155 réponses à ce sujet

[DA Trap Star]

Personally I don't Mom's the waves, I just hate how they appear out of thin air with no warning.

I like it the way it is because I never feel overpowered like I did in origins. As soon as I start to feel my abilities are overpowered, that's when the game gets boring.

[moilami]

mythkandar wrote...

It seems like a lot of egos are being bruised by nightmare difficulty. I am in the process of uploading the Templar Battle (with an elite hunter assassin). No deaths, nightmare difficulty, slightly over 11 minutes with lots of pausing, and using every skill, poison, and potions that the game allows. The crying about nightmare getting truly obnoxious. Just because YOU cannot beat them does not mean the game is broken.

You have written good postings.

I myself cannot almost believe people complain "nightmare" is hard hard when none forces them to play on "nightmare".

People please don't complain "nightmare" is hard. There has to be difficulty levels other than "button masher".

[adversisingbs]

This game is a Lazy shadow of Origins 1. There are simply to many negatives to list. Way to many.

PS: If want to run around slaying demons in my bikini then I should be able too!!...

[Ixalmaris]

moilami wrote...

mythkandar wrote...

It seems like a lot of egos are being bruised by nightmare difficulty. I am in the process of uploading the Templar Battle (with an elite hunter assassin). No deaths, nightmare difficulty, slightly over 11 minutes with lots of pausing, and using every skill, poison, and potions that the game allows. The crying about nightmare getting truly obnoxious. Just because YOU cannot beat them does not mean the game is broken.

You have written good postings.

I myself cannot almost believe people complain "nightmare" is hard hard when none forces them to play on "nightmare".

People please don't complain "nightmare" is hard. There has to be difficulty levels other than "button masher".

People don't complain that nightmare is hard, people complain that nightmare is booring and frustrating as tactical play is not possible and thus you are left to memorize respawn points and hope for goor RNG results.
And even when you clearly winning a nightmare fight you still have to fight through multiple waves of the same enemy which, while not posing a threat, take ages to die.

tl;dr Nightmare is not hard, its boring.

[skan5]

soteria wrote...

Anymore, I think when people say something isn't tactical, they mean that it annoys them. Saying "waves aren't tactical" is inane (unless maybe you're trying to say they're strategic) because defeating multiple waves spawning in awkward locations requires a tactical response. I agree 100% that they're stupid at times and should have been implemented a lot more sparingly and with more common sense, but saying "they're not tactical [because I don't like them]" is just stupid.

I want to say "no, it isn't," but I can see what you're trying to say. The biggest issue I think that people have, is a lot of the times they just simply materialize out of thin air. Perhaps it would have been better for the waves to spawn off screen and have to actually move to the battle, which would allow a player to assess where they're actually comming from and react accordingly.

With this, "moving back to another zone" wouldn't be a workable tactic near 100% of the time, especially when that's exactly where they come from.

mythkandar wrote...

No, I don't think the spawns are lame. Without the spawn, there would be no nightmare difficulty. It's actually easier for them to come in waves rather than all at once. If Bioware threw 3 spawns at you all at once, you'd throw the keyboard or controller at the TV. The computer is stupid, people are smart. It needs all the advantage it can get. The computer also doesn't have the overpowered specialization and the CCC that the players have. We are actually at a advantage. If you play it right, you'd rip through each group of enemies. I look at each encounter as a puzzle that the players must figure out. That's why we play a tactical RPG in the first place right?

I also noticed that on Nightmare, not all enemies are at the same level as the player. If they enemy seems to have huge life bars, then chances are they're higher level. Go perform other quests, then come back and you'll find the enemy easier to kill. I think it may have something to do with resistence and the inability to hit him at lower levels.

Running away is not a bad tactic either. For non-boss fights, run away and fight in a strategic area. Divide and conquer. If you know it's an ambush zone, why fight in the zone? The art of the pull is as old as Baldur's Gate itself.

I actually wouldn't. There's been at least a few games where the enemies have vastly outnumbered you, but with all of them there, you could fully plan something out. But stuff like this would have to be tested for balance.

As I mentioned earlier in this post, the main issue, I think, is that they just go "Poof! I'm here now!" instead of actually comming from somewhere. If they did, I think it may be more accepted because you could guard and lay traps, even plan your own ambushes, and so forth. But as it is now, you look at a corner and there's no one there. Five seconds later, you look back to the same corner and now there's a mage and three archers. You kill the archers, turn around to the mage, and gasp:  Now there's five Templar guards and archers and an assassin. He would be quite the mage, but unfortunately it seems 4 out overy 5 fights go like this.

And you're right, pulling enemies back is an old, old mechanic that even exists in many MMOs and even some shooters. But are you really content with always going for the same strategy?

And I can't stress this enough: "I can't do it," isn't an issue.

[cyph]

[/quote]Man most people aren't complaining about the difficulty. It's just not fun having to use those tactics to win fights. Running around in circles kiting enemies while abilities refresh or to pull them to a choke point is a lame strategy. The A.I. doesn't have any abilities to counter this and can't react to when a player does this. They just chase you until you get around that corner and can unload all your aoe in a small area.
[/quote]

That's how the system is built. There's threat counter. It attacks the member with the most threat. You either use a skill to clear the threat or have another member attack it until the threats reassign. That's just how the system works. You're now complaining about the game rule? If you resort to that and it works, great. But there are more ways to beat than just have a guy chase you around. Tactical means to use your surroundings as well.

Tactics: the branch of military science dealing with detailed maneuvers to achieve objectives set by strategy

Yes, maneuvering around the area then AOE is a good tactic.

[/quote]
Once you get to like lvl 7-8 it gets a lot easier, but when you're lvl 2-3 and have 1-2 abilities it's annoying as hell, because it doesn't scale properly with your character's stats and abilities when they are low and they only have 1-2 abilities. I expect the game only gets easier and easier as you lvl up because of this lack of scaling. (only 10-15 hours in) [/quote]

Isn't that how RPG works? You start as a weakling and then get more powerful. If the enemies are too strong, do a different quest.

[/quote]
Here's another example. I fought and killed a Mature Dragon yesterday on my first try. Because the dragon is so slow I could have ran around to it's side attacked and moved away before it could attack me. I didn't do much of that because it's lame, but I technically could have beaten it like that. That kind of stuff is weak.
[/quote]

Most huge enemies hit hard and attack slow. This is the strategy to beat this boss. Move away when it attack and come back when it's done. Now you're complaining that that's the strategy to how you beat him? Tactics mean to maneuver around. Did you confuse this game with another one? 

[/quote]
Another thing about that fight was the dragon hit my warrior and knocked him down, and could hit again before my warrior had a chance to get him. He actually hit my warrior 3 or 4 times in a row almost killing him, but the dragon also had a second attack animation that was slower than the first, and gave my warrior time to get up and get out of there. The dragon should have killed my team but couldn't. The fights aren't hard at all. I could technically have the player with aggro run around with a boss's aggro while the other 3 dps it down.
[/quote]

That's probably how Bioware made it so you didn't get repeatedly beat down without a chance to get up. If they did that, you'd complain that the Dragon is so cheap that it kept staggering you until you die. Every enemy has an exploit for the player to defeat it. Otherwise, it wouldn't be a game.

Not directed at you per se, but I've seen people complain the game is too easy, too hard, assassiins too cheap, enemies too numerous, dragons too slow, boss impossible to kill, boss too easy, boss didn't kill party when should have, discovered tactics to beat boss too easily, etc. Wow, may I suggest everyone to stop playing this game and wait for the Witcher 2? =)

Modifié par mythkandar, 12 mars 2011 - 11:14 .

[DownyTif]

Kuro_Fenikkusu wrote...

I'm starting on nightmare and I've been playing for about 18 hours total, and I'm noticing something a bit frustrating and disappointing.  It seems that instead of improving the AI, tactics and just the enemies themselves Bioware decided the best way to make it harder was to supplmenet lackluster foes with sheer numbers.  In Origins, I'd die and go "Oh! I should've done that! Or why didn't I think to do this?"  In Dragon Age 2 its just overwhelming waves of enemies and after many hours of this it gets frustrating.  I'm wondering if it's just me?  I'd prefer to fight a few good challenging enemies rather than a ton of crappy ones who defeat me simply because they outlast me.

Oh no it's not just you. I really got frustrated today and I changed the difficulty to Hard. I'm not having fun on Nightmare, at all. I mean, when going into a rough battle in Origins, you could see the enemies (high survival skill) and plan. Now it's just: well let's go, we will see where the respawn occurs.. oh I died, well let's try again. Maybe if my Hawke was a warrior tank, but she is a Rogue (early game). And because there isn't a 2nd weapon set, I got tired of opening the inventory every battle to shift from bow to daggers (or the other way around). That would had allowed me to enter in ranged mode and shift to melee (to be able to use the abilities) afterward. A tactic I used all the time in Origins (with my rogue). But no, for some reason, that 2nd weapon set is gone.

So far in my game, I'm frustrated with this game (waves of enemies coming from nowhere). Maybe on hard I'll be able to like it. But that's just me, I read some people love Nightmare. For my first game, I don't.

Modifié par DownyTif, 12 mars 2011 - 11:33 .

[Edli]

mythkandar wrote...


Most huge enemies hit hard and attack slow. This is the strategy to beat this boss. Move away when it attack and come back when it's done. Now you're complaining that that's the strategy to how you beat him? Tactics mean to maneuver around. Did you confuse this game with another one? 

You're right, we confused it with DA:O. Foolish of us expecting the same kind of gameplay from a sequel. Did you ever play DA:O on PC in nightmare? The tactics you mention here are mostly twitch based that you find in action games. 

A typical hard fight in DA:O in PC for me would go like this. Open the door, pause, zoom out and look at all the enemies and possibly put some traps. This was the coming with a strategy part on how to handle and where to possition my party members. Consider it  like Magic the gathering but more action like. 

Of course that was not possible in the console version, that's why many who played it on 360 would not understand what we mean with tactical gameplay.

Modifié par Edli, 12 mars 2011 - 11:32 .

[Shirosaki17]

If a Dragon could attack you repeatedly before you get up it would be cheap and there would obviously be a balance issue. You think you should be able to run circles around enemies without them being able to hit you? These are exploits, and they are too numerous and make the game too easy. Each battle just takes a lot longer because of the extra health and resistances.

People want a challenge. For instance a mob could use abilities on other party members to damage or stun, instead of just on whoever has aggro.

It's pretty easy to hold aggro, but even then, enemies should be able to charge and not let you kite them or use ranged stun abilities to get in melee range. If there was actually any decent A.I. in this game or A.I. abilities, they wouldn't need to resort to something like knock downs on every attack. They could get rid of the entire fortitude concept, because it's a terrible gaming mechanic that adds a shadow of a challenge. They wouldn't need 20 mobs attacking you at once, or to spawn 10 mobs on top of you after you kill 10 mobs. With stronger A.I. and abilities/better mechanics they could make a more challenging game with fewer, higher quality mobs attacking you at once.

I don't mind using surroundings occasionally but let the A.I. react to it properly. Don't just have archers mindlessly funnel around a corner into melee range. If you like these kind of tactics I feel sorry for you, because they don't provide any challenge and make me feel dirty every time I have to resort to them. If you're stroking your ego or patting yourself on the back because you beat the game on Nightmare using these kind of tactics then I don't know what to say.

Modifié par Shirosaki17, 12 mars 2011 - 11:39 .

[vhatever]

I think it's pretty obvious the game lacked proper playtesting for nightmare mode. This is easilly apparent by how the game flucuates from fairly easy to nearly impossible without massive amounts of cheese and/or luck.

[RohanD]

 I've played and beaten a lot of hard games in my time. Games that require very quick reflexes, and actual skill to beat. Ninja gaidens, Onimushas, Shooters like Raiden, platformers like old school Castlevania etc., I grew up on instant death devastating knockback arcade games and computer games. I love them.

I've also played difficult tactical games, where you need to plan your strategy very well. 

I like a challenge, in fact for me it is needed in a game to make it interesting. But there is a huge difference between a challenge that is satisfying and one that is shallow. 

Hard for the sake of hard does not make it satisfying. It is not rewarding, it gives no sense of achievement, it is just boring and monotonous. 

Sure I could sit here and figure out some way to beat all those waves of enemies. But I am not inspired to do so, I just don't really care enough about it. 

The nightmare mode in this game is a rushed, tacked on, last minute bone thrown to the people who cried about FF not being in the game.

It is hollow, shallow and pointless. It is an example of poor programming.

And they did it perfectly. If people complain, they will come with the automatic defense "well it's Nightmare, it's supposed to be hard" and snicker. It's just an excuse not to put actual effort into this part of the game. 

[Achromatis]

I dont find Nightmare difficult, just longer and boring. I decided to leave it at Normal to actually have some fun.

It was the same in DAO, I dont see why everyone thinks it was any different or required much "tactic".

Edit: I know some people are going to want to burn me at the stake for saying this, but looking at almost any of the recent World of Warcraft bosses(and most trash for that matter) there are some great examples of difficulty that arnt based on inflated health pools.

Modifié par Achromatis, 12 mars 2011 - 11:48 .

[Edli]

Achromatis wrote...

I dont find Nightmare difficult, just longer and boring. I decided to leave it at Normal to actually have some fun.

It was the same in DAO, I dont see why everyone thinks it was any different or required much "tactic".

Depends on how and what platform you played it.

[Achromatis]

Edli wrote...


Depends on how and what platform you played it.

PC, both.

[Edli]

Achromatis wrote...

Edli wrote...


Depends on how and what platform you played it.

PC, both.

So you're saying you just spammed skills throughout the game in nightmare? The game started becoming less challenging only toward the end. Before that though I couldn't just rush through the room without a better planning. 

[Achromatis]

Edli wrote...
So you're saying you just spammed skills throughout the game in nightmare? The game started becoming less challenging only toward the end. Before that though I couldn't just rush through the room without a better planning. 

No but it doesnt require much planning. I played on Nightmare as a Templar PC so it made most of the difficult stuff(mages) a hell of a lot easier. I didnt do the AoE-bomb thing with 3 mages+force field or anything, but Ive got a few years of MMO raiding experience and DAO is really kinda easy compared to say... most encounters in WoW(the difficulty gets magnified because youre usually grouped with idiots too).

Then theres stuff like High Dragons... You only need to bring lots of potions and thats only because the fights last so much longer, usually. As far as strategy goes its "Maybe I should use one of those resist blams in my inv I usually just vendor on Normal mode".

Its just 90% dumb AI with a pool of attacks and spells to use, no real strategy. Like even having something basic like a Hurloc with a heavy shield that cant be damaged from the front, where you NEED to flank.

The other 10% is stuff like the Mother where all you do is go back and forth from killing adds/tentacles and hitting the boss.


Edit: One of the reasons I turned DA2 down to Normal was because I was getting tired of abusing poor AI and pathing(standing on a corner) and even when they spawn guys behind you, you just pause and move your mage and Varric(because Varric is awesome hes always in my party) to the other side. Which got old quick since EVERY fight is basically the same 3 waves of the exact same enemies just renamed.

Modifié par Achromatis, 13 mars 2011 - 12:24 .

[Preliatus]

DA:O nightmare is still harder than DA2 Nightmare. The game is more of a unchallenging breeze.

Now I'll refrain from posting, boot up my windows 95 VM and play some Kings Quest or some delicious Zork, or Ultima.

[Edli]

Achromatis wrote...

Edli wrote...
So you're saying you just spammed skills throughout the game in nightmare? The game started becoming less challenging only toward the end. Before that though I couldn't just rush through the room without a better planning. 

No but it doesnt require much planning. I played on Nightmare as a Templar PC so it made most of the difficult stuff(mages) a hell of a lot easier. I didnt do the AoE-bomb thing with 3 mages+force field or anything, but Ive got a few years of MMO raiding experience and DAO is really kinda easy compared to say... most encounters in WoW(the difficulty gets magnified because youre usually grouped with idiots too).

Mmos like wow have a different kind of difficulty in raids. It relies more on your reflexes and the party's performance. You would read in the forums the strategy to beat a boss or the raid leader would tell you and all you had to do is keep your mind in full alert.
DA:O is kinda different since you do not control only one char like in wow but a team of four. Reflexes are not needed since you have the pause button. As a game it tried to rely on planning, positioning and micromanaging the party members. I always considered it as a combination of heroes of might & magic combined with an action rpg.  It was not perfect though because of the inconsistency of the difficulty turning some battles into spam skills galore so I expected a better system from the sequel. Bioware just scraped the whole style and turned it into an action rpg though.

Modifié par Edli, 13 mars 2011 - 12:38 .

[cyph]

Preliatus wrote...

DA:O nightmare is still harder than DA2 Nightmare. The game is more of a unchallenging breeze.

Now I'll refrain from posting, boot up my windows 95 VM and play some Kings Quest or some delicious Zork, or Ultima.

Im pretty sure you didn't play DA2. DAO nightmare can be soloed easily.

[DownyTif]

RohanD wrote...

Sure I could sit here and figure out some way to beat all those waves of enemies. But I am not inspired to do so, I just don't really care enough about it. 

That's exactly how I feel too. So I went back to "Hard".

Achromatis wrote...
It was the same in DAO, I dont see why everyone thinks it was any different or required much "tactic".

Well, I'll speak for myself here. DAO Nightmare was really fun for me. I played hard on my first game, then nightmare on the next 2 and one of the reason I did it is not really to have stronger opponents, but to have to plan my attack. Throwing a fireball or any storm in a bunch of enemies with Morrigan, while Alister and Sten are in the middle of the rumble is devastating for my party with FF. On normal, well you just do it... I just though that it was more realistic on nightmare and it required me to use poison and balms a lot more. I felt I was really playing the game for what it was made for (my opinion again). In DA2 it's almost the same thing... but whoups, new opponents appear from nowhere... and again... and again... That's where my fun stops. So at least on hard, I can enjoy to use poisons, etc. and well I act like there is FF enabled (since, for some reason (?!?!) it's only on nightmare.

[vhatever]

mythkandar wrote...

Preliatus wrote...

DA:O nightmare is still harder than DA2 Nightmare. The game is more of a unchallenging breeze.

Now I'll refrain from posting, boot up my windows 95 VM and play some Kings Quest or some delicious Zork, or Ultima.

Im pretty sure you didn't play DA2. DAO nightmare can be soloed easily.

DAO could be solo'd on nightmare by classes that were retardedly overpowered  or grossly abused some machanics.

You havent said anything i this thread remotely useful or intelligent. Please try to do so in the future.

[cyph]

DAO could be soloed as a warrior, rogue, or mage. Try Youtube to see it yourself. Your belligerent tone is my cue to quit this thread.

[Nefarel]

Problem with nightmare is it is not hard. Once you know how to abuse poor AI you can easily kill any enemy. Taking aggro and running in a circle waiting for your dps to kill the boss. running away with the first wave just to not let second respawn etc. It requires no thinking. It's boring, not satisfying and due to huge amount of hp of enemies very time consuming.

Modifié par Nefarel, 14 mars 2011 - 08:27 .

[Earion-Lun]

it´s nightmare time¡¡¡¡¡

[Earion-Lun]

i known what you mean, it´s very frustating, but when you achieve your goal....buff it´s a beautiful relief¡¡