543 réponses à ce sujet

[cglasgow]

The Circle mages dealt with the Qunari during the New Exalted Marches and were the greatest advantage the Chantry forces had, so I'm not worried.

Yes, and now you're saying that they'd get to do it again with the Circles all bloodied and weary from just coming out of a horrible war, and with no legions of Chantry soldiers backing them up this time.

I'm sure they'll be fine!

The qunari were only beaten when everyone came together to stop them; mages, templars, Chantry, secular rulers, and common folk all alike.   Yeah, well, after Anders' civil war is finally over, at least half of 'everyone' is going to be dead no matter which side wins, and the other half will be friggin' exhausted.

The math is obvious.

PS: These lands of 'free mages' exist only in your head.  The ending of DA2 tells us that the Circles of 'every other land' rose up 'against the templars'.   If these lands had Circles and templars, then the mages weren't free!

The only land we know of that has a Circle but no templars is Tevinter.   And Fenris has told us aaaaaaaalll about Tevinter.

Modifié par cglasgow, 13 mars 2011 - 08:44 .

[genesisw]

cglasgow wrote...

PS: These lands of 'free mages' exist only in your head.  The ending of DA2 tells us that the Circles of 'every other land' rose up 'against the templars'.   If these lands had Circles and templars, then the mages weren't free!

The only land we know of that has a Circle but no templars is Tevinter.   And Fenris has told us aaaaaaaalll about Tevinter.

Actually there are free mages and no templars in Rivain.  There's even Quinari there and the land seems to get along just fine.

[_purifico_]

I let him stay in my first playthough. But now that I have Sebastian around, I will probably shoo him away. Or kill him - haven't decided yet.

[Arppis]

sonofalich wrote...

i felt angry at being used by him, although i did have some suspicion he planted a bomb or something in there, so despite what Merrill told me i stabbed the fool in the back like he deserved. i was always going to choose the mages but Anders' terrorist act made me think twice.

The thing people seem not to realize, is the fact that not every mage is the same as Anders. So I seem that it's pointless to blame it on mages when one person did what he did.

Just because a person who owns a gun shoots someone, doesn't mean rest of them are going to do that. But I guess Templars just needed an excuse to act.

[Maria Caliban]

cglasgow wrote...

Ever heard of something called 'the fallacy of the excluded middle'?

Thematically speaking, there is no middle ground. Dragon Age II is a work of fiction specifically made to have no viable middle ground.

Arppis wrote...

Just because a person who owns a gun shoots someone, doesn't mean rest of them are going to do that. But I guess Templars just needed an excuse to act.

In the US, if you are an epileptic, you cannot drive a car. No one has an epileptic seizure because they're a bad person but because of that possible loss of control, letting them drive a car is too dangerous.

You don't have to be a bad person for a demon to possess you. You can be kind, loving, and nice, but if a demon takes control of you, you'll go on a murderous rampage.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 13 mars 2011 - 08:59 .

[cglasgow]

genesisw wrote...

Actually there are free mages and no templars in Rivain.

The human population of Rivain are human followers of the Qun, like the elven converts in Kirkwall.   And we know what the Qun says about mages.

So please, point me to a canon source that says the mages in Rivain are free.   Free of the Chantry, yes... but the qunari are worse!

Modifié par cglasgow, 13 mars 2011 - 08:56 .

[TJPags]

genesisw wrote...

cglasgow wrote...

PS: These lands of 'free mages' exist only in your head.  The ending of DA2 tells us that the Circles of 'every other land' rose up 'against the templars'.   If these lands had Circles and templars, then the mages weren't free!

The only land we know of that has a Circle but no templars is Tevinter.   And Fenris has told us aaaaaaaalll about Tevinter.

Actually there are free mages and no templars in Rivain.  There's even Quinari there and the land seems to get along just fine.

Yes, Rivain follows the Qun.

Which, you know, places mages in actual chains, sews their lips shut, and all that.

[cglasgow]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Thematically speaking, there is no middle ground. Dragon Age II is a work of fiction specifically made to have no viable middle ground.

Actually, Dragon Age II is a work of fiction specifically made so that both extremes are wrong.   The First Enchanter turns out to be as much of a corrupt lunatic as Meredith is.   Neither side is right.

The middle ground, as personified by the Grand Cleric, is the only place a reasonable human would want to stand.    Granted, Anders then friggin' nukes it, but that's not the game saying 'The middle ground was wrong!', that's the game saying 'The tragedy is, a ****ing lunatic took away the last chance for peace.  Now your only choices are between two different flavors of suck.'

[genesisw]

cglasgow wrote...

genesisw wrote...

Actually there are free mages and no templars in Rivain.

The human population of Rivain are human followers of the Qun, like the elven converts in Kirkwall.   And we know what the Qun says about mages.

So please, point me to a canon source that says the mages in Rivain are free.   Free of the Chantry, yes... but the qunari are worse!

Nowhere in my travels, not in the heart of the Imperium nor the streets of Orzammar, have I felt so much an outsider as in Rivain.
The Chant of Light never truly reached the ears of these people. The years they spent under the thumb of the qunari
left most of the country zealous followers of the Qun. But resistance
to the Chant goes deeper than the Qunari War. The Rivaini refuse to be
parted from their seers, wise women who are in fact hedge mages, communicating with spirits and actually allowing themselves to become possessed. The Chantry prohibition against such magical practices violates millennia of local tradition.

--From In Pursuit of Knowledge: The Travels of A Chantry Scholar, by Brother Genitivi.

[cglasgow]

And... this proves that they live free of the Qun how?

It confirms only two things: 1) Rivaini culture is based on the Qun  2) Rivaini culture says 'screw you' to the Chantry policy on mages.

Yeah, well, the qunari say 'screw you' to the Chantry policy on mages; its just, the qunari policies are worse.

The qunari are perfectly happy to use their Saarebas, as we see in DA2. They just use them with their mouths sewn shut and dragged around by handlers on chains, and killed the instant any of them is suspected of 'contamination'.

If Rivain follows the Qun, it follows nigh-inevitably that the same is done to Rivaini mages. Because the Qun is the Qun. It is inflexible in the extreme. Your role is chosen for you, and your only allowable choice is to accept it and succeed, or to deny it and fail.

So yeah, I see no freedom here.    There is no freedom under the Qun.   'No Chantry' is not the same thing as 'No masters'.

Modifié par cglasgow, 13 mars 2011 - 09:08 .

[Maria Caliban]

cglasgow wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Thematically speaking, there is no middle ground. Dragon Age II is a work of fiction specifically made to have no viable middle ground.

Actually, Dragon Age II is a work of fiction specifically made so that both extremes are wrong.

That's not an argument against what I said.

Maria: Cats have fur.
cglasgow: Actually, cats have skin.

cglasgow wrote...

The middle ground, as personified by the Grand Cleric, is the only place a reasonable human would want to stand.

If you stand with the Grand Cleric, you get blown up in an explosion.

cglasgow wrote...

that's not the game saying 'The middle ground was wrong!', that's the game saying 'The tragedy is, a ****ing lunatic took away the last chance for peace.  Now your only choices are between two different flavors of suck.'=

Actually, it's the game saying 'the middle ground is not an option.'

Please recall that if Anders hadn't blown up the Chantry, there's still the Divine planning an Exalted March on the city.

Your Champion can run around shouting "Can't we all just get along?" all she wants, but the game will always answer "No, we can't," and you have to pick.

[Darkannex]

May I also add that in DA2, a demon posessed a non mage? I guess we need to lock everyone up now.

[Red Templar]

Couldn't kill Anders fast enough. Would have killed him if I could have when he lied to me and tried to get me to help him sneak into the chantry.

I love to hate the character. He's a great character and I love his writing, but he's such a complete moral failure and selfish douche that I took more pleasure in killing him than I expected. Ignoring his Grey Warden calling, murdering his fellow Wardens in an abomination rage, and having the gall to preach his way through the entire game while being a worse evil than Meredith.... it all made knifing the bastard a long time coming. At least Meredith has the INSANITY! defense. Anders schemed, lied, murdered, and turned terrorist with the express intent of derailing any hope for peace and reconcilation in favour of a giant bloodbath. He's the worst monster in the game, and has me seeing characters like Loghain and the Architect much more positively when I consider them in juxtaposition to him.

So yeah, perfect timing, Anders.  Even if by some total
miracle the mages win, the qunari will just roll over the remnants
anyway once the lands are exhausted by war.   So when all your mage
cousins are busy locked in slave collars with their tongues cut out,
they can thank Anders, the Great Mage Hero of "Freedom".

Very much this. The mess that Anders made is the worst possible thing for mages in Thedas. As we've seen in Kirkwall, when mages fight for their freedom, they indulge on mass in the worst sorts of blood magic. Going into a full scale war will only escalate the corruption and madness of mages, and common people will only hate and fear mages all the more.  There's no way the mages can win any meaningful victory without tapping into some really bad stuff; there is zero chance of a positive, utopian dream being salvaged from this. The results are going to be bloody and terrifying and worse for everyone involved... and the qunari will see that the Andrastian nations are 1) weakened and vulnerable, and 2) at risk of all sorts of unholy consequences for magic running rampant.

But so be it. The qunari have the right of things. In a qunari society, you wouldn't have mages practicing rampant terrorism or nobles murdering each other while a Blight spreads unchecked.

LobselVith8 wrote...

I love how people think that without brutally oppressing mages, the world will go to hell.

I love how you think that blind optimism and putting "FREEDOM!" up on a pedestal is a rational solution to a real social issue.

[cglasgow]

Technically, we've seen demons possess non-mages every time we fought one of those damned walking trees, or any of the undead. Lesser Fade spirits can entirely possess anything. Hell, even Justice originally was possessing a corpse, thanks to the Veil being torn.

And if a blood mage is deliberately helping, something like a Pride demon can possess a nonmage.

However, provided that the Veil isn't ripped open (and tearing the Veil generally requires mages to have been up to something extremely naughty anyway), a mage is still the only type of person who can be possessed accidentally; it took deliberate mage action to taint those templars.

Modifié par cglasgow, 13 mars 2011 - 09:21 .

[Deztyn]

Darkannex wrote...

May I also add that in DA2, a demon posessed a non mage? I guess we need to lock everyone up now.

They did in DA:O as well, but it was because a mage did it/the veil was torn when it happened. Anyone can be possessed under the right circumstances but mages are much much more susceptible. And when a demon possesses a mage they have access to that mages full power potential in addition to their own. When a mundane is possessed the demon has only it's own power so it's not more dangerous than a regular demon.

Modifié par Deztyn, 13 mars 2011 - 09:24 .

[cglasgow]

Also, 'Anders was wrong!' is not the same thing as saying 'the Chantry was right!'

This is what I meant by the fallacy of the excluded middle; some people are acting like you can't think Anders went too far without also being totally pro-slavery. When, of course, that's not morally true.

[SurelyForth]

Arppis wrote...

sonofalich wrote...

i felt angry at being used by him, although i did have some suspicion he planted a bomb or something in there, so despite what Merrill told me i stabbed the fool in the back like he deserved. i was always going to choose the mages but Anders' terrorist act made me think twice.

The thing people seem not to realize, is the fact that not every mage is the same as Anders. So I seem that it's pointless to blame it on mages when one person did what he did.

Just because a person who owns a gun shoots someone, doesn't mean rest of them are going to do that. But I guess Templars just needed an excuse to act.

This is pretty much why what he did worked. Had Meredith called for his death alone, recognizing that he was one man who committed an independent act of terrorism, his actions would have had far less impact. It was immediately calling for the Rite that led to the real fallout. Orsino probably would have backed her in that situation, seeing how he was absolutely aghast at what Anders had done, and Hawke would have really no chance against both of them together.

[Darkannex]

Deztyn wrote...

Darkannex wrote...

May I also add that in DA2, a demon posessed a non mage? I guess we need to lock everyone up now.

They did in DA:O as well, but it was because a mage did it/the veil was torn when it happened. Anyone can be possessed under the right circumstances but mages are much much more susceptible. And when a demon possesses a mage they have access to that mages full power potential in addition to their own. When a mundane is possessed the demon has only it's own power so it's not more dangerous than a regular demon.

Which to me always seemed like bunk. Especially since we are seeing more and more mass weapons (bombs are becoming more prevalent). And while Meredith was not posessed, imagine if she were. She did MASSIVE damage - and pretty much tore the city apart. Even if Anders had not acted, there was going to be blood in the streets. 

Mages are only considered an exception because they are obvious. Scapegoats. Fear factories. 

My personal feeling is Anders is not sane in the definition of sanity as I see it. He is not in posession of himself, and as a result, he is no more culpable than a stark raving madman. Yes, he needs help, he needs treatment. He may even need incarceration. But execution immediately? 

Modifié par Darkannex, 13 mars 2011 - 09:33 .

[cglasgow]

Eh, Meredith was possessed, by the idol. The part where she turned into a Final Fantasy boss villain at the end wasn't enough of a hint? The woman was animating giant statues into mecha and practically leaping into the skybox.

[Red Templar]

SurelyForth wrote...
This is pretty much why what he did worked. Had Meredith called for his death alone, recognizing that he was one man who committed an independent act of terrorism, his actions would have had far less impact. It was immediately calling for the Rite that led to the real fallout. Orsino probably would have backed her in that situation, seeing how he was absolutely aghast at what Anders had done, and Hawke would have really no chance against both of them together.

Well, maybe. Meredith was crazy, but there's certain method in the madness. Kirkwall had a very real infestation of blood mages and blood mage sympathizers - even Orsino was pen palls with a lunatic blood mage/necromaner - and it is not unreasonable to think that those blood mages would take Anders's terrorism and jump on the bandwagon. Seeing as how the streets were infested with abominations and demons mere minutes after the incident, I have to think that Meredith wasn't completely deluded.

[MortalEngines]

Darkannex wrote...

Which to me always seemed like bunk. Especially since we are seeing more and more mass weapons (bombs are becoming more prevalent). And while Meredith was not posessed, imagine if she were. She did MASSIVE damage - and pretty much tore the city apart. Even if Anders had not acted, there was going to be blood in the streets. 

Mages are only considered an exception because they are obvious. Scapegoats. Fear factories. 

My personal feeling is Anders is not sane in the definition of sanity as I see it. He is not in posession of himself, and as a result, he is no more culpable than a stark raving madman. Yes, he needs help, he needs treatment. He may even need incarceration. But execution immediately? 

You do realize that it was Ander's actions that pushed her into that crazy mindset right? He had basically solidified the growing paranoia that she growing with in her (thanks to the idol) as did Orsino's acts. And she possessed entirely by circumstance, which tends to be the reason for most non-mages. Mages however tend to be possessed at any time or moment if not properly trained or watched.

[Deztyn]

Darkannex wrote...

Which to me always seemed like bunk. Especially since we are seeing more and more mass weapons (bombs are becoming more prevalent). And while Meredith was not posessed, imagine if she were. She did MASSIVE damage - and pretty much tore the city apart. Even if Anders had not acted, there was going to be blood in the streets. 

Mages are only considered an exception because they are obvious. Scapegoats. Fear factories. 

My personal feeling is Anders is not sane in the definition of sanity as I see it. He is not in posession of himself, and as a result, he is no more culpable than a stark raving madman. Yes, he needs help, he needs treatment. He may even need incarceration. But execution immediately? 

Er, how is it bunk? A single human child with a few combustion grenades wouldn't be able to bring a town to it's knees because his dad was sick and he had a bad dream.

Whether you feel the chantry system is right or wrong I don't see how anyone can deny that mages are inherently dangerous in a way that normal person, with all other things being equal, isn't.

[Vandicus]

MortalEngines wrote...

Darkannex wrote...

Which to me always seemed like bunk. Especially since we are seeing more and more mass weapons (bombs are becoming more prevalent). And while Meredith was not posessed, imagine if she were. She did MASSIVE damage - and pretty much tore the city apart. Even if Anders had not acted, there was going to be blood in the streets. 

Mages are only considered an exception because they are obvious. Scapegoats. Fear factories. 

My personal feeling is Anders is not sane in the definition of sanity as I see it. He is not in posession of himself, and as a result, he is no more culpable than a stark raving madman. Yes, he needs help, he needs treatment. He may even need incarceration. But execution immediately? 

You do realize that it was Ander's actions that pushed her into that crazy mindset right? He had basically solidified the growing paranoia that she growing with in her (thanks to the idol) as did Orsino's acts. And she possessed entirely by circumstance, which tends to be the reason for most non-mages. Mages however tend to be possessed at any time or moment if not properly trained or watched.

Actually I'd say its the idol that was found in the Deep Roads that caused her to go crazy. Her going off the deep end and trying to slaughter all the mages was inevitable imo, but I suspect that she likely would've been removed from power if she had tried the Right of Annulment without Anders giving her a good excuse(in the immediate sense of enraging the templars enough that they'll take drastic action). Heck Cullen attempts to remove her from office right after Merridith uses the Right of Annulment, and thats in the immediate aftermath of the First Enchanter turning into a Harvester looking abomination(very curious that ) and Anders destroying the Chantry and thousands of innocents. This seems to indicate that as her insanity became more apparent, she'd eventually be removed from her position of power.

[Leftnt Sharpe]

Seeing as how I have a slightly faulty moral compass (just like in real life), in recent Bioware games I have essentially given up trying to make choices of my own and just do what my love interest tells me to do (just like in real life). So I let Anders live, he came in handy in the final fight though, despite his being a terrorist.

[Drasill]

How did he even do it?