552 réponses à ce sujet

[cglasgow]

What could Elthina have done? Meredith is a lost cause from the moment she gets the idol... which means for all of Act 2.

And in Act 1, things are not fun for the mages, no, but they're nowhere near bad enough to justify relieving Meredith.

[LT123]

Miri1984 wrote...

Dan-mac RI wrote...

*snip* .

This. No matter that the Grand Cleric was essentially a good person (although she bloody creeped me out at the beginning of Act 3, I seriously thought SHE was going to turn out to be a demon) neutrality in that situation was NOT an option. SOMETHING had to be done, and NOTHING was. If she had stepped in, taken out Meredith earlier, the situation would not have gone that far. She had the power to change it and she didn't use it. If she had used it, YES there would have been war, but it was pretty darn obvious even from the beginning of DA:O that war was the only thing that would resolve the situtation.

As for Anders blowing up the Chantry, my reaction was pretty much the universal GODDAMMIT ANDERS (and it NEEDS TO BE A SIG) tempered with "I totally get it, I just wish it hadn't been you." And if the game hadn't systematically ripped away everyone I cared about (Bethany, Carver, my MUM!) I might have killed him, but by that stage my Hawke had had enough of losing people she loved to a conflict over something that was inherently wrong. So she spared him and ran off. 

Precisely what I thought of the Grand Cleric, except she didn't creep me out. I think even Seb called her out about taking a stand.
That's why my Hawke spared Anders, too. I was really tired of losing people after Carver and Leandra dying and Bethany being sent to the Circle. And if Anders lived, he could help defend the mages, at the very least.

[Fidget6]

 Disappointed. Anders was by far my favorite character and love interest, I asked him to leave once he did that, but after siding with the mages we made up.

[Fidget6]

double post

Modifié par Fidget6, 14 mars 2011 - 06:55 .

[Kattack]

leggywillow wrote...

"GODDAMNIT, ANDERS."

^--- This. I mean, JEEZ I was trying to be a mediator and get some balance but no, NO, there's no such thing in Anders/Justice's world.
Followed quickly by an, "Oh crap, I'm dating a terrorist."

Also, "Why HER and not MEREDITH?"

Though, when Sebastian asks your character if you'd still be waffling on the issue if he had been inside the Chantry, did anyone else want the option to say, "Yes, now shut up!" or am I just a bad person?

I kind of blame Justice though. It felt like what he wanted to do at the end of Awakening. Even though it was the Mother who had killed his body and the Mother who had been killing people, he REALLY didn't want me to leave the Architect alive. Like seriously, what did the Architect ever do to HIM?
So yeah, it's Justice's fault. >.>

[Miri1984]

Deztyn wrote...

Or if she had taken action the war would have started anyway. Side with the mages and Meredith rants about how blood mages have gotten to her. Side with the templars and the mages who are already close to the edge and planning to revolt finally lash out. Kirkwall was already a powder keg by Act III and only need a spark to set it off.

So of course Anders dropped a freaking nuclear bomb on it instead.

Oh, I agree totally, the war was going to happen no matter what, but she could have dictated some of the terms. As it was, Anders was the one who dictated it, and if it hadn't been him, it would have been someone else... She needed to realise that it was inevitable and take a side. But she didn't. And as a result far there were far more innocents killed than needed to be.

[Miri1984]

cglasgow wrote...

What could Elthina have done? Meredith is a lost cause from the moment she gets the idol... which means for all of Act 2.

And in Act 1, things are not fun for the mages, no, but they're nowhere near bad enough to justify relieving Meredith.

Alain says  "The Templars... ask things of us." She is allowing her men to systematically abuse their charges. I think that's justification to "relieve" Meredith. Hells yes.

And in answer, Elthina could have run, informed the Grand Cleric. An exalted march couldn't have been much worse than what actually happened (and may have left the circles intact). She could have relieved Meredith - she had that power. She wasn't helpless.

[LT123]

Kattack wrote...

leggywillow wrote...

"GODDAMNIT, ANDERS."

*snip*

Though, when Sebastian asks your character if you'd still be waffling on the issue if he had been inside the Chantry, did anyone else want the option to say, "Yes, now shut up!" or am I just a bad person?

*snip*

Ummm. *raises hand* Sorry, Seb.

[cglasgow]

Miri1984 wrote...

Alain says  "The Templars... ask things of us." She is allowing her men to systematically abuse their charges. I think that's justification to "relieve" Meredith. Hells yes.

Yes, it is.  But that's not in act 1.   And past act 1, Meredith is not going to accept being relieved; you'd need to kill her.  (Not that I'd mind.)

The discussion is moot, however.  Whatever the Grand Cleric could have done differently, she is still by far the most moral person involved in the entire mess, and she did not knowingly turn a blind eye to atrocity.  (Unknowingly is a different matter.)  She is in fact the only primary operator that can claim to be reasonably free of sin.   Lord knows Meredith, Orsino, and Anders can't.

Modifié par cglasgow, 14 mars 2011 - 08:18 .

[Miri1984]

cglasgow wrote...

Miri1984 wrote...

Alain says  "The Templars... ask things of us." She is allowing her men to systematically abuse their charges. I think that's justification to "relieve" Meredith. Hells yes.

Yes, it is.  But that's not in act 1.   And past act 1, Meredith is not going to accept being relieved; you'd need to kill her.  (Not that I'd mind.)

The discussion is moot, however.  Whatever the Grand Cleric could have done differently, she is still by far the most moral person involved in the entire mess, and she did not knowingly turn a blind eye to atrocity.  (Unknowingly is a different matter.)  She is in fact the only primary operator that can claim to be reasonably free of sin.   Lord knows Meredith, Orsino, and Anders can't.

Justice says in Awakenings "Apathy is a weakness". I'll quote Faithless here as well: "Inaction is a weapon of mass destruction."

Free of sin is one thing, but she was in a position of authority and therefore REQUIRED to act, in my opinion. There was a power vacuum, she was a centre of power. She could have done something. And yes, killing Meredith was ALWAYS an option!

[cglasgow]

The Grand Cleric was mistaken; Anders was insane; Orsino was evil, and Meredith was all of the above.

And what with all that, hating on the Grand Cleric just seems kind of pointless. The worst thing she's guilty of is an error in judgement; compared to the sheer flat-out mass murder everybody else was racking up (yes, even Orsino, he was deliberately helping Quentin the serial-killing jackass stay hidden from the authorities all along), I somehow don't see her as worth that much hate.

Modifié par cglasgow, 14 mars 2011 - 08:37 .

[Kattack]

I rather liked the Grand Cleric after she essentially put Meredith into a time out. She seemed like a reasonable enough woman, it simply came down to a matter of moral differences. I think she could have been persuaded, with enough evidence, to fire Meredith. Honestly, I think Anders was seriously stupid in choosing HER rather than Meredith when deciding who to bomb.

[Milana_Saros]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
You weren't put off by the fact that he lied to your PC about what he was planning?

Not trying to flame, just sincerely want to understand how people took that.  My mage romanced Fenris, but even though I'm curious about the Anders romance, I would find it hard to do it now that I know what's coming.

My PC wasn't.  As a player, I was a little miffed, but it was understandable.  My PC realized he was trying (however misguidedly) to protect her, and just sort of shook her head at him and called him an idiot.  It was pretty obvious that explosives ingredients don't go into a potion.

Of course, like I said, she would've helped him knowingly if he had told her, so...yeah.

This ^

I remember watching a YouTube vid where the player asks him why he didn't tell the PC about it and he said something on the lines of "I knew you would've tried to stop me...or even worse, want to help me."

And as far as Fenris goes...that romance isn't perfect either. Doesn't he like, leave you for several years after you two sleep together? He apologizes sure but I personally have a hard time trusting a person that has already bolted once. Anders did what he did but he never abandoned Hawke, quite the contrary, tried to protect her from the very thing he warned her about in the beginning of the relationship.

I don't know, it's hard. It's a freaking video game  I would never continue a relationship with a person who kills even one person IRL but blood flies in buckets when it comes to DA2.

[AloraKast]

My reaction was pretty much akin to most...

"WTF! Just... W.... T.... F! ANDERS, YOU TWIT!!!"

Especially considering my own bond and fondness for the character since Awakening. My first playthrough I was a femHawke archer rogue rivalmancing Fenris who always stood up for the mages and constantly argued with Fenris about it. Anders was a dear, dear, old friend to me and I was very much tempted to pursue a romance with him, alas my femHawke had other ideas (oh, I don't regret my choosing Fenris this time around, I had a lot of fun with him, even though I wish there was some more relationship development and interaction between Hawke and Fenris).

I was totally heartbroken by Anders's betrayal of my trust and really, really want an option of ***slapping him for it all the way to the Deep Roads and back. But... despite what he's done... I simply could not bring myself to execute him. I don't agree with his actions, nor do I condone them, but... I refuse to execute a friend, one that has been a companion to me since Awakening, simple as that.

It really peeved me off that no matter what I do, I will lose some companions. I mean, even Fenris stood by my side when I chose to protect the mages. Fenris, for crying out loud! He didn't agree with me but he stood with me, protecting that which he despised... for me! Plus, that hawt, hawt although brief scene and kiss in the Gallows *swoon* Whereas Sebastian... you twit, you were my companion through all of these years, I stood by you through thick and thin, don't turn your back on me, trust me now as you once did! Gha!!!

I really wish these choices weren't made for us, that my hand wasn't forced time and again in this game. All throughout the game we got the idea that Meredith was going bonkers and we all knew it was high time to shove that really big sword of hers up her ***. It seems to me that it could all have been much better handled, with Hawke deposing Meredith, as she clearly was the main tyrant in this story. The player could have been given the option of aiding the mages in deposing Meredith or enlisting the templars in the insurrection against Meredith. There was no need for the player's hand to be forced like that, especially with an act of horrible terrorism by a close and dear friend.

Ok, perhaps there needed to be a catalyst for this tamplars/mages war, as the mages have been treated rather horribly (but it was Meredith who was the tyrant here) but why did it have to be in such a way as to break my heart in two? I still plan on romancing Anders in another playthrough and expect that that experience will be even worse, since he not only betrays my trust as a dear friend, but betrays me as his love. And probably the only time I will allow Sebastian to execute Anders will be a previous save simply to experience that heart-wrenching moment. Sebastian, you... TWIT!!! Why can't you continue to respect my decisions, even though you do not agree with them?

Yeah, absolutely hate losing my party members...

[Sjofn]

Kattack wrote...
I kind of blame Justice though. It felt like what he wanted to do at the end of Awakening. Even though it was the Mother who had killed his body and the Mother who had been killing people, he REALLY didn't want me to leave the Architect alive. Like seriously, what did the Architect ever do to HIM?

The Architect made the Mother, for one. :innocent:

[Rinji the Bearded]

Sjofn wrote...

Kattack wrote...
I kind of blame Justice though. It felt like what he wanted to do at the end of Awakening. Even though it was the Mother who had killed his body and the Mother who had been killing people, he REALLY didn't want me to leave the Architect alive. Like seriously, what did the Architect ever do to HIM?

The Architect made the Mother, for one. :innocent:

Yes.  And the Architect's plans were messed up.  Sure, we can stop the Blights, but... sounded like he wanted to turn everyone into Darkspawn, too.

[FadeTheAssassin]

cglasgow wrote...

FadeTheAssassin wrote...

I also notice that you did not mention how YOU would feel in orsinos boots if you saw everyone you raised and cared about killed.

Orsino?  The guy who helped the serial killer that did up Mama Hawke like something out of Se7en?   The guy who admits to having helped conceal his crimes from the authorities?  (it's in the templar ending)

Why should I give the slightest damn about how Orsino feels?  Orsino's as much of a monster as Meredith.

...****. I hadnt played though the Templar ending. I thought he only knew about quentins research After hawke killed him. But still. He only turned int a harvester after seeing all his students dead.

[Rinji the Bearded]

FadeTheAssassin wrote...

cglasgow wrote...

FadeTheAssassin wrote...

I also notice that you did not mention how YOU would feel in orsinos boots if you saw everyone you raised and cared about killed.

Orsino?  The guy who helped the serial killer that did up Mama Hawke like something out of Se7en?   The guy who admits to having helped conceal his crimes from the authorities?  (it's in the templar ending)

Why should I give the slightest damn about how Orsino feels?  Orsino's as much of a monster as Meredith.

...****. I hadnt played though the Templar ending. I thought he only knew about quentins research After hawke killed him. But still. He only turned int a harvester after seeing all his students dead.

But you begin to wonder if Orsino would have been driven to such madness if the restrictions against mages weren't so great.  I kind of felt bad for him when he was asking why the Templars don't just drown them as infants (that was until he started talking crap about helping Quentin and I was like 'O HELL NAW.')  It's a real 'which came first, the chicken or the egg' kind of deal, I think.  Whole system is broken, IMO.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 14 mars 2011 - 04:25 .

[cglasgow]

FadeTheAssassin wrote...
He only turned into a harvester after seeing all his students dead.

He deliberately helped Quentin the serial killer hide from the authorities because of politics.   'If Meredith had known about him, she'd have just used that as an excuse to oppress us further!'

So, Orsino, you'll actually help cover up for blood mages because you don't want the political fallout?   Well, gee, that sure helps explain why Kirkwall was up to its arse in blood mages and abominations around every corner.  I'd been wondering!

So even if you didn't use blood magic yourself up until the end, you're still accomplice to all their crimes.   **** you ****ing dickbag **** of a First Enchanter.

And its not just Mama Hawke I'm that pissed off about; every other one of Quentin's victims had family too.

Modifié par cglasgow, 14 mars 2011 - 04:27 .

[FadeTheAssassin]

cglasgow wrote...

FadeTheAssassin wrote...
He only turned into a harvester after seeing all his students dead.

He deliberately helped Quentin the serial killer hide from the authorities because of politics.   'If Meredith had known about him, she'd have just used that as an excuse to oppress us further!'

So, Orsino, you'll actually help cover up for blood mages because you don't want the political fallout?   Well, gee, that sure helps explain why Kirkwall was up to its arse in blood mages and abominations around every corner.  I'd been wondering!

So even if you didn't use blood magic yourself up until the end, you're still accomplice to all their crimes.   **** you ****ing dickbag **** of a First Enchanter.

And its not just Mama Hawke I'm that pissed off about; every other one of Quentin's victims had family too.

Im not denying that Orsino was evil. What im saying is, he turned into a...Wait. How the **** did we go from what anders did to this whole be debate about mages?

[Taxistorm]

Well in my opinion I am glad Anders did it.

If he DOES do it and you side with the Templars, they continue with annulment through the circle, everyone sees they are dicks and the Circles break.

If he does it and you side with the mages, the circles break.

And you KNOW that if you waited, Meredith would've evoked annulment. Even if Anders didn't blow the Chantry to smithereens.

So it's either a bunch of Chantry people die or 90% of the mages in kirkwall die. (As opposed to the ones you save if you side with the mages.)

So Anders DOES save a lot of people, as long as you don't flop to the templars.

Sorry Chantry, not a fan of religion and I like mages so bye bye.
(I could be wrong, but that's what I've got from this.)

Anyways, when Anders first blew up the Chantry, I set down the controller, squeaked, clawed my face a bit, gaped and didn't touch the game for a good 15 minutes. I thought for sure he was going to commit suicide or turn into an abomination though so I was quite shocked with "BOOM".

[GunClubGirl]

I thought oh no this is only going to make things worse and give the mage haters more ammunition. And I thought it was morally disgraceful. But I also thought if you love somebody you accept them, flaws and all, and you forgive them, and I did. As for Sebastian, my response to him was two wrongs don't make a right. He wants to condemn killing with another killing? He's a hypocrite. I was sorry to lose him though.

[Bolboreta]

I don't think the Grand Cleric were such a nice person. I mean, she knew about Petrice and did nothing until she killed Seamus (was this his name?). She saw the templar oppression and mage's lobotomies. How could she approve that? The Chantry is responsible for the Templar Order and the Circle, so it has the duty of controlling both. It's not like a mother who cannot choose between her children, we're talking about torturing innocent people.

I really dislike that every mage seems to accept blood magic at the end, but I understand that it's a consequence of the oppression. If my life were in actual danger, I don't know what could I do.

Anders is maybe insane, maybe driven by Justice/Vengeance, but there was already a war and he freed tons of innocent people.

Modifié par Bolboreta, 14 mars 2011 - 05:20 .

[Bruddajakka]

I really wanted to kill Anders. But I didn't want to end up turning him into a Martyr for the Mages to rally around either. Last thing we need is another Andraste.