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Andrastes flaming pants, Anders! (Spoilers)


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#476
Eleinehmm

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cglasgow wrote...

Eleinehmm wrote...

The question is WHY are they shooting at you, pal. It's not LOTR or Aliens movie. They  shot at you because you shot at them

Yes, history has no examples of unprovoked aggression, ever.  /sarcasm


Wait, you are  talking about others people as if they were of one mind. Do you think that all the people have the same mind by a single virture of opposing you or your chosen group ?. They were ordered to do so,  they were told some valid ( or they think that they are valid) reasons to attack you.

Joe was conscripted, or Joe was told that you want to kill his family. Who would you prefer to kill - Joe or the guy who lied to him about you motives ?

Just war? Sounds like dubious Augustinian Theology - The only Just war is when all the participants had equal responsible for action that lead to the war. The only people that generally responsible are in the government.
Your average Joe doesn’t give a **** about your country, ideas of right or politics. He just sort of wants to live.


But, hey if you want to think that you are protecting someone by killing other mostly unrelated  to your problem  people feel free to do so. 
Oh, wait, I think that the guy we were talking about was doing the same. He killed people from the Templar- supporting institution because he felt it will help him to free his people. :whistle:

Modifié par Eleinehmm, 19 mars 2011 - 10:13 .


#477
Addai

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Briana Crux wrote...
Wait wait wait wait wait a moment! I had almost forgotten about Conner.
He was an abomination and we were able to save him by entering the fade
and killing the demon within him. Why cant we do that with anders? Why
cant we do that with any abomination? what made Connor so special?

Before playing the game I was hoping we could do something like that, but I don't think Anders wants that.  He wouldn't want Justice to die.  I mean, technically we ought to have been able to kill Justice when you go into the Fade during the Night Terrors quest.  I guess he had plot armor.

#478
Sarah1281

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Another important difference is that the demon in Connor could be persuaded (or threatened) to voluntarily leave Connor. Justice doesn't really seem like he has that option.

#479
cglasgow

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Eleinehmm wrote...

Joe was conscripted, or Joe was told that you want to kill his family. Who would you prefer to kill - Joe or the guy who lied to him about you motives ?

Who's the only one of the two I can reach?  And who's going to kill me if I just stand there and try to shake hands?

Sure, if I was Superman and could just fly to the enemy capital, drag the dictator out of his palace, and throw him into the sun, it would be morally preferable to do that instead of just heat-visioning one of his poor conscripts.

Unfortunately, I'm not Superman, the bastard the other guy works for is well beyond my reach, if enemy bullets enter my body they will make very painful holes and I will die, and if the enemy soldier is in rifle range... then so am I.

And what relevance does this have to the topic of whether or not its morally acceptable behavior to tacnuke a cathedral?   Especially when you're the one deciding to start the war?

Modifié par cglasgow, 19 mars 2011 - 10:17 .


#480
Eleinehmm

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cglasgow wrote...

And what relevance does this have to the topic of whether or not its morally acceptable behavior to tacnuke a cathedral?   Especially when you're the one deciding to start the war?


Umm, I just don't see how a person can think it is unacceptable and (at the same time) think that War is ok, war is not murder and there is such thing as a Just war, good cause for mass-killing people and all of that.
We are clearly aren't going to agree on this, so I suppose we are finished here.

Modifié par Eleinehmm, 19 mars 2011 - 10:24 .


#481
SpectreVerner

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highcastle wrote...

Jaws_Victim wrote...

I hope we have some kind of quest later to remove Anders from the spirit of Vengeance. It has warped and twisted him, and mellowed him out way too much.


Me too! That's the principle reason my mage Hawke stuck with him. He loves Anders, couldn't bring himself to kill him, knows Vengeance is responsible, and now wants an exorcism. Here's to hoping for some kind of Witch Hunt style DLC (with more actual closure this time around, please).

He basically tells you that he is Justice now. He wasn't twsited by the spirit, he was the one who twisted it himslef. This was all his doing.

#482
Eleinehmm

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SpectreVerner wrote...

highcastle wrote...

Jaws_Victim wrote...

I hope we have some kind of quest later to remove Anders from the spirit of Vengeance. It has warped and twisted him, and mellowed him out way too much.


Me too! That's the principle reason my mage Hawke stuck with him. He loves Anders, couldn't bring himself to kill him, knows Vengeance is responsible, and now wants an exorcism. Here's to hoping for some kind of Witch Hunt style DLC (with more actual closure this time around, please).

He basically tells you that he is Justice now. He wasn't twsited by the spirit, he was the one who twisted it himslef. This was all his doing.


Personally I don't get the authors intent. I saw both rivalry and friendship paths, On friendship path It seemed that it was his own decision, on rivalry it seemed… weird… Would like some clarification on that. :whistle:

Modifié par Eleinehmm, 19 mars 2011 - 10:26 .


#483
cglasgow

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Eleinehmm wrote...

Umm, I just don't see how a person can think it is unacceptable and (at the same time) think that War is ok, war is not murder and there is such thing as a Just war, good cause for mass-killing people and all of that.


http://www.icrc.org/...tions/index.jsp

#484
Sarah1281

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I think that Justice was for it no matter what. On the friendship path, Anders had no reason to start questioning himself and so was also for it. They agreed. On the rivalry path, Anders is clearly wavering but he's finding he doesn't have much choice in the matter as Justice wants it done.

#485
Eshaye

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A war just? No. Never. Necessary in someone's mind maybe, just? Never. It's always unjust for someone.

#486
wetnasty

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Aha, im late and have shared this in like a thousand communities, but I guess I'll write up another one. :D

I totally had the "GODDAMNIT ANDERS!" moment, but then also I was like "ugh damnit, I've been trying the whole game to convince people you WEREN'T crazy and now you do this????" But then he puppy dog eyed me and I just had to let him live and run away with him. I can't help but think of what my crazy decisions based on my infatuations will get me into once ME3 and the sequel to this storyline comes out.

#487
Killjoy Cutter

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Eshaye wrote...

A war just? No. Never. Necessary in someone's mind maybe, just? Never. It's always unjust for someone.


Not all things are equivalent.  Not all positions are equally valid.  And sometimes war is the least bad option.

What Anders did is the equivalent of the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand, if it had been done with a truck bomb instead of a pistol.  It's going to start a long, bloody, pointless war that helps no one.

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 20 mars 2011 - 01:03 .


#488
Kattack

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SpectreVerner wrote...

highcastle wrote...

Jaws_Victim wrote...

I hope we have some kind of quest later to remove Anders from the spirit of Vengeance. It has warped and twisted him, and mellowed him out way too much.


Me too! That's the principle reason my mage Hawke stuck with him. He loves Anders, couldn't bring himself to kill him, knows Vengeance is responsible, and now wants an exorcism. Here's to hoping for some kind of Witch Hunt style DLC (with more actual closure this time around, please).

He basically tells you that he is Justice now. He wasn't twsited by the spirit, he was the one who twisted it himslef. This was all his doing.


I honestly don't think it was all his doing. I read Anders' codex for the third part of the game recently and it makes it sound, cannon, that Justice has somehow gotten more control of Anders' body. Added to one of the rivalry scenes from near the end of the game... I think Anders is just taking the blame because he feels like it's his fault. Even though it's not.
Either that or he's become schitzophrenic because of Justice.

#489
Sarah1281

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It's going to start a long, bloody, pointless war that helps no one.

Even if it won't help in the end (which I doubt) then it still wasn't pointless. Anders' goal was clear from the onset.

#490
cglasgow

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'Pointless' in the sense of 'had no rational hope of ever achieving its desired outcome', not 'pointless' in the sense of 'had no intended outcome; was just random'.

#491
Deztyn

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Sarah1281 wrote...

    I think the abuses of the Templars are greatly exagerated. The only verified abusers were dealt with by Hawke. Bethany, a woman who spent most of her life free, didn't think the circle was the total hell some people paint it as, and good Templars are better represented in the game than good mages.

Bethany also says that she feels that she wouldn't be able to fully understand what life was like for mages without having to endure the circle herself at the end of the game. I think it's pretty clear she didn't enjoy her time there.


Oh I'm not arguing that things were sunshine and rainbows. I think Kirkwalls circle is the worst around. Just that the situation is hardly as simple as Templars = Total Evil, Mages = Pure Innocent and how dare Elthina not run Meredith out of town and liberate the Circle--She totally deserves to die! Which is what many who support Anders seem to be saying. I haven't seen one argument approving her death that suggests a course of action she could have taken and still acknowledges the problems existing on both sides.

And what are the odds that Hawke personally observed and dealt with all or even a significant portion of the abuses that went on in Kirkwall? I know that every other mage you met was a blood mage or abomination but everyone acts like this is a very unusual situation (outside of the Tevinter, I guess).


It seems a bit hypocratical to say that all of Kirkwall's blood mages were just an abberation and also claim that rampant abuse among the templars has to be the status quo because we meet a few templars in game who are abusive. (Not just repressive and overly strict.)

What other explanation is there for the Kirkwall mages being so much more likely to go crazy and turn to blood magic and demons besides the fact Kirkwall has some of the worst mage treatment around?


Read the Codex. Kirkwall was the site of massive blood rituals where over a thousand died every year for centuries. The Veil is so thin in the undercity even normal people can see demons there. It also says that ancient Tevinter lore is fairly easy to come by on the black market, and there are still secret chambers where you can find old books and relics. It also suggests there might be a cult within the circle or at least Kirkwall devoted to Blood magic, reasearching Tevinter lore and/or trying to achieve whatever it is the old Tevinters were trying to accomplish with their rituals.

It makes me question how many are blood mages purely out of desperation and how many are part of this group.

And honestly, am I the only one who thought some things mentioned in the game indicated when things are working right, circle mages were treated better overall than previously thought? Hawke mom being able to visit Bethany and write letters. Even the big blow up before Anders blew Elthina up. It was about searching the circle. Sure, mages should have some right to privacy, but searching your rooms is something that most of us have probably had nosy parents or siblings do and I took it for granted that the Templars would have already been doing it.

#492
Deztyn

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GunMoth wrote...
I think the reason why the Grand Cleric didn't do much is because she knew she truly had no power, or that it was simply "too much". Imagine walking into a room and seeing a ball of yarn that is extremely tangled. You can say "That is tangled" and be right, but you may not be able to untangle it. You can try, but it would be a waste of time.


This.

Elthina might not be the perfect example of a leader, but I'm honestly not sure what people think she could have done.

#493
Miri1984

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Deztyn wrote...

GunMoth wrote...
I think the reason why the Grand Cleric didn't do much is because she knew she truly had no power, or that it was simply "too much". Imagine walking into a room and seeing a ball of yarn that is extremely tangled. You can say "That is tangled" and be right, but you may not be able to untangle it. You can try, but it would be a waste of time.


This.

Elthina might not be the perfect example of a leader, but I'm honestly not sure what people think she could have done.


To extend the metaphor, if your JOB is "Yarn Untangler to the masses" I think you're obliged to try any way, even if you don't think you can do it.

#494
cglasgow

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Miri1984 wrote...

To extend the metaphor, if your JOB is "Yarn Untangler to the masses" I think you're obliged to try any way, even if you don't think you can do it.

Yeah, but if one of the things the yarn is tangled up in is a land mine, then you can't just yank on the yarn by trial and error and hope to rip something loose; your first big mistake will be your last one.   Slowly and carefully, slowly and carefully...

#495
DeaHamlet

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Yo, rivalry path you can choose to tell Elthina that Anders is up to no good and getthe****out.
She thinks she's untouchable.

Lady, you had a chance to get out, get all your flock out and you decided to be all self important and stay. I can't find it in my heart to feel sorry for you... and I do blame you for what happens to all those innocents.

Mind you, I think I saw a total of 6 people in the chantry whenever I went. All sisters. So I don't know why they're going all out with omg the innocents.

People are being labotamized, yes that's what being made tranquil is the equivalent of. Or killed. Or abused.
Not allowed to have families. Neither as children nor as adults.
Kept prisoner.
These last ones in EVERY circle, not just Kirkwall.

The poor are suffering. One of the mages in game talks about attempting to get Meredith and co (and even the chantry) to help the poor with money... what do they do? Nothing. All the templars have shiny armour and a big chunk of Kirkwall is filled with the poor and dying.

I feel zero sympathy for the chantry.
I asked Elthina to intervene over and over. I told her to get out. I told her things will not go well.

She chose to see things resolve on their own... this is happening over a 6 year span, 3 of those years Meredith is in power unsupervised. The worse Elthina does to Meredith is tell her to go away like a good girl. ARG.
She is actively ignoring and therefore condoning things. She gets told over and over about what's happening, about how dangerous it is to push and push and push mages. None of us are pretty when pushed into a corner.

I would have wanted a solution other than this if possible... but by act 3 ending I am thoroughly convinced that Elthina is unwilling to stop the madness and that the only compromise is at best to return to the way other circles are run.
And after so many years and so much clear sign that the templars are easily open to corruption and abuse and probably left unchecked... I can see that only war is a solution. And mages were not willing to start so Anders did it for them. Maybe it wasn't his place, maybe it was... someone had to do it.

I keep in mind that if I wasn't a mage and told the templars to stand down in DA:O, they would have slaughtered all the mages in that circle as well.

I feel no sympathy for the chantry. None.

And damnit Leliana, I thought I hardened you and told you to go frolick in the sun, what are you doing with the chantry? ARG

#496
Miri1984

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cglasgow wrote...

Miri1984 wrote...

To extend the metaphor, if your JOB is "Yarn Untangler to the masses" I think you're obliged to try any way, even if you don't think you can do it.

Yeah, but if one of the things the yarn is tangled up in is a land mine, then you can't just yank on the yarn by trial and error and hope to rip something loose; your first big mistake will be your last one.   Slowly and carefully, slowly and carefully...


.... and hope someone else doesn't come into the room in the middle and say "boo!" ... which is basically what Anders did. Or perhaps she could have called for the bomb squad? "I'll untangle this yarn if you'll cut the right wires in the right sequence, pretty please Grand Divine lady."

And in any case, she wasn't doing anything. At all. She was just sitting on her well padded behind. You could infer that she was frantically working behind to fix things, but we see NONE of that, just a nice calm old lady saying "it's in the Maker's gentle hands now." To which Anders says, "How about an angry fist of the Maker instead?"

#497
Killjoy Cutter

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Eleinehmm wrote...

cglasgow wrote...

Eleinehmm wrote...

Wait, you mean  that people do not intentionaly kill other people in war ?

Of course they do.  What they don't always do is intentionally kill civilians.

The purpose of war is generally to kill the enemy's soldiers.  You know, those guys with the uniforms and the weapons.  The ones who are shooting at you.

But if you're going to go off on some 'all killing is murder, no matter the motive and no matter the target', then we have no common ground to talk to each other on, we'll just be talking past each other forever.


The question is WHY are they shooting at you, pal. It's not LOTR or Aliens movie. They  shot at you because you shot at them.


That's illogical.  Think about it.

#498
Elysium-Fic

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Deztyn wrote...

Read the Codex. Kirkwall was the site of massive blood rituals where over a thousand died every year for centuries. The Veil is so thin in the undercity even normal people can see demons there. It also says that ancient Tevinter lore is fairly easy to come by on the black market, and there are still secret chambers where you can find old books and relics. It also suggests there might be a cult within the circle or at least Kirkwall devoted to Blood magic, reasearching Tevinter lore and/or trying to achieve whatever it is the old Tevinters were trying to accomplish with their rituals.

It makes me question how many are blood mages purely out of desperation and how many are part of this group.


I would like to investigate this further. Which codex/codices is this information found in?

#499
Rinji the Bearded

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Elysium-Fic wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

Read the Codex. Kirkwall was the site of massive blood rituals where over a thousand died every year for centuries. The Veil is so thin in the undercity even normal people can see demons there. It also says that ancient Tevinter lore is fairly easy to come by on the black market, and there are still secret chambers where you can find old books and relics. It also suggests there might be a cult within the circle or at least Kirkwall devoted to Blood magic, reasearching Tevinter lore and/or trying to achieve whatever it is the old Tevinters were trying to accomplish with their rituals.

It makes me question how many are blood mages purely out of desperation and how many are part of this group.


I would like to investigate this further. Which codex/codices is this information found in?


Enigma of Kirkwall.  The veil was already thin in Kirkwall after all the atrocities from the Tevinter Imperium. I think the mages there turning to darker arts was almost out of their hands -- they were being imprisoned in a place where demons had much more freedom to reach in and tickle their minds.  AND -- the Templars knew of the existence of these so-called records, but told everyone else that they did not exist.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 21 mars 2011 - 02:36 .


#500
Elysium-Fic

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RinjiRenee wrote...

Elysium-Fic wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

Read the Codex. Kirkwall was the site of massive blood rituals where over a thousand died every year for centuries. The Veil is so thin in the undercity even normal people can see demons there. It also says that ancient Tevinter lore is fairly easy to come by on the black market, and there are still secret chambers where you can find old books and relics. It also suggests there might be a cult within the circle or at least Kirkwall devoted to Blood magic, reasearching Tevinter lore and/or trying to achieve whatever it is the old Tevinters were trying to accomplish with their rituals.

It makes me question how many are blood mages purely out of desperation and how many are part of this group.


I would like to investigate this further. Which codex/codices is this information found in?


Enigma of Kirkwall.  The veil was already thin in Kirkwall after all the atrocities from the Tevinter Imperium. I think the mages there turning to darker arts was almost out of their hands -- they were being imprisoned in a place where demons had much more freedom to reach in and tickle their minds.  AND -- the Templars knew of the existence of these so-called records, but told everyone else that they did not exist.


Thank you!