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Andrastes flaming pants, Anders! (Spoilers)


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#501
Mitsugi

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DeaHamlet wrote...
Mind you, I think I saw a total of 6 people in the chantry whenever I went. All sisters. So I don't know why they're going all out with omg the innocents.

Maybe because when you rain large chunks of masonry and burning wood all over a densely populated area, presumably a significant fraction of it is going to land on people. Not like Bob the Peasant's roof can withstand a ton of granite coming down at high speed. Which is, of course, Anders' objective. If the masses of population aren't enraged enough, the mages won't panic and rebel. This is why I think the "collateral damage" is totally deliberate. The church bits get sucked up into a vortex before getting shot all over the place, they aren't just shot out of an explosion. It would be really odd if it all couldn't be, like, dropped in the ocean or shot far outside the city or slammed back into the wreck of the Chantry. 

I mean, if Anders is justified in massacring innocents to free the mages, then Meredith is justified in killing the, like, half-dozen non-demon-worshipping Circle mages in order to purge the two hundred maleficars. And the Chantry in general is justified in locking up all the mages to make sure that the general population isn't brutalized by a resurgent Tevinter Imperium (and that mobs don't burn all the mages). Everybody's right! 

I mean, the blood mages and abominations say that there's no way they'd all be volunteering to murder people for power without the templars cracking down, but why believe them? Everybody who has done something they think is wrong (or they think will be seen as wrong) says "It's not my fault, I was pushed into it." I mean, Meredith says she'd be less draconian if the Circle wasn't all blood magic, all the time. Loghain claims he was forced by Cailan, Branka says she was forced by the fall of the dwarven empire, Rendon Howe blames the Couslands. Hell, Orsino has the temerity to blame hiding (and supporting) a serial killer on how bad it would look if it came out. That's chutzpah right there. If people would be pissed if it became known that you had Dr. Mengele on your staff, the solution is not hiring Dr. Mengele. I mean, exactly what level of reasonableness would Meredith have to have for Orsino to not pal around with Quentin? He's not just covering up the blood mage, he's actively aiding him. That goes way past "Meredith would crack down harder if this came out" and into "Wow, murdering women and reanimating the pieces sounds super fun!"
 
And what, exactly, is the end state for Anders' plan? I see three options: First, the Templars plus, like, every non-Tevinter Andrastian achieve victory and the best case is like now. Second, the mages, despite being drastically outnumbered, starting off imprisoned by their enemies, and hated or feared by pretty much everybody, manage to pull off a win. Since Anders has guaranteed that common sympathy is not on the table, victory requires either slaughtering enough peasants to make them afraid, or just mind-controlling everyone into submission. Hello, Tevinter. Three, the Qunari take advantage of the chaos and enslave *everybody*. Thanks, Anders. You're a hero!

#502
SurelyForth

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@Mitsugi Unless Anders was going for the irony of the physical bits of Chantry causing damage, I don't think he intended for it to do a mass amount of harm to anything but the building itself and its inhabitants. He could have just bombed all of Hightown if he wanted that, but his goal was to take out Elthina and any possibility that she could be called to mediate and offer a solution that did nothing but prolong the stalemate.

And Kirkwall was always in danger of being made an example of, anyway (also, on a Hellmouth). The Divine was readying her armies and would have attacked indiscriminately, possibly killing more in the process. That would have, arguably, done just as much to turn public opinion against mages since they would be used as scapegoats in this Exalted March.

#503
cleosilver

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Maker's breath why didn't you tell me

#504
Arppis

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TripLight wrote...

LOL, well in a roundabout way, Flemeth did warn us.


She could have just said that this is gonna happen! If we could have snapped his neck beforehand, this would have been cakewalk. Instead it's World War Magi!

#505
RPGrogue

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In real life, Id be pissed
but when It happend I had a huge smile on my face, nice twist

#506
DeaHamlet

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OMG. This playthrough I just clicked on Elthina after talking to sister Petrice about the kidnapped Qunari delegates.
You know what she said? She'll intervene when the time is right.
ARG, woman, you infuriate me! Yeah, she intervenes AFTER the Qunari are dead. AFTER a whole bunch of people are dead from the poison gas.

I'm... there's just... seriously...
The more I bother to click on her and talk to her about stuff, the more I dislike her.

#507
MorningBird

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DeaHamlet wrote...

OMG. This playthrough I just clicked on Elthina after talking to sister Petrice about the kidnapped Qunari delegates.
You know what she said? She'll intervene when the time is right.
ARG, woman, you infuriate me! Yeah, she intervenes AFTER the Qunari are dead. AFTER a whole bunch of people are dead from the poison gas.

I'm... there's just... seriously...
The more I bother to click on her and talk to her about stuff, the more I dislike her.


I don't dislike her, per se.  I do believe that she's a good woman at the core.  The people wouldn't love and respect her otherwise.

However, Elthina does accurately represent the chantry's perpetual failure to jump into action.  It seems like they don't take anything seriously until '**** hits the fan', and by then, the situation is often too irritated for them to reverse the damage.

Modifié par MorningBird, 27 mars 2011 - 04:04 .


#508
mesmerizedish

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MorningBird wrote...

I don't dislike her, per se.  I do believe that she's a good woman at the core.  The people wouldn't love and respect her otherwise.

However, Elthina does accurately represent the chantry's perpetual failure to jump into action.  It seems they don't take anything seriously until '**** hits the fan', and by then, the situation is often too irritated for them to reverse the damage.


I only looked into this thread because I saw you posted.

I don't think Elthina is a bad person, just a bad Grand Cleric. Those are her templars that she's ignoring, while they break Chantry law, rape mages, and generally be huge douchebags. I'm not saying that the mages are all nice and innocent, but the mages aren't her responsibility. Templars are, and tshe's just letting them get away with everything.

Maybe she's just terrified of Meredith too?

#509
MorningBird

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ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

I only looked into this thread because I saw you posted.

I don't think Elthina is a bad person, just a bad Grand Cleric. Those are her templars that she's ignoring, while they break Chantry law, rape mages, and generally be huge douchebags. I'm not saying that the mages are all nice and innocent, but the mages aren't her responsibility. Templars are, and tshe's just letting them get away with everything.

Maybe she's just terrified of Meredith too?


The chantry is responsible for the mages, at least to a degree (the chantry dictates the laws of the circle and which schools of magic they can study, the chantry OWNS the children of mages, mages have to go through the chantry to get special permission to marry, etc...) The templars are just the arm of the chantry that's charged with guarding/hunting mages.

At least, that's how I saw it. :crying:  I WILL BELIEVE YOU IF YOU TELL ME DIFFERENTLY THOUGH, because you wouldn't lie to me. <3

Either way, I agree.  Elthina isn't a bad person.  She was just a terrible Grand Cleric. ):

#510
DeaHamlet

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ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

MorningBird wrote...

I don't dislike her, per se.  I do believe that she's a good woman at the core.  The people wouldn't love and respect her otherwise.

However, Elthina does accurately represent the chantry's perpetual failure to jump into action.  It seems they don't take anything seriously until '**** hits the fan', and by then, the situation is often too irritated for them to reverse the damage.


I only looked into this thread because I saw you posted.

I don't think Elthina is a bad person, just a bad Grand Cleric. Those are her templars that she's ignoring, while they break Chantry law, rape mages, and generally be huge douchebags. I'm not saying that the mages are all nice and innocent, but the mages aren't her responsibility. Templars are, and tshe's just letting them get away with everything.

Maybe she's just terrified of Meredith too?


I dunno, she tells Meredith "go away like a good girl"... I mean if that wouldn't cause Meredith's ire, I don't know what would :P.
Yes, she's a bad Grand Cleric.  I don't wish to debate if she's a good person or not at the core, but she is not taking care of business.  There's zero doubt that sister/mother Petrice is her underling and yet... she does nothing until it's basically too late because the bloodshed has occurred.  
I am also zero impressed with their lack of concern for anyone other than those in Hightown.  That mage from Darktown made me feel so ashamed and enraged... she tried to get help for the poor from Meredith and the chantry and... nothing.  Her point about Hawke enjoying the sweetmeats also hit me to the core.  Hawke is sometimes just as oblivious at times *sigh*.

#511
MorningBird

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DeaHamlet wrote...
I dunno, she tells Meredith "go away like a good girl"... I mean if that wouldn't cause Meredith's ire, I don't know what would :P.
Yes, she's a bad Grand Cleric.  I don't wish to debate if she's a good person or not at the core, but she is not taking care of business.  There's zero doubt that sister/mother Petrice is her underling and yet... she does nothing until it's basically too late because the bloodshed has occurred.  
I am also zero impressed with their lack of concern for anyone other than those in Hightown.  That mage from Darktown made me feel so ashamed and enraged... she tried to get help for the poor from Meredith and the chantry and... nothing.  Her point about Hawke enjoying the sweetmeats also hit me to the core.  Hawke is sometimes just as oblivious at times *sigh*.


You are not alone in this.  Did you notice that you could give her money to help pay for the children in Act 2?  I did, and was rightly stunned when I found out what became of her in Act 3. :crying:  So much for the chantry helping refugees.  I'm really beginning to wonder if the chantry 'lending a hand' to those in need is a universal thing, of if Ferelden just kicks major butt.

Modifié par MorningBird, 27 mars 2011 - 04:25 .


#512
mesmerizedish

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MorningBird wrote...

The chantry is responsible for the mages, at least to a degree (the chantry dictates the laws of the circle and which schools of magic they can study, the chantry OWNS the children of mages, mages have to go through the chantry to get special permission to marry, etc...) The templars are just the arm of the chantry that's charged with guarding/hunting mages.

At least, that's how I saw it. :crying:  I WILL BELIEVE YOU IF YOU TELL ME DIFFERENTLY THOUGH, because you wouldn't lie to me. <3

Either way, I agree.  Elthina isn't a bad person.  She was just a terrible Grand Cleric. ):


Well, what I mean is that the Templars are Elthina's business, and the mages are the Templars' business. Elthina isn't directly involved with keeping mages in line. That's the whole reason the Templars exist.

#513
MorningBird

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ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Well, what I mean is that the Templars are Elthina's business, and the mages are the Templars' business. Elthina isn't directly involved with keeping mages in line. That's the whole reason the Templars exist.


... OH. >.> Well then, um... *distracts with cuddling?*

#514
mesmerizedish

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MorningBird wrote...

... OH. >.> Well then, um... *distracts with cuddling?*


GOODNESS GRACIOUS WHY ARE YOU SO GOOD WITH DISTRACTIONS?!?!

*blissfully accepts cuddles*

#515
DeaHamlet

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MorningBird wrote...

DeaHamlet wrote...
I dunno, she tells Meredith "go away like a good girl"... I mean if that wouldn't cause Meredith's ire, I don't know what would :P.
Yes, she's a bad Grand Cleric.  I don't wish to debate if she's a good person or not at the core, but she is not taking care of business.  There's zero doubt that sister/mother Petrice is her underling and yet... she does nothing until it's basically too late because the bloodshed has occurred.  
I am also zero impressed with their lack of concern for anyone other than those in Hightown.  That mage from Darktown made me feel so ashamed and enraged... she tried to get help for the poor from Meredith and the chantry and... nothing.  Her point about Hawke enjoying the sweetmeats also hit me to the core.  Hawke is sometimes just as oblivious at times *sigh*.


You are not alone in this.  Did you notice that you could give her money to help pay for the children in Act 2?  I did, and was rightly stunned when I found out what became of her in Act 3. :crying:  So much for the chantry helping refugees.  I'm really beginning to wonder if the chantry 'lending a hand' to those in need is a universal thing, of if Ferelden just kicks major butt.


I miss Ferelden :crying:. For all the darkspawn and blight business, it felt almost sane compared to Kirkwall.  SAD!
I gave her money in act 2 in my 2nd and 3rd playthrough, first time I didn't even notice I could click on her.  It was just a silver... 
I noticed that the ones helping the poor were: other poor people (Lowtown imports store) and Anders. Everyone wants to shank Anders from the beginning, but he's about the only one helping the poor and sick... oy.
I wasn't all too impressed with Elthina going on about my grandmother and how grand of a lady she was... Oh you admire her because she's nobility?!?! 

#516
DeaHamlet

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o.O cuddles. Justice would so not approve. You're a DISTRACTION!

#517
mesmerizedish

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DeaHamlet wrote...

o.O cuddles. Justice would so not approve. You're a DISTRACTION!


Go away. Cuddles are about to become "cuddles ;););)"

*lurid eyebrow waggling*

#518
DeaHamlet

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My eyes, my eyes!

LOL. I'm kidding. Your two avatars look sexy :P. But I shall step away as I'm not like Sebastian or Isabela who cannot stop themselves from watching. (It was weird that after Fenris sexy times Sebastian was downstairs... o.O Embarrassing!)

#519
MorningBird

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DeaHamlet wrote...

My eyes, my eyes!

LOL. I'm kidding. Your two avatars look sexy :P. But I shall step away as I'm not like Sebastian or Isabela who cannot stop themselves from watching. (It was weird that after Fenris sexy times Sebastian was downstairs... o.O Embarrassing!)


Sebastian is a creeper. :whistle:

#520
mesmerizedish

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MorningBird wrote...

DeaHamlet wrote...

My eyes, my eyes!

LOL. I'm kidding. Your two avatars look sexy :P. But I shall step away as I'm not like Sebastian or Isabela who cannot stop themselves from watching. (It was weird that after Fenris sexy times Sebastian was downstairs... o.O Embarrassing!)


Sebastian is a creeper. :whistle:


That... is... really creepy...

#521
MorningBird

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ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

That... is... really creepy...


Yeah, apparently anytime Hawke has sexy!time, Sebastian is right there.

Well, not in the bedroom, obviously.

...

Or is he?

*ninja!Sebastian?*

#522
Cyanios

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My reaction? stuck silent then going: first mos of the mages goes into bloodmagic, then the first enchanter, and now you Anders? ****ing hell, I have little love for the chantry and it's tempelar lapdogs, but ****ing hell, the revered mother was nice and he killed her with all the people hidding in the chantry.

That is Murder. and Murder with none redeeming features as the act was not needed is only done one way. Anders die at the end of my games, allways.

#523
mesmerizedish

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MorningBird wrote...

Yeah, apparently anytime Hawke has sexy!time, Sebastian is right there.

Well, not in the bedroom, obviously.

...

Or is he?

*ninja!Sebastian?*


DAII rogues are ninjas... and Sebastian can dual-wield instead of archerify on the PC.

CREEPER :police:

#524
MelfinaofOutlawStar

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Image IPB

#525
DarthSliver

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MorningBird wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

That... is... really creepy...


Yeah, apparently anytime Hawke has sexy!time, Sebastian is right there.

Well, not in the bedroom, obviously.

...

Or is he?

*ninja!Sebastian?*


Um now that makes sense why he doesnt have sex in his Romance. Too busy watching others.