552 réponses à ce sujet

[Kemmer]

I sometimes feel like Anders uses Justice as an excuse. Justice was warped by *Anders* not the other way around. I think it would be a pretty interesting future storyline with a fugitive Anders in DA3 who splits from Justice/Vengeance, only to realize he's still as bitter and angry as before.

[cglasgow]

Well, as I just realized in another thread, when Anders went into his 'there are no noncombatants!' routine, that meant he was denying the very idea between guilt and innocence, as he placed no difference between the shedding of innocent blood and the killing of guilty men.

Which means that he was denying Justice, not upholding it, as Justice is all about innocent vs. guilty.

Vengeance, indeed.

[cglasgow]

Oh for... I just remembered something else.

The Gauntlet of the Sacred Ashes, from DA1.

Archon Hessarian: She wields the broken sword, and separates true kings from tyrants. Of what do I speak?
Answer: Mercy.
Archon Hessarian: Yes.  I could not bear the sight of Andraste's suffering, and mercy bade me end her life.  I am the penitent sinner, who shows compassion as he hopes that compassion will be shown to him.

Justice without mercy isn't true justice at all, merely...

Lady Vasilia: An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. The debt of blood must be paid in full. Of what do I speak?
Answer: Vengeance.
Lady Vasilia: Yes.  My husband Hessarian would have chosen a quick death for Andraste.  I made him swear that She would die publicly, with Her warleaders, that all would know the Imperium's strength.  I am justice.  I am vengeance.  Blood can only be repaid in blood.

... vengeance.

They were foreshadowing this all along.

Modifié par cglasgow, 14 mars 2011 - 09:49 .

[Addai]

Miri1984 wrote...

@Addai it IS terrorism, absolutely. But Anders doesn't see it that way - it's an act of war. I suppose all terrorists see it that way. Elthina was always going to be a target - that's why Sebastian is so desperate to get her out of the city.
It wasn't just Elthina he wanted dead though, the Chantry building ITSELF...He's targeting the symbol of power that controls the circles and the mages and the templars, making the statement that it has failed the people it needed to protect. And he wasn't randomly killing civilians left right and centre through the entire game, he knows it's wrong, and that's why he wants to die once it's done.

Yeah I'm sure every terrorist has justification and thinks they are acting on behalf of whatever people they claim to represent, and the innocents who get killed are the collateral damage.  He's still a suicide bomber in a public square.

I have a hard time reconciling it with the Anders who sounded so broken up over the misunderstanding with the Dalish in Awakening.

[cglasgow]

Exactly.

And as a note, collateral damage is "damage that is unintended or incidental to the intended outcome"(*). When your purpose was to toast the civilians, then the toasted civilians aren't 'collateral damage', they're exhibit A at your upcoming war crimes trial, should you live long enough to reach one.

(*) Before anyone claims that Anders' actual outcome was blahblah and the death toll merely incidental, ask yourself this question; would he have gotten the same result he wanted if he'd blown up an empty Chantry building?   Answer: nope, because the entire purpose was to create a gory massacre of the Chantry sisters, starting with Elthina on down.

Modifié par cglasgow, 14 mars 2011 - 10:11 .

[FadeTheAssassin]

cglasgow wrote...

Oh for... I just remembered something else.

The Gauntlet of the Sacred Ashes, from DA1.

Archon Hessarian: She wields the broken sword, and separates true kings from tyrants. Of what do I speak?
Answer: Mercy.
Archon Hessarian: Yes.  I could not bear the sight of Andraste's suffering, and mercy bade me end her life.  I am the penitent sinner, who shows compassion as he hopes that compassion will be shown to him.

Justice without mercy isn't true justice at all, merely...

Lady Vasilia: An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. The debt of blood must be paid in full. Of what do I speak?
Answer: Vengeance.
Lady Vasilia: Yes.  My husband Hessarian would have chosen a quick death for Andraste.  I made him swear that She would die publicly, with Her warleaders, that all would know the Imperium's strength.  I am justice.  I am vengeance.  Blood can only be repaid in blood.

... vengeance.

They were foreshadowing this all along.

...By the Creators... Your Right! 

Bioware are ninjas.

But in all seriousness. I never though... My god. Dude. You are a genius. No one else noticed that. Or...they have, but havent said it yet.

[PPF65]

In answer to the OP's question, I wanted to kill him, but at the same time that wouldn't solve anything, and he's the only one who comes close to the healing output of a spirit healer, so I kept him on. Then when Sebastian walked out, I wanted to kill him, but that wasn't an option.

I still sided with the mages after that, because it was Anders alone who did it and Meredith is a total f***ing psychopath who I really wanted to kill with some kind of cheap-shot right after declaring my allegiance to the mages (Oh murder knfie, where art thou at the times when your use would be most beneficial?)

[EvilEresh]

Addai67 wrote...
You weren't put off by the fact that he lied to your PC about what he was planning?

Not trying to flame, just sincerely want to understand how people took that.  My mage romanced Fenris, but even though I'm curious about the Anders romance, I would find it hard to do it now that I know what's coming.

That's the one thing that I was horribly angry about.  I wanted to punch him for that and kiss him for everything else.

[Miri1984]

cglasgow wrote...

Exactly.

And as a note, collateral damage is "damage that is unintended or incidental to the intended outcome"(*). When your purpose was to toast the civilians, then the toasted civilians aren't 'collateral damage', they're exhibit A at your upcoming war crimes trial, should you live long enough to reach one.

(*) Before anyone claims that Anders' actual outcome was blahblah and the death toll merely incidental, ask yourself this question; would he have gotten the same result he wanted if he'd blown up an empty Chantry building?   Answer: nope, because the entire purpose was to create a gory massacre of the Chantry sisters, starting with Elthina on down.

Absolutely not arguing with this. It was an appalling act. I think my stance is that it was an inevitable one. It doesn't mean I condone it. My HAWKE condones it, because she's a mage who's spent her entire life in hiding for something she couldn't help, watched countless mages being mistreated for an accident of birth and is pretty darn angry about it. I don't.

[GunClubGirl]

Miri1984 wrote...

Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

I love the range of responses everyone has to Anders's actions. We really wanted to create a situation without a clear-cut right and wrong. I wrote Anders, Sebastian, Bethany, Leandra, Elthina and Cullen, so I've certainly seen every side of the argument. Personally, my view of it is that Anders wants to blow up the Chantry AND wants to die for it -- that way he gets the revolution he/Justice believes is necessary, but still gives justice to those who died in the Chantry. Though I like the poetic justice of forcing him to live in the world his actions create.

Oh I absolutely agree that Anders wants to die. You wrote that beautifully - the giving away of his possessions made me cry. I was dead certain he was going to martyr himself and was desperately trying to think of a way to stop it. But I think my Hawke, apart from wanting him to live for her own personal reasons, also wanted him to SEE what he'd done. Even though she essentially agreed with him.

Gah, I knew you guys were going to put him through the wringer. Poor, cheerful, funny, flirty Anders. I mourn you. And your cat. :crying:

It never even entered my head the idea of him "wanting" to die. As for justice for the Chantry - those people are dead. They can't be helped now. The unselfish response he could have now, the justice, is to stay alive and help pick up the pieces, and not abandon the woman who loves him (at least in my case since he was my love interest). What about justice for the living? I didn't condone what he did but I accepted it and forgave him for it. I saw this situation, among other things, as a test of my love for Anders, and from that standpoint I felt if I truly loved him forgiveness was the only honorable response. And I don't buy into "an eye for an eye", either. Poor Anders, my favorite character in the game... I hope there is dlc to explore the idea of ridding him of Justice, who I believe holds a lot of responsibility for what happened. Maybe then he can be redeemed.

[tallon1982]

Anders = Anakin Skywalker anyone? lol

"You were the chosen one!" Sorry couldn't resist

[Reznore57]

I couldn't kill him.
When the chantry blows up , and he stand up and justify his acts , all i was thinking was "i'm so gonna kill you ,you fool"
Then you walk up to him and he accepts his fate , he knows what he has done , i can't understand how he came to the conclusion that it was the right thing to do.
But i saw a broken and desperate man , and i couldn't kill him.

[CardonT]

Anders is awesome. Blowing up the lying chantry is awesome. And he was right!

[EvilEresh]

Deztyn wrote...

In Fereldan the conflict was with a small number of blood mages who unleashed demons and deliberately created abombinations to take over the circle and the fairly reasonable Greagoir, who just didn't have the power to root out just the bad ones. And was more than willing to call it off once the also reasonable First Enchanter Irving was rescued. Ultimately what happened only affected the Circle and those in it, whether the Warden had the tower annuled or not.

If you talk to the mages and templars in Ferelden, you get a lot of background on the mage situation in Thedas.  "They must be controlled because they are too powerful."  In Ferelden, Greagoir would only call it off if you found Irving still "pure."  He gave you a task that he believed impossible.  

In Kirkwall, Blood mages and abominations really are everywhere, not just the poor oppressed mages in the circle. The bad templars are given free reign in their abuses. The Knight Commander is a nutcase. The First Enchanter is a Blood mage, and an accessory to your mother's murder. And the only reasonable person in a position of power got blown up.

How is it reasonable to sit and do nothing while the flames rise around you when you are the one person who can settle things?  She did nothing with the Qunari and she watched while the Templars and mages raged at each other, refusing to get involved.  She could have quieted Mother Petrice but she didn't.  She could have stepped in between Meredith and Orsinio earlier, but she chose to "trust in the Maker."  She chose to ignore this world for the next and that's where she ended up.

Which is pretty irrevelent anyway my point was an attempt at total revolution will not just affect the mages and templars but everyone in Thedas.  It's naive to think this is not going to cause bloodshed on a massive scale and in the end the world might not even be better for it.

So...  It's ok if mages can die (both physically or emotionally) at the whim of someone else as long as no one else in the world is hurt?  I understand quite well what bringing down the existing power structure means for Thedas.  That still doesn't make the Chantry's hold over mages (or the way they treat Templars, for that matter) right.  

[cglasgow]

EvilEresh wrote...

If you talk to the mages and templars in Ferelden, you get a lot of background on the mage situation in Thedas.  "They must be controlled because they are too powerful."  In Ferelden, Greagoir would only call it off if you found Irving still "pure."  He gave you a task that he believed impossible.

And yet he still gave it to you.

Greagoir did not have to let you into that tower, remember.  He'd already called down a Rite of Annulment; all he was doing was waiting for the reinforcements.  

Greagoir didn't have much hope that you'd be right, but he still wanted you to be right.   That's why he let you go in at all.   If he'd been all enthusiastic for the Rite, all he had to do was tell you to go **** off; he didn't need to play any games, he was in command of the site and you had no legal reason to be in there that he didn't choose to give you.

And even when Irving walked out and Greagoir had nothing but Irving's own word for it that he wasn't actually an abomination just hiding out in humanform like Uldred was, when Cullen was able to tell him about the whole ritual Irving was in specifically designed to taint him up... Greagoir still took Irving's word that he'd managed to resist entirely on faith.  Greagoir actually cancelled a Rite of Annulment halfway through, after he'd already gotten legal clearance, simply because a First Enchanter asked him please not to.

Why? 

Because when Greagoir said that the Rite of Annulment was a last resort, he meant it.  He wasn't looking for an excuse to do it; he was looking for excuses not to.   Even if it meant risking his own life by spending the next few months working in a tower with a guy who might be an abomination, because Greagoir is honest enough to not stick a sword in a guy's head for what he might do, only what he knows they did.

I entirely imagine this argument between Cullen and Greagoir in my head.

Cullen: 'You can't ask us to risk being locked in a tower with these things again!  We have to make sure now!'
Greagoir: 'I can entirely ask you to take that risk!  We're ****ing paid to take that risk!  Living with that risk is our job!  Mass exterminations just to make our lives a little easier  is not our job!'

So yeah, let's lay off Greagoir; the guy's one of the best non-dick templars we've ever seen.   

Modifié par cglasgow, 14 mars 2011 - 10:51 .

[CardonT]

By the way, why didn't I get the chance to kill Sebastian when he was demanding Anders' death and threatening me with his army?

[Addai]

GunClubGirl wrote...
It never even entered my head the idea of him "wanting" to die. As for justice for the Chantry - those people are dead. They can't be helped now. The unselfish response he could have now, the justice, is to stay alive and help pick up the pieces, and not abandon the woman who loves him (at least in my case since he was my love interest). What about justice for the living? I didn't condone what he did but I accepted it and forgave him for it. I saw this situation, among other things, as a test of my love for Anders, and from that standpoint I felt if I truly loved him forgiveness was the only honorable response. And I don't buy into "an eye for an eye", either. Poor Anders, my favorite character in the game... I hope there is dlc to explore the idea of ridding him of Justice, who I believe holds a lot of responsibility for what happened. Maybe then he can be redeemed.

I started out by killing him, not out of revenge but because he's an abomination that is clearly out of control- like so many other rogue mages my mage PC had tried to contain the whole game, except this time with powerful explosives.

I ended up reloading and sparing him because I thought he ought to fight the templars as long as my other companions were having to risk their lives to do so.  If I'd had the option, I would have executed him after the fight for reasons above.  I can't imagine forgiving or staying with him after that.  For all Hawke knows, he has another poop bomb ready to take out another city square.  If he could do it once, he could do it again, and who knows what Vengeance is going to suggest next time.

[TomY90]

TigerShinobi wrote...

I'm more worried about because it seems like you won't be able to keep Anders NOR Sebastian after the incident, if you chose to keep Anders, Sebastian goes "I shall take revenge on Kirkwall!" but i don't want to lose Anders just to keep Sebastian >.<

I would have killed anders if I could (do not get my wrong I really do like anders more than sebastian infact but he is he only mage that has the healing powers) 

and glad I did not kill him when i needed his powers a lot but just wish there was another mage with healing powers (the sister does not count) I would have more considering killing him.

[GunClubGirl]

CardonT wrote...

By the way, why didn't I get the chance to kill Sebastian when he was demanding Anders' death and threatening me with his army?

I agree. I liked Sebastian in this game but his reaction to this situation was totally hypocritical in my mind. He doesn't condone killing so he wants to kill someone? By his own argument maybe he needs to be taken out too, just sayin'... And no I wouldn't have done it but it would have been an interesting option to include. Even better, how about dialogue that reminds him he is condemning killing while demanding I kill someone, and the irony of that? Maybe then he could just back off, say "point well taken", and stay in the party.... or at least not threaten to come after us for revenge later.

[EvilEresh]

Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

I love the range of responses everyone has to Anders's actions. We really wanted to create a situation without a clear-cut right and wrong. I wrote Anders, Sebastian, Bethany, Leandra, Elthina and Cullen, so I've certainly seen every side of the argument. Personally, my view of it is that Anders wants to blow up the Chantry AND wants to die for it -- that way he gets the revolution he/Justice believes is necessary, but still gives justice to those who died in the Chantry. Though I like the poetic justice of forcing him to live in the world his actions create.

I wondered why he seemed upset at first when you don't kill him.  Where was the dialogue option to tell him he was my hero ?    I replayed that scene more times than I can count looking for something better than I didn't hate him.

[errant_knight]

GunClubGirl wrote...

CardonT wrote...

By the way, why didn't I get the chance to kill Sebastian when he was demanding Anders' death and threatening me with his army?

I agree. I liked Sebastian in this game but his reaction to this situation was totally hypocritical in my mind. He doesn't condone killing so he wants to kill someone? By his own argument maybe he needs to be taken out too, just sayin'... And no I wouldn't have done it but it would have been an interesting option to include. Even better, how about dialogue that reminds him he is condemning killing while demanding I kill someone, and the irony of that? Maybe then he could just back off, say "point well taken", and stay in the party.... or at least not threaten to come after us for revenge later.

So...did you guys totally not listen to what Sebastian said about hunting down his family's killers? He believes in execution for murder from the word go, and will go to great lengths to achieve it.

Modifié par errant_knight, 14 mars 2011 - 11:23 .

[EvilEresh]

Addai67 wrote...
But the Chantry also sees itself as protecting the innocent from the unbridled power of mages.

Regardless, blowing up a civilian landmark, a place with no military significance, where ordinary people come to pray and seek charity, and in a square where there might simply be passers-by doing their thing- in order to further a political cause- I don't see how that can't be called terrorism.

It's not a civilian landmark.  The Chantry controls the templars who control the mages.  If you have DA:O, talk to Alistair about his time training with the templars.  The Chantry uses lyrium to drug the templars and then controls them through their addiction.  When they're no longer useful because of the addiction (like Rodrick), they're retired and generally put to pasture with their addled brains.  Without being active in the templars, it's difficult or very expensive to get lyrium.  It's also illegal.  In order for a templar to continue receiving lyrium, they have to stay a templar.  There's a high drive to meet your quota of maleficar or else.  

[rak72]

Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

I love the range of responses everyone has to Anders's actions. We really wanted to create a situation without a clear-cut right and wrong. I wrote Anders, Sebastian, Bethany, Leandra, Elthina and Cullen, so I've certainly seen every side of the argument. Personally, my view of it is that Anders wants to blow up the Chantry AND wants to die for it -- that way he gets the revolution he/Justice believes is necessary, but still gives justice to those who died in the Chantry. Though I like the poetic justice of forcing him to live in the world his actions create.

So wanting to die for it makes it ok?  Does he have 72 virgins wating for him in the Golden City?

Modifié par rak72, 14 mars 2011 - 11:33 .

[cglasgow]

EvilEresh wrote...

It's not a civilian landmark.

It's a church.  People go to Mass in it.

Not to mention, its in the middle of town, and he took out an entire city block.  

IIRC, there was burning rubble landing as far away as the Docks, for God's sake!   Which is quite a trip when you're starting from Hightown!

Modifié par cglasgow, 14 mars 2011 - 11:50 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

CardonT wrote...

By the way, why didn't I get the chance to kill Sebastian when he was demanding Anders' death and threatening me with his army?

That...would've been nice.  And in my mind, that's probably exactly what my Hawke would've done in the middle of Seb's little revenge speech.  Either that, or she'd hunt him down herself afterwards.

Ah, well.  At least she and Anders are BOTH insane.  That makes it ok, right?