certainly because of the choice. In the sense of Anders did it with having in mind what the it would spark a war. While isabela thought only of the money and not so much had the intention of killing innocent people but ok thats my opinion.

Isabella also gets off with less moral culpability because the Arishok was a complete and total dick throughout the whole process.   He never dealt in good faith with anyone around him.

Hell, if he hadn't lied to the viscount from day one about why he was really there, he'd probably have gotten his book back within a year.  How long could Isabela have stayed hidden if the local authorities and the Coterie had both been given a description of the book and a description of the thief who took it?   How long could the schlub who was hiding out with the book in his closet have lasted with the entire city searching for him?

Nobody rational expects stealing a book to lead to an invasion and a war.   This is because society has rules for what you do to recover your stolen property, even the really really precious and unique stolen property.   And those rules don't include 'Conquer an entire friggin' city'.

The other part about mekka i do disagree i mean in war churces ar offenly burned it is a place of sanctuary where people can hide or seek refuge a safe place not something you want your enemy to have.

There's rules for that as well; churches only become valid targets if enemy combatants are using them as military bases, or to store weapons and ammo in.   Hell, from everything I know about the current War on Terror, about the only way you can get permission to even shoot near, much less at, a mosque is if there's a machine gun sticking out the mosque window and actively in the process of throwing lead at you.

Since the templar barracks and armory are nowhere near the Chantry cathedral in Hightown; they're all the way over in the Gallows; then Anders' bomb should have gone to the Gallows.  Although since the mages live next door he'd have needed a smaller bomb, yes.

It can also give people strenght through faith meaning destroying an artifact or building of such value will bring down moral meaning people will lose hope so it was quit the strategic point Anders made if you ask me.

You are never going to get me to agree that things that blatantly at against the Geneva Conventions are morally justified; I'll just tell you that right now.

And even in modern times these kind of stuff happen [snip]

We can all the name the names of some people who still do that kind of stuff in the modern world; its just, those people are generally not considered to be proper moral examples.

Modifié par cglasgow, 19 mars 2011 - 06:14 .


#445
Apollo Starflare

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I had no idea it was coming, my reaction was something along the lines of: "You have got to be kidding me." Closely followed by "GODDAMNIT, ANDERS!".

Considering my Hawke's opinion of blood magic and other Bad Stuff he was never going to buddy up with Anders again after that, although I did offer for him to help me undo the chaos he had created. It all came down to protecting Kirkwall really.

The thing that really made it worse than some of the other stuff companions had done, was that I instantly thought he had torn the veil utterly (I mean, look at the sky), and that would have been a whole new level of not good.

Oh and the Connor thing is also tricky to do because it involved a bunch of Mages and a pile of Lirium, or blood magic. I wouldn't be surprised if it was possible, but I doubt it's used much and Anders didn't seem eager to let Hawke know of any real ways of getting rid of Justice.

#446
Bearness

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Hahaha cglassgow im really trying to press the d*mn reply button but it's not working sorry. I hop that i did not offend you in anyway.

But ok about the arishok i dont know i was wrong if he lied its true. But i thought that somethings the qun displayed were ratyer refinde in the sense of purpose and disipline. It did not give room foor freedom that is true but i did not find it disturbing. I also founf it funny when fenrir said that they dont waist anything they would reform you or use you as a slave.

What i meant with the other things was acctually meant for reallife instead of DA sorry for the confusuion but im from ex-yougoslavia and i still hear my motyer talk about how mosques were burned to the ground just so that there would be no moslims near it or so that people could not turn there for help or prayers. And of course there are rules bur not everyone seems to think the are bound to them guess that how everything starts. :P but then agaibt this is just lil old me's opinion haha

#447
cglasgow

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Abness wrote...

But ok about the arishok i dont know i was wrong if he lied its true. But i thought that somethings the qun displayed were rather refined in the sense of purpose and discipline.

So were the Borg collective, the Zerg, and those certain guys in German history who we can't mention by name because its instant thread derailment.  Didn't stop them from being hateful, dangerous, and so needing to die.

Sure, the qunari are an intensely interesting alien culture to watch and learn about, but that isn't even related to the question of whether or not they're a bunch of lying, imperialistic, murdering dicks.  Sometimes the villain is the most interesting guy in the story; doesn't mean he's not the villain.

Really, the Arishok is the same guy who runs a sting operation by letting thieves steal the formula for nerve gas instead of gunpowder, and then just does a big shrug when a neighborhood gets gassed to death.  'Eh, my enemies would have killed innocent people anyway, without or without me; that totally lets me off the hook for helping them do it!'   My reaction: No.  No, big guy, it doesn't excuse you at all.   Sister Petrice and her fanatics are bad guys, but that doesn't mean you're not a bad guy too.   I mean, hey, its Dragon Age.  'Both sides are kinda ****s' is how this place rolls.

What i meant with the other things was acctually meant for reallife instead of DA sorry for the confusuion but im from ex-yougoslavia and i still hear my motyer talk about how mosques were burned to the ground just so that there would be no moslims near it or so that people could not turn there for help or prayers.

... let's just say that nobody should be using the Bosnian/Serbian conflict of recent memory as an example of proper behavior and leave it at that, okay?

Modifié par cglasgow, 19 mars 2011 - 06:45 .


#448
Bearness

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Haha the arishok was a d*ck indeed but let's be honest he does look kick ass. But what i meant is even with the people who should not be mentioned (Voldermort) haha no but it can help a society or break it in tye sense of if the dude did not go paranoid on everybody a system with disipline and perpouse stand beter than that of freedom drenqed in chaos. Altouth there metodes are are extreme they cannot be sweet talked i mean to get this disiple you will have to lose freedom. And is that a price you are willing to pay? But indeed the qunari would have killed you a 1000 times if it were up to them. It is so that dictatorship can be good in the right hand and no i dont meen cadafi or sadam i men like tito from yougoslavie he was announced most modern dictator of the 20th century with al that power you can help alot of people but it is easy to easyly get corupted like our dragon age mages :P

But damn we're kinda grimm talking about this kind of stuff dont you think haha. And no matter what war humans always seem to show some bad sides during war haha. So lets talk about hPpy stuf hows the weather? :P

#449
LoneWolf4191

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Abness wrote...

Haha the arishok was a d*ck indeed but let's be honest he does look kick ass. But what i meant is even with the people who should not be mentioned (Voldermort) haha no but it can help a society or break it in tye sense of if the dude did not go paranoid on everybody a system with disipline and perpouse stand beter than that of freedom drenqed in chaos. Altouth there metodes are are extreme they cannot be sweet talked i mean to get this disiple you will have to lose freedom. And is that a price you are willing to pay? But indeed the qunari would have killed you a 1000 times if it were up to them. It is so that dictatorship can be good in the right hand and no i dont meen cadafi or sadam i men like tito from yougoslavie he was announced most modern dictator of the 20th century with al that power you can help alot of people but it is easy to easyly get corupted like our dragon age mages :P

But damn we're kinda grimm talking about this kind of stuff dont you think haha. And no matter what war humans always seem to show some bad sides during war haha. So lets talk about hPpy stuf hows the weather? :P


Well if you look at our history, we had fudes over Religion, religion was a way of survival. The basis of war back then was land, money and religion. People came to the Americas and converted Natives as a means of control, which is also what the Qun was trying to do. Thedas has many religions, the Dalish are like Native Americans, the Chantry is like Christianity. Europeans went to the Americas because the Ottoman Empire (islamic traditions) was becoming powerful, so they sought wealth and land to gain power.

#450
kingsims

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he just as bad as loghain deserved to die by Alistair. Betrayal is unacceptable especially when innocent people die who have nothing to do with the political conflict. He is dead in my play through but justice is alive and well in the fade.