552 réponses à ce sujet

[Irku]

When I got to this part, I blamed The Wardens! They made him get rid of Ser Pounce-A-Lot. He needs a cat to look after.....or else tempars die...

But honestly I sided with him the whole way since I was a mage. I understood & agreed with his point of view.

[EscherEnigma]

Addai67 wrote...

You weren't put off by the fact that he lied to your PC about what he was planning?

Oh, I was.  Garrett and Hawke had a tiff before he played distraction, along the lines of "trust me, and do this without asking." "Trust me that I'll help you regardless!" "ARGH!" "RAGE!" "EMOTIOINAL BLACKMAIL!" "FINE!"

So it wasn't entirely unexpected.  But I also did Ander's quest first think in Act III, so there was a bit of a gap between when I helped him and he cut the Gordian Knot.

[ECuyler]

leggywillow wrote...

"GODDAMNIT, ANDERS."

Followed by a knife to the back. That was really messed up.

[Zykovia]

FadeTheAssassin wrote...

Zykovia wrote...

FadeTheAssassin wrote...

Now, hold on. Notice, that they only turn to Blood magic, AFTER all this crap has been done them? I mean, hell even Orsino only used quintens magic BECAUSE he looked around and saw all those that he raised over the years since they were probably children, Dead, KILLED by the templars. How would YOU feel? Like Leandra did when Bethany/Carver is killed in the beginning, THATS how.  Wouldnt you want revenge on the ones who have wronged you so many times before?

Also, Does that mean your calling Merrill insane? She didnt do it for power or some no-good reason. She wanted to help Restore her peoples heritage.

The only mage that wasn't a menace is Bethany, I tried so hard to side with the mages because of their oppression, but every interaction with them was essentially them being monsters.  Orsino talked a big game about never using it, but he knew about Quintin and hid him and allowed him to continue, makes me doubt that Orsino wasn't a blood mage, Meredith was definitely crazy, but crazy may have been onto something about seeing blood magic every where in her circle.

I culled the mages, let those three live who surrendered, and saved Bethany.  Killed Anders without a second thought.

I'd still like to hear you justify merrill being Insane. And how is flemeth a menace? Or wynne? Or most of fereldans circle of Magi?

Only mage in DA2 that was not a menace was Bethany.  Wynne was good in DAO.  Flemeth goes around devouring the souls of her 'daughters', hardly a poster child for not being a danger, and no telling what she is up to in the long haul.  A significant portion of the DAO circle went for blood magic and slaughtered their own.  Seriously about Merrill?  She turned to blood magic to restore a mirror, was clearly hell bent on becoming an abomination as her keeper kept informing her and leads to her keeper's death (and likely the death of her whole clan) and she still blames them for not believing in her.

Anders blowing up the Chantry is not striking a first blow in a war, it is slaughtering innocent orphans and refugees who take shelter there, he blew up a building, killed a cleric, and blindly slaughtered many more to start his pet war. 

When you send the elf with nightmares to the tevinter imperium he sends you a letter of what their mage run society is like, and he is appalled.  Not to mention mages without a circle created the blight!  The scope of that tragedy is beyond epic.

Anders was a terrorist.  (Was because he is dead now)

[Deztyn]

EvilEresh wrote...

It's not just a conflict in one city.  It happens everywhere in the world.  It was happening in DA:O.  You have to choose whether or not to call the Rite of Annulment there yourself.  This bit of oppression just happens to be made worse by the relic and Anders anger is worse by Vengeance, but the situation is already to the boiling point in Ferelden in DA:O.  DA2 is the natural progression of ages of oppression.  This is not isolated.

In Fereldan the conflict was with a small number of blood mages who unleashed demons and deliberately created abombinations to take over the circle and the fairly reasonable Greagoir, who just didn't have the power to root out just the bad ones. And was more than willing to call it off once the also reasonable First Enchanter Irving was rescued. Ultimately what happened only affected the Circle and those in it, whether the Warden had the tower annuled or not.

In Kirkwall, Blood mages and abominations really are everywhere, not just the poor oppressed mages in the circle. The bad templars are given free reign in their abuses. The Knight Commander is a nutcase. The First Enchanter is a Blood mage, and an accessory to your mother's murder. And the only reasonable person in a position of power got blown up.

The circles in Fereldan and Kirkwall are very different things. Kirkwall is not a natural progression so much as it is the absolute worst case scenario.

Which is pretty irrevelent anyway my point was an attempt at total revolution will not just affect the mages and templars but everyone in Thedas.  It's naive to think this is not going to cause bloodshed on a massive scale and in the end the world might not even be better for it.

[leggywillow]

ECuyler wrote...

leggywillow wrote...

"GODDAMNIT, ANDERS."

Followed by a knife to the back. That was really messed up.

Well in my case, it was followed by my lovesick Hawke wanting to kiss it all better and head for the hills.    Thank goodness it's just a video game, or I think I would explode trying to get the strength to punish him.

[Cerelinde]

Just finished now, with Anders as my romance - well, OK, after a fling with Isabela. -cough-

When he had Hawke distract the grand cleric, I actually thought he was going to plant something explosive, but I was thinking something -small-! I'd entirely forgotten about that, though, when I got to the actual moment. I am totally in the jaw-on-the-floor/'GODDAMNIT, ANDERS' camp.

Shame, he looked super cute in that black outfit.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Cerelinde wrote...

Shame, he looked super cute in that black outfit.

I still ran off with that cute/crazy apostate.  Of course, my Hawke was just as devoted to freeing the mages and considerably less of a good person than Anders, so...yeah.  Also, the look of disbelief and adoration on his face when you spare him is just heartbreaking.  GODDAMMIT ANDERS.

[FadeTheAssassin]

SnakeHelah wrote...

Well, For me it was one of the most "WTF" moments in gaming, but then I thought : Wow! at least I can give him credit for such a lightshow!

Okay, this guy, is win. This one right here.

[Quyk Sylvyr]

In Fereldan the conflict was with a small number of blood mages who unleashed demons and deliberately created abombinations to take over the circle and the fairly reasonable Greagoir, who just didn't have the power to root out just the bad ones.

It's funny but I never considered Greagoir reasonable in DA.  Without pressure from templars, I don't think Jowan would ever have turned to blood magic.  When I first created a mage character in DA, I just wanted to slap him and proudly told him I didn't regret helping my friend.

Going back to Anders:

I will admit I started wondering what Anders had put me up to in Act 3 when he said that he'd break my heart.  I started thinking about what he would have wanted in the chantry - and then Sebastian asked me to talk to the mother about leaving.  All I could think was "Oh no.  Please Anders. . don't do what I think you might be doing.  You wouldn't, would you?"

After the bomb, I kept Anders with me. (I actually originally told him to just run away but as I was in a romance with him, I decided I didn't want to spend the rest of my character's life alone so I reloaded and kept him with me).  I wish I could have turned to him while running through the city near the end and said "See these mages.  Their deaths are your fault.  They became abominations because you pushed the templars and didn't give them a way out."  I felt like there was no middle ground in responding to Anders - you either agreed or you killed him.  I just wanted to yell at him for a while and have him express some regret - not just for the chantry but also what came after.

Modifié par Quyk Sylvyr, 14 mars 2011 - 03:26 .

[FadeTheAssassin]

Zykovia wrote...

FadeTheAssassin wrote...

Zykovia wrote...

FadeTheAssassin wrote...

Now, hold on. Notice, that they only turn to Blood magic, AFTER all this crap has been done them? I mean, hell even Orsino only used quintens magic BECAUSE he looked around and saw all those that he raised over the years since they were probably children, Dead, KILLED by the templars. How would YOU feel? Like Leandra did when Bethany/Carver is killed in the beginning, THATS how.  Wouldnt you want revenge on the ones who have wronged you so many times before?

Also, Does that mean your calling Merrill insane? She didnt do it for power or some no-good reason. She wanted to help Restore her peoples heritage.

The only mage that wasn't a menace is Bethany, I tried so hard to side with the mages because of their oppression, but every interaction with them was essentially them being monsters.  Orsino talked a big game about never using it, but he knew about Quintin and hid him and allowed him to continue, makes me doubt that Orsino wasn't a blood mage, Meredith was definitely crazy, but crazy may have been onto something about seeing blood magic every where in her circle.

I culled the mages, let those three live who surrendered, and saved Bethany.  Killed Anders without a second thought.

I'd still like to hear you justify merrill being Insane. And how is flemeth a menace? Or wynne? Or most of fereldans circle of Magi?

Only mage in DA2 that was not a menace was Bethany.  Wynne was good in DAO.  Flemeth goes around devouring the souls of her 'daughters', hardly a poster child for not being a danger, and no telling what she is up to in the long haul.  A significant portion of the DAO circle went for blood magic and slaughtered their own.  Seriously about Merrill?  She turned to blood magic to restore a mirror, was clearly hell bent on becoming an abomination as her keeper kept informing her and leads to her keeper's death (and likely the death of her whole clan) and she still blames them for not believing in her.

Anders blowing up the Chantry is not striking a first blow in a war, it is slaughtering innocent orphans and refugees who take shelter there, he blew up a building, killed a cleric, and blindly slaughtered many more to start his pet war. 

When you send the elf with nightmares to the tevinter imperium he sends you a letter of what their mage run society is like, and he is appalled.  Not to mention mages without a circle created the blight!  The scope of that tragedy is beyond epic.

Anders was a terrorist.  (Was because he is dead now)

Okay, one, ill admit that flemeth was a poor choice there. just popped into my mind. However, most of the mages in fereldans circle...Hold on. I think i only counted 5-6 blood mages in the circle tower. the rest were mercenarys and there were only 7 or 8 blood mages in that one place in denerim.

Merrill only ever asked for her clans trust. Your argument would say that bethany is the only non-menace mage. Merrill never seemed a 'menace' to me. Besides, believe it or not friend, Some mages can actually resist the temptation of demons.

Now, ill grant the tevinter imperium is not the best thing in the world. But thats a low blow. It was only 5 magister lords who fell victum to thier on pride.

Im even willing to grant that being in a circle is nesesscary. But the chantry goes about it the wrong way. Even you can't deny that. Hell, the fereldan circle seem's to work the best, and i think thats because The first enchanter Irving and Knight-commander Greagor have a small amount of friendship between them. Meredith and Orsino are both resentful of one another to the extreme.

I notice another mage who was not a menace. Morrigan. She wasnt the...nicest... person around, but never a menace. I honestly stand up for what Anders did. I dissaprove, but reflecting on what flemeth said, i find myself able to forgive.

I also notice that you did not mention how YOU would feel in orsinos boots if you saw everyone you raised and cared about killed.

Modifié par FadeTheAssassin, 14 mars 2011 - 03:43 .

[tmspartan]

leggywillow wrote...

"GODDAMNIT, ANDERS."

Pretty much this.

Anders going psycho-crazy from the spirit of justice annoyed me more than it made me feel bad for the "plight of the mages"

So many times I wanted to just hit him when he started ****ing to Fenris about how mages are just as oppressed and slaves as he was.

[trobbins777]

"I'm not even mad......... i'm just impressed......Here's a knife for your trouble."

On a more serious note it was Sebastian's reaction that really made me pissed off at Anders. Poor guy looses his family and now the woman who was like a mother to him gets blown the hell up for absolutely no reason.

[LT123]

trobbins777 wrote...

"I'm not even mad......... i'm just impressed......Here's a knife for your trouble."

On a more serious note it was Sebastian's reaction that really made me pissed off at Anders. Poor guy looses his family and now the woman who was like a mother to him gets blown the hell up for absolutely no reason.

One of the few times I've seen a character cry "Nooooo!" and it actually worked instead of making me laugh. Felt bad for the guy. Good job, Seb's VA.

[trobbins777]

Also now that we're on the subject does anyone realize that he quotes Flemeth when he says "There can be no peace."? It makes you wonder if that appointment Flemeth had was with him.

[Sable Rhapsody]

LT123 wrote...

trobbins777 wrote...

"I'm not even mad......... i'm just impressed......Here's a knife for your trouble."

On a more serious note it was Sebastian's reaction that really made me pissed off at Anders. Poor guy looses his family and now the woman who was like a mother to him gets blown the hell up for absolutely no reason.

One of the few times I've seen a character cry "Nooooo!" and it actually worked instead of making me laugh. Felt bad for the guy. Good job, Seb's VA.

Same here.  The anguish...and then the sheer hate in his voice when he turns on Anders and the PC if you spare him is just spine-chilling.

[LT123]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

LT123 wrote...

trobbins777 wrote...

"I'm not even mad......... i'm just impressed......Here's a knife for your trouble."

On a more serious note it was Sebastian's reaction that really made me pissed off at Anders. Poor guy looses his family and now the woman who was like a mother to him gets blown the hell up for absolutely no reason.

One of the few times I've seen a character cry "Nooooo!" and it actually worked instead of making me laugh. Felt bad for the guy. Good job, Seb's VA.

Same here.  The anguish...and then the sheer hate in his voice when he turns on Anders and the PC if you spare him is just spine-chilling.

The "precious Anders" line is delivered, really, really well.

[Sable Rhapsody]

LT123 wrote...

The "precious Anders" line is delivered, really, really well.

One of the things I was impressed with in DA2 was its ability to make me feel things based on the sides I took, regardless of what I the player actually think of the morality of the events.  I learned to hate templars and enjoy fighting them.  It killed me seeing the mages dying during the endgame.  And the vitriol from Seb when he rounded on me really hurt, especially since my PC and Seb had once been friends.

[Luvinn]

leggywillow wrote...

"GODDAMNIT, ANDERS."

Pretty much this, exactly. I was all ready to talk the situation down and get everyone civil again, then hes goes off and blows up the chantry!..... goddamit, Anders!

Modifié par Luvinn, 14 mars 2011 - 05:29 .

[cglasgow]

FadeTheAssassin wrote...

I also notice that you did not mention how YOU would feel in orsinos boots if you saw everyone you raised and cared about killed.

Orsino?  The guy who helped the serial killer that did up Mama Hawke like something out of Se7en?   The guy who admits to having helped conceal his crimes from the authorities?  (it's in the templar ending)

Why should I give the slightest damn about how Orsino feels?  Orsino's as much of a monster as Meredith.

[Dan-mac RI]

I have no love for the chantry, the divine was a reasonable woman and that's exactly why Anders did what he did. She could have resolved the issue effecting no change. I'm sorry she had to die but I understand why Anders did what he did. If you consider the deaths of the few in the chantry compared to the deaths of innocent non-blood mage apostates at the hands of the Templars, you come up with hundreds compared to several thousands over the years

Basically, I stood with Anders because you have to choose a side in history and I sure as hell wasn't going to stand with the lyrium addicts and their pushers, no matter what Anders did to force the issue.

[Miri1984]

Dan-mac RI wrote...

I have no love for the chantry, the divine was a reasonable woman and that's exactly why Anders did what he did. She could have resolved the issue effecting no change. I'm sorry she had to die but I understand why Anders did what he did. If you consider the deaths of the few in the chantry compared to the deaths of innocent non-blood mage apostates at the hands of the Templars, you come up with hundreds compared to several thousands over the years

Basically, I stood with Anders because you have to choose a side in history and I sure as hell wasn't going to stand with the lyrium addicts and their pushers, no matter what Anders did to force the issue.

This. No matter that the Grand Cleric was essentially a good person (although she bloody creeped me out at the beginning of Act 3, I seriously thought SHE was going to turn out to be a demon) neutrality in that situation was NOT an option. SOMETHING had to be done, and NOTHING was. If she had stepped in, taken out Meredith earlier, the situation would not have gone that far. She had the power to change it and she didn't use it. If she had used it, YES there would have been war, but it was pretty darn obvious even from the beginning of DA:O that war was the only thing that would resolve the situtation.

As for Anders blowing up the Chantry, my reaction was pretty much the universal GODDAMMIT ANDERS (and it NEEDS TO BE A SIG) tempered with "I totally get it, I just wish it hadn't been you." And if the game hadn't systematically ripped away everyone I cared about (Bethany, Carver, my MUM!) I might have killed him, but by that stage my Hawke had had enough of losing people she loved to a conflict over something that was inherently wrong. So she spared him and ran off. 

[Camilladilla]

Miri1984 wrote...

Dan-mac RI wrote...

I have no love for the chantry, the divine was a reasonable woman and that's exactly why Anders did what he did. She could have resolved the issue effecting no change. I'm sorry she had to die but I understand why Anders did what he did. If you consider the deaths of the few in the chantry compared to the deaths of innocent non-blood mage apostates at the hands of the Templars, you come up with hundreds compared to several thousands over the years

Basically, I stood with Anders because you have to choose a side in history and I sure as hell wasn't going to stand with the lyrium addicts and their pushers, no matter what Anders did to force the issue.

This. No matter that the Grand Cleric was essentially a good person (although she bloody creeped me out at the beginning of Act 3, I seriously thought SHE was going to turn out to be a demon) neutrality in that situation was NOT an option. SOMETHING had to be done, and NOTHING was. If she had stepped in, taken out Meredith earlier, the situation would not have gone that far. She had the power to change it and she didn't use it. If she had used it, YES there would have been war, but it was pretty darn obvious even from the beginning of DA:O that war was the only thing that would resolve the situtation.

I also agree. I always have a fondness for characters who are kick ass through mere presence and Elthina definitely had it, but her neutrality didn't help in a situation that needed intervention. Had she taken action earlier when it was becoming obvious that the things were going to get bad, I don't even think a war would have errupted at all.

[uncledolan]

I loved anders in Awakening, in this game though he is a total douche. I get they explain it well with him merging with Justice and becoming one person, but its annoying nonetheless

[Deztyn]

Or if she had taken action the war would have started anyway. Side with the mages and Meredith rants about how blood mages have gotten to her. Side with the templars and the mages who are already close to the edge and planning to revolt finally lash out. Kirkwall was already a powder keg by Act III and only need a spark to set it off.

So of course Anders dropped a freaking nuclear bomb on it instead.