155 réponses à ce sujet

[SendarkCh]

DAO NM was incredibly satisfying. I still recall reading up strategy guides to turn Alistair into a proper tank, and watching the effort pay off. I remember doing the Circle questline first for the sake of Wynne (on that note, I still hate BioWare for only giving us one great healer in DAO - but that's besides the point).

But most importantly, DAO NM was satisfying because fights were controlled. Alistair would head in and establish initial aggro, while the rest of the team stayed back or CCed the rest. Then, when my rogue opened up, it was against targets that were already well under control. As a result, a wipe would only ever occur if:

1) I mismanaged my cooldowns
2) My DPS pulled too much aggro
3) I got target priorities wrong
4) My DPS focus was inadequate
5) My gear sucked
6) Alistair tanked too many mobs
7) I did not know the tactics

All of the above are something the player can easily influence and control - combat in DAO was actually pretty slow-paced. There was simply no way your ranged team would get in trouble unless it was a scripted event or Alistair failed at tanking.

DA2 NM? Waves spawn, ranged die, mobs running loose all over the place, tank is standing like an idiot with taunt and cooldown and no way to get snap aggro.

Fun - not.

Modifié par SendarkCh, 14 mars 2011 - 09:07 .

[Godeshus]

Forgive me if this is repetitive.

I actually found Nightmare to be easy in DA:O, and so far I'm enjoying the difficulty more in DA2, although I'm playing on hard not nightmare.

DA:O The reason I found it easy was that I'm not the kind of guy that drops fireballs at his own characters feet regardless of friendlyfire or not. I always play as if there is ff so switching to nightmare wasn't all that different for me. Also, I found the only thing that made it hard was the numbers...the numbers that were coming from everywhere else in the level. What I realized was that the first couple battles were tougher because some of the enemies from groups that were farther in the map would join in. Once those first couple battles were done then the rest of the level was just incredibly easy because it only had half the enemies, or less, in it than it should have. I think I actually found Nightmare to be easier than normal.

I like battle in DA2 better. You can't just rush in and pot spam when you get in trouble. You gotta really pick your targets intelligently and be ready to run away if you have to. Whenever I enter a battle I always make sure I have at least 1 escape route. I've been studying the maps so that I can determine the best choke points to draw enemies into and this has been really helpful. The waves aren't as overwhelming either if you run away from the spawning points.

[mrhateful]

The problem for me was that I neither liked Carved, Avaline and Anders.. Bang no healers/tanks so combat would become ridicules aoe spam having to go constitution on almost all of my chars just to survive a rogue backstab, which was insanely overpowered and not fun since you had no way of preventing it(unless your a force mage, which i had to become)

[rrodr307]

Cyocide wrote...

"Oh! I should've done that! Or why didn't I think to do this?"

The same thing occurs in DA2. "Oh! I should have fallen back when they sent another wave at me. There's some stairs back there with a chokepoint and a nice view of the poor saps below."

Re-enforcements are a reality in games and in real combat, so when they come, you'd better have a backup plan. =P

And the beauty with DA2 is that if you get away from an attack (i.e. hulking longsword), by moving quickly out of the way, you won't be hit. In DA:O, you could be running away and an enemy can hit you without the weapon actually touching. I enjoy DA2's fluid combat, because now with my rogue I can be quick and sneaky, and move out of the way when I need to. 

[pezit]

RohanD wrote...

 I've played and beaten a lot of hard games in my time. Games that require very quick reflexes, and actual skill to beat. Ninja gaidens, Onimushas, Shooters like Raiden, platformers like old school Castlevania etc., I grew up on instant death devastating knockback arcade games and computer games. I love them.

I've also played difficult tactical games, where you need to plan your strategy very well. 

I like a challenge, in fact for me it is needed in a game to make it interesting. But there is a huge difference between a challenge that is satisfying and one that is shallow. 

Hard for the sake of hard does not make it satisfying. It is not rewarding, it gives no sense of achievement, it is just boring and monotonous. 

Sure I could sit here and figure out some way to beat all those waves of enemies. But I am not inspired to do so, I just don't really care enough about it. 

The nightmare mode in this game is a rushed, tacked on, last minute bone thrown to the people who cried about FF not being in the game.

It is hollow, shallow and pointless. It is an example of poor programming.

And they did it perfectly. If people complain, they will come with the automatic defense "well it's Nightmare, it's supposed to be hard" and snicker. It's just an excuse not to put actual effort into this part of the game. 

Yeah this is pretty much exactly my thoughts on this topic, at first i loved how hard it was but pretty soon i noticed it was pretty tacked on and not well done at all.

[AkiKishi]

There are so many different builds , party make-up's etc. That there is no standard to judge nightmare from. If you want something more "objective" post a set build and let people run it through the maze, then compare the result.

Example I went from Rogue to 2h warrior and 2h warrior makes it even easier. Though I could not imagine it without Anders.

For me the wave design makes it more tedious than difficult, less so with a 2h warrior it must be said.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 14 mars 2011 - 10:17 .

[pezit]

I first tried the game as a mage but all CC were shortened by a huge amount on NM, and most enemies were immune to some element and it didn't work out well at all.

As archer i managed fine but as previous complaints i had to "cheese" most hard encounters by kiting a lot, CC barely works since it's shortened by a lot in NM, barely worth using those skills. I didn't use Anders at all, just had a my sister as a buff bot with group arcane shield, elemental weapons, haste, heal and the upgraded aura. Every fights difficulty depended on who the enemy assassin backstabbed and how many enemy archers there were.

How do i want nightmare to work? I want it to require planning, having to equip my party members with fire resistance before engaging a dragon, having to use traps, potions, bombs and poisons to manage encounters, having to use CC on the correct targets (not reduce their effectiveness) and planning all the characters skill builds to have a good synergy. Not having to micro every movement to kite the melee enemies so they miss every attack by abusing their slow animations or having to run away cause enemies spawn all around me and if they target my mage (s)he instantly dies.

[Cowboy_christo]

Haha i read a few post then skipped trough by reading in diagonal. Yall moron if you complain about nightmare. DAO nightmare mode was so eaz that mod was needed to make it harder and evne then it was still eazypeazy. Atleast nightmare of DA2 is somewhat challenging. K you reload a few time but then you get used to itand improve every fight.

BTW 1 tips to the ppl who find friedrich hard. There are some ppl ready to help you nearby if you catch my drift.

Also number 1 strategy is split them up so the reinforcement doesnt come mess you up. Map is usually big enough for you to take the first ppl away from whereever reinforcement will spawn.

Modifié par Cowboy_christo, 14 mars 2011 - 10:48 .

[Nogthwai]

Really, there wasn't any tactical combat in Dragon Age Origins. Nightmare becomes very very easy after you managed to gain your first few levels; I was able to play Awakening without pausing the game much. Most of the "tactical" gadgets in DAO were useless, you never had to use traps or poisons in order to win a fight; in the end you could just kill one enemy after the other and spam healing in between. Many shiny buttons you can press != deep strategy. Once you had a working party in DAO you never had to change your strategy and all you had to do is spam heal and kite if a wrong char managed to get aggro.  

One problem that DAO had was poor internal balance; so some class combinations are way overpowered (I started as a warrior, completed the game and then started thinking about a backstab rogue, wihtout even knowing what I'd get myself into:P) and as a direct result the game become so easy that it was not very challenging any more. I can only imagine what someone must have felt after palying a fully kited out Arcane Warrior . You didn't even have to micromanage most fights in DAO. Also, Nightmare doesn't scale very well in DAO, the game becomes easier as you progress; which is not very rewarding for the player. (Oh, I was able to kill the Archdemon on the fly, but I died to some guars when I was level 2 .)

Now, DA2 seems quite hard at the beginning (only 25 hours in, in Act 2) but so far I'm happy with nightmare because I can actually die (and I'm not an exceptionally good player or something...) when I make errors. Of course you need this "human wave" concept else you'd AoE all enemies present wihtout every having to worry about your ranged dps classes actually pulling aggro. Sure, Nightmare can be frustrating, but it wasn't meant to be easy (and in DAO it was...).

Modifié par Nogthwai, 14 mars 2011 - 11:34 .

[Nefarel]

rrodr307 wrote...
And the beauty with DA2 is that if you get away from an attack (i.e. hulking longsword), by moving quickly out of the way, you won't be hit. In DA:O, you could be running away and an enemy can hit you without the weapon actually touching. I enjoy DA2's fluid combat, because now with my rogue I can be quick and sneaky, and move out of the way when I need to.

In DA2 there are still situations when you will be hit by enemy without the weapon actually touching you. Whoever tried to dodge assassin backstab knows that.

[Chromie]

SendarkCh wrote...

DAO NM was incredibly satisfying. I still recall reading up strategy guides to turn Alistair into a proper tank, and watching the effort pay off. I remember doing the Circle questline first for the sake of Wynne (on that note, I still hate BioWare for only giving us one great healer in DAO - but that's besides the point).


Fun - not.

Ha ha...that's funny. Proper tank needed for Origins nightmare good joke. My Arcane Warrior/Spirit Healer mage was so OP I didn't need a competent group let alone pause and play. Origins was really to easy and talents really sucked. Combat in DA 2 is superior in every way stop lying to yourself and saying it was more tactical in Origins. I could play Nightmare in Origins with out paying attention DA2 I have to use CC, be cautios of my Aoe's manage my healing because 1 minute for a heal really makes it difficult to stay alive and much more enjoyable.


Mages clearly the most OP class. Able to heal, CC everything and add really powerful debuffs and snare to your hearts content. It really was too simple before.

Rogue Archers were really just way too powerful sure it took time for it to be OP. But after getting a couple of +speed gear and good attack all I did was have Shale and a bunch of sustained abilities and every auto attack was basically a crit hitting for 300 damage and in Awakening it was even more powerful with Accuracy!

Warriors were the weakest imo unless if you went Rogue with Spirit Warrior. Everything would die simple as that 700+ damage 100% crits.

To say Origins was difficult and balanced is a joke.

Don't believe watch these youtube videos.

900+ crit Spirit Warrior/Archer
Nightmare Rogur Archer SOLOS everything <--- really? tactical no
Mage?Arcane Warrior solos High Dragon

How is combat in Origins difficult? IF you found it hard you just suck. You can solo a lot of the content with a group of four it's just boring and easy.

Modifié par Ringo12, 14 mars 2011 - 12:06 .

[Hinso_Inferno]

The enemies phasing into existence out of nowhere during combat when they realistically shouldn't have even been there is a killer for both immersion and fun :/

[_Infiltrator]

"Oh, I should have anticipated X enemy spawns after Y waves in Z location"

Fun times.

[thistlechaser]

Each to his own finding a fun challenge I guess. For me it is putting the game on hard, never pausing, and never switching from my main character in battle.

The challenge is thinking and refining my party tactics so in GENERAL they don't pull too much aggro early. They work on saving stuns and taunts till the healer is being attacked. My character is a rogue and I don't just rush in and button mash. I hang back, do a little crowd control, snipe a target, and then go save the healer. Again no pausing.

I know it is not micromanaging every detail of the battle like some of you are hoping for, but I am having a riot. The battles are absolute chaos, but overall the party's general game plan shines through the mess. Then between battles I'll think of a slight modification in tactics that might help just a little more.

As far as the random spawns go I battle where the battle unfolds and the spawns don't seem to just "pop out of nowhere". They come around corners, behind you, all kinds of random that you might expect from a real fight.

For me the game is also far more immersive without pause, think, pause, reload, etc... There is no flow to the world if it has been two hours since the last dialog because you had to reload a nightmare battle 17 times just for the sake of beating the game on the hardest level.

It is a role playing game, so role play real battles that don't have pausing and every little detail perfected. Great generals have never had all the answers mid fight, they just prepare beforehand for the worst and then improvise.

I guess in general I don't try and mold the game to a specific expectation. I start the game then find a fun way to play. If I want a specific kind of challenge like pause tactical combat I'll go find a game that has a great system for pause tactical combat.

[vhatever]

Infiltrator wrote...

"Oh, I should have anticipated X enemy spawns after Y waves in Z location"

Fun times.

i think it's pretty fair game if -- it's like an end boss encounter of a mission and he is in his stronghold or what have you, if you are dealing with fade creatures, or if you are dealing with the undead. 

Anywhere else the whole bandits repelling down the side of buildings and parachuting in from helicopters is pretty ridiculous.

[AkiKishi]

vhatever wrote...
i think it's pretty fair game if -- it's like an end boss encounter of a mission and he is in his stronghold or what have you, if you are dealing with fade creatures, or if you are dealing with the undead. 

Anywhere else the whole bandits repelling down the side of buildings and parachuting in from helicopters is pretty ridiculous.

Even that pales besides the slavers in full armour with tower shields who spawn right on top of you.

It's just cheap and lazy.

[vhatever]

BobSmith101 wrote...

vhatever wrote...
i think it's pretty fair game if -- it's like an end boss encounter of a mission and he is in his stronghold or what have you, if you are dealing with fade creatures, or if you are dealing with the undead. 

Anywhere else the whole bandits repelling down the side of buildings and parachuting in from helicopters is pretty ridiculous.

Even that pales besides the slavers in full armour with tower shields who spawn right on top of you.

It's just cheap and lazy.

It's kinda funny because in the game there is a book that talks about the limits of magic and that you cannot via magic teleport from point a to point b. Must have been a satirical comedy.

[mandela9000]

Anyone playing on Nightmare should stop complaining. It's quite obvious that this game was not designed to be played on that difficulty so accept it and play it on your own risk or just go Normal/Hard and play like it was supposed to be played.

[Darji]

Guys the problem with nightmare is that it indeed feels rushed and made with no thought at all. Only because you die moe doesnt mean its more tactical. If you die in DA2 on nightmare its mostly because of the cheap invisible spawns and not because you made a tactical error or so,

Another sign for this is the number of enemies you are facing in each encounter. Instead of having less enemies that are actually play tactical and use there skills right, they throw more at you. Again that is not a sign oof tactical gameplay but rather of the lazyness of the developer.

[Nogthwai]

Darji wrote...

Guys the problem with nightmare is that it indeed feels rushed and made with no thought at all. Only because you die moe doesnt mean its more tactical. If you die in DA2 on nightmare its mostly because of the cheap invisible spawns and not because you made a tactical error or so,

Another sign for this is the number of enemies you are facing in each encounter. Instead of having less enemies that are actually play tactical and use there skills right, they throw more at you. Again that is not a sign oof tactical gameplay but rather of the lazyness of the developer.

How is this different from DA:O? In DA:O you had to work to die anyway, if you don't die what's the point of having a tactical approach at all? People make so much assumptions about DA:O but the gameplay of Origins was not that good and did not require any special tactics, it was rather simplistic once you had it figured out. The wave concept in DA2 is needed since they learned the lessons from DA:O and decided to make AoE less powerfull.

If you have less enemies, you'd just have to make them immune to all CC, else you wouldn't be fighting at all (= mass CC AoE lock from origins, hello Mages) and if they did that most of the CC skills would be labeled useless anyway and the outcry would be great as well, since it would also be a cheap way to make the game harder; increasing the health across the band would not make the game noticably harder, but longer.   

[Darji]

Nogthwai wrote...

Darji wrote...

Guys the problem with nightmare is that it indeed feels rushed and made with no thought at all. Only because you die moe doesnt mean its more tactical. If you die in DA2 on nightmare its mostly because of the cheap invisible spawns and not because you made a tactical error or so,

Another sign for this is the number of enemies you are facing in each encounter. Instead of having less enemies that are actually play tactical and use there skills right, they throw more at you. Again that is not a sign oof tactical gameplay but rather of the lazyness of the developer.

How is this different from DA:O? In DA:O you had to work to die anyway, if you don't die what's the point of having a tactical approach at all? People make so much assumptions about DA:O but the gameplay of Origins was not that good and did not require any special tactics, it was rather simplistic once you had it figured out. The wave concept in DA2 is needed since they learned the lessons from DA:O and decided to make AoE less powerfull.

If you have less enemies, you'd just have to make them immune to all CC, else you wouldn't be fighting at all (= mass CC AoE lock from origins, hello Mages) and if they did that most of the CC skills would be labeled useless anyway and the outcry would be great as well, since it would also be a cheap way to make the game harder; increasing the health across the band would not make the game noticably harder, but longer.   

You die in Origins not because of cheap spawns but rather if your attack went wrong. In DA2 you only die because in your first encounter the new spawns messed your tactic up. Every first encounter in DA2 is practically a guessing game where the new wave will spawn.  In Origins you had no wave of enmies so it all depended on your own strategy. And yes it was easier because of the isometric view and because you actually could play tactically.

In DA2 its hard because of the much much faster combat and again these spawns and not because its well balanced and difficult. Also AOE spells in DA2 are very powerful but due to the fact that for example rogues are pure killermachines its not that noticealble. Instead of balancing the classes and the actual combat they just gave them more devasting skills because it looks way more awesome than actual tactical use of your chars. Also in Origins each class had a meaning. and a special use Thats almost not given in DA2 because you need to **** constantly your positions and it doesnt even matter if you are a mage, Rogue or Warrior. They are just damagedealers overall.

[Mage One]

Personally, I like nightmare in DA2 much more than I did in DA:O. In DA:O, for all the talk of strategy, there was no strategic change to combat in nightmare. It was harder to hit enemies with more hit points who had higher resistances and did more damage. That was about it, and after a while, you win most fights by stacking the right skills and equipment to significantly out DPS enemies. I could control most fights easily, and I generally considered a fight a moral defeat if I had to use a consumable. There were only a couple fights that were actually hard, and most of those were end-game fights that had re-enforcements coming in mid-fight. (You may not remember, but they did do that in the last area.)

In DA2, everything is a lot harder in nightmare. Assassins can steal your potions and drink them to restore health. Enemy leaders can redirect aggro onto anyone they want. These changes are part of a difficulty that doesn't rely on padding enemies stats. They require you to be prepared for a fight where you have to plan ahead more, especially because, as is reasonable when fighting a gang in their base, for example, you don't know how many you're up against. Do enemies pop out of unlikely places? Yes, but that's forgivable if it gives me a fight where if I'm not careful, if I act as though victory is at hand before the fight's over, I can completely loose control of the fight in a matter of seconds. Despite all the claims of fights not being as strategic in DA2, I find to survive, I have to think ahead far more than I had to in DA:O, and to me, that means the combat has not been dumbed down.

Modifié par Mage One, 15 mars 2011 - 01:24 .

[TcheQ]

It's not just you, I played nightmare mage in DAO and DA2. DAO game took me 59 hrs of total playtime to finish. Getting out of kirkwall in DA2 took 35hours alone. I take advantage of enemy attack patterns, and my entire team would die to a single assassin. I do find it a bit tedious to kill a dragon for 40 minutes - I simply will not play DA2 a second time, whereas DAO had enough intrigue and was easy enough on Nightmare to want to play through 3 times. I don't respec and I have denied myself all advantages of DLC. I also rarely heal and my party is constantly 20% of their health from injuries. I'm not a fan of loading from a previous save if i discover an enemy is unkillable. Rock Wraith completely --cked me going in blind. I conceded it was impossible (my team had no protection from it's attacks, and were all injured) and just continued.

I finished Batman on hardest setting and it only took me 20hrs (I almost quit that in some parts it was so difficult). Now I'm barely even through my second Kirkwall year and it's 44hrs in. That's what I paid for though. The solution to stopping Assassin's stealing healing potions is simple - don't carry any

[Shirosaki17]

Cowboy_christo wrote...
BTW 1 tips to the ppl who find friedrich hard. There are some ppl ready to help you nearby if you catch my drift.

Meh I figured that out but it's too cheap and doesn't make any sense they they would help you and you wouldn't get in trouble, since you attacked Friedrich..

I also tried that second strategy because the adds don't come if you don't kill any of the first mobs but Freidrich appeared to be hitting too hard for it to make a difference, or perhaps my 2h warrior was doing all the damage ot Aveline. I didn't realize mighty blows range could hit people right beside you until a bit later.

I just dodged his attack and countered and then moved out of the way when he attacked. Just takes forever though and is basically like kiting in this type of game. Split might work though.

Modifié par Shirosaki17, 15 mars 2011 - 04:16 .

[oldmansavage]

I dunno I thought the combat on nightmare was pretty easy.  You just use God of War tactics.  Part way through the game I was kind of wishing they would replace Hawke with Kratos.  Better dialogue and voice acting at least.  Maybe a few finishing moves when the enemy's health is getting low?  Make it happen bioware.