543 réponses à ce sujet

[HawXV2]

I'd like for some of you people to look up the meaning of "terrorism" before calling it terrorism. Do that, or continue to look wrong.

[TJPags]

Drasill wrote...

How did he even do it?

The ingredients you helped him gather, and some magic.  Probably blood magic, knowing DA2.

[Drasill]

TJPags wrote...

Drasill wrote...

How did he even do it?

The ingredients you helped him gather, and some magic.  Probably blood magic, knowing DA2.

Yea, I guess that makes sense though he said it was to get him and Justice seperated.

[TJPags]

HawXV2 wrote...

I'd like for some of you people to look up the meaning of "terrorism" before calling it terrorism. Do that, or continue to look wrong.

From Dictionary.com:

 /ˈtɛrəˌrɪzəm/ Show IPA

–noun
1.
the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.
2.
the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization.
3.
a terroristic method of governing or of resisting a government.

 
First definition sure seems to fit what he did, IMO.

[Vandicus]

HawXV2 wrote...

I'd like for some of you people to look up the meaning of "terrorism" before calling it terrorism. Do that, or continue to look wrong.

Definition:

 

political violence: violence or the threat of violence, especially bombing, kidnapping, and assassination, carried out for political purposes



Definition of terrorism right there. Black and white, Anders was a terrorist. The word technically has nothing to do with the innocence of any parties involved, although I say Anders killed thousands of innocents and was a jerk. I enjoyed stabbing him after what he did.

[MortalEngines]

Drasill wrote...
Yea, I guess that makes sense though he said it was to get him and Justice seperated.

If you question him hard enough, he will admit there was never a spell to seperate him and Justice. It was a hoax to trick you.

[Vandicus]

HawXV2 wrote...

I'd like for some of you people to look up the meaning of "terrorism" before calling it terrorism. Do that, or continue to look wrong.

Just out of curiosity, do you enjoy sticking your foot in your mouth by calling other people wrong when you are in fact wrong?

[TJPags]

Vandicus wrote...

HawXV2 wrote...

I'd like for some of you people to look up the meaning of "terrorism" before calling it terrorism. Do that, or continue to look wrong.

Just out of curiosity, do you enjoy sticking your foot in your mouth by calling other people wrong when you are in fact wrong?

Be fair.

He could be talking about those who deny he's a terrorist.

[Raikas]

MortalEngines wrote...
If you question him hard enough, he will admit there was never a spell to seperate him and Justice. It was a hoax to trick you.

And that was an interesting conversation there - it actually left me convinced that he was planning something even more distructive (and probably a suicide attack taking out the city), so when the chantry exploded my first thought was that it wasn't nearly as horrible as I'd expected.

That was part of the reason I ended up not killing him for it.  The other part for me was that since Isabela almost started a war with the qunari over nothing and Merrill killed off her clan over a mirror, and we see dozens of random characters who kill for random selfish or crazy reasons that finally seeing someone start a war over their actual ideals was awesome.  After all the pointless deaths and betrayals it was refreshing to see some that at least meant something.

Modifié par Hervoyl, 13 mars 2011 - 11:17 .

[cglasgow]

In Isabela's defense, the qunari's reaction was disproportionate. Nobody reasonable expects a war to start because they stole a book. On the other hand, tactical nuclear mass murder is expected to start a war.

[UNOSHI]

oke so i get letter in my estate. i thought doing aaaaaaalll my
companions quest and side quest and what so ever quest besides the main
quest i should be fine. oke great on to the point thought we had to side
with mages to kill comander knight merredith cuz mages and templer
wanted to over throw her. so cool getting to the part where she and
orison having a fuss. orison wanted to run to the chantery im like
yeaaaah do that. u do that. she stops him i thought she gone stab him
like a back stabing b*tich she is then ANDERS comes up im like maaan u
have some mental scitsofrenic issue and stuff already why dont u stay
away man. i didnt took u in my party and BOOOOOOOOOOOEEEEM......... my
jaws drapped and i was liek AAAAAAAAAANDERSSSSS!!!!!!!! nerd rage face
like this >>>>>www.sedentario.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/bottom-fuuu-e1280545925520.jpg  <<<<<

but for real my jaws drop, my heart was pounding like a raging .... something...

this switch the whole plot of things. my whole idea bout mages and templers and all that. whyy sanders why.. (may i call u sanders? cool?) oke so this what a morron really shouldnt have helped him. but i hear (spoiler) he still does that even if u help him or not..... wait. so why did i helped him? aargh u backstabbed me u morron it was my first playthrough

[UNOSHI]

Hervoyl wrote...

MortalEngines wrote...
If you question him hard enough, he will admit there was never a spell to seperate him and Justice. It was a hoax to trick you.

And that was an interesting conversation there - it actually left me convinced that he was planning something even more distructive (and probably a suicide attack taking out the city), so when the chantry exploded my first thought was that it wasn't nearly as horrible as I'd expected.

That was part of the reason I ended up not killing him for it.  The other part for me was that since Isabela almost started a war with the qunari over nothing and Merrill killed off her clan over a mirror, and we see dozens of random characters who kill for random selfish or crazy reasons that finally seeing someone start a war over their actual ideals was awesome.  After all the pointless deaths and betrayals it was refreshing to see some that at least meant something.

lol. to think about it u have a point. merril just obsessed with the mirror she got her clan killed. isabella over a damn book with the qun.

but this was nut ******

[elikal71]

genesisw wrote...

I let Anders live, although my Hawke probably spent the subsequent months slapping the frick out of him and demanding that he swear to never do anything like that again or else someone is taking a march to Amaranthine and making a Ser Pounce-A-Lot hat.  *ahem*  (I do like kitties... I really do...)

That said, let's see what drove him to doing it....

One of the codexes said that Kirkwall had the highest number of mages who failed their harrowing or were made Tranquil, and Anders himself said that besides that the biggest killer of mages was suicide.  If a mage had any children accidentally in the circle they'd be taken never to be seen again.  They weren't allowed to marry and were discouraged altogether from having any sort of relationship.  You had to have permission to go outside.  And the plot where Meredith sends you out to look for rogue mages, I remember one of them saying how he had never felt the rain on his skin and just escaped to he could spend the night with a woman.  Not to mention the implied abuse mages suffered under the templars.
 
I don't agree with Anders' methods, but I understand his frustration.   Jumping up and down and trying to get people to just treat you like a normal person and let you live a life and trying to get people to understand that what's happening is wrong, and yet for everyone else it's necissary or it's normal.  So a mage gets treated like a prisoner that's going to screw up at any moment.  The reason why so many mages fell to blood magic, in my opinion, was because they were treated like criminals or monsters.  If you treat someone like a criminal long enough eventually they might decide that they might as well act the part.  Not to mention when you know the templars are going to put a sword or a brand to you any day now, the whispers of demons promising you a means of escape and a chance at a life are probably very tempting.

And on top of that the Revered Mother wouldn't take a stand.  She had her opinions, but sat idly by while the templars grabbed power in the city (wasn't it implied that the previous viscount was murdered because he tried to throw the templars out?)  I implored her to leave for her own safety and she refused.  When you mention an exaulted march might happen she has you talk things down but mentions herself that innocent people always suffer in times like this.  She had the power to do something and some could say she had the obligation, but there was nothing.  I can understand Anders' frustration, and fact that Anders had Justice grafted to his soul to the point that every mage he met made his innards scream for vengance probably didn't help.

Maybe I'm a maschiocist, but I loved how the last act ripped out my heart and gnawed on it.  Watching everyone collectively and individually reap the results of their decisions for good or for bad, staring down at the people I tried to save as some of them seemed determined to self destruct, and even looking at Carver in his templar uniform while I sided with the mages and wondering if we'd actually end up fighting to the death if it came to it.

I wanted Anders to live so he could see the results of his actions instead of dying as a martyr like he seemed to want to.  I wanted him to see for himself if his new world was worth it.  And I think he still needs to fix Justice.  Besides, Justice is a spirit that previously posessed a corpse, remember?  Who's to say that once the crowds cleared Anders didn't just pick himself up and walk away?

For me, there was no other choice.

I have to go WAAAAY back to answer this.

Ultima IV - Quest of the Avatar. We have 1986 or so. I was to become the Avatar of the Eigh Britannian Virtues, of them being Justice.

Intro, Jaana the Druid, Druids being Judges and wardens of Justice here: 
"Many a grave is filled in the name of justice. Ponder this well!" Her meaning was: people are too quick to kill in the name of justice, because justice, like ALL virtues must be balanced and tempered, or it becomes obsession and ruthlessness. Anders is a prime example how in most cases in life, the choice is not between good and evil. Thus are not the choice of life, but between different definitions of "good". Virtues always need balance, and Justice needs to be balanced with "Mercy" or "Compassion". That game shaped my decisions in games, and in many aspects of life to this very day.   Often when I am not sure in a game what to do, I think: What would the Avatar of Britannia do? Only that games sometimes not offer that decisions, alas. Where comes the point that myself and the hero feel seperated, because none of the options any longer are mine.

Or Gandalf, when Frodo said that Gollum deserves to die. And Gandalf replies his famous saying (paraphrased): "Many who live deserve to die, and many who die deserve to live. Can you give them their life back? Then don't be so quick with a death sentence. Even the very wise can't see the means of all things. It was Bilbos compassion which made him hold the blade, and that may change things." Something like that. And it made a change.

How else can we break the circle of hate and counter hate? See all these things in our world, where two groups are at each other's throats, and none steps back and says "I forgive you. Now let us make a new start. I step back and don't avenge." I know it's easy to say, I never was a slave or tortured or threatened. But enough people in RL were and WERE able to step back. No one expected of Anders to "take a slap on the other cheek"; but there is a big step between not allowing others to harm you and kill innocents yourself.

[UNOSHI]

UNOSHI wrote...

oke so i get letter in my estate. i thought doing aaaaaaalll my
companions quest and side quest and what so ever quest besides the main
quest i should be fine. oke great on to the point thought we had to side
with mages to kill comander knight merredith cuz mages and templer
wanted to over throw her. so cool getting to the part where she and
orison having a fuss. orison wanted to run to the chantery im like
yeaaaah do that. u do that. she stops him i thought she gone stab him
like a back stabing b*tich she is then ANDERS comes up im like maaan u
have some mental scitsofrenic issue and stuff already why dont u stay
away man. i didnt took u in my party and BOOOOOOOOOOOEEEEM......... my
jaws drapped and i was liek AAAAAAAAAANDERSSSSS!!!!!!!! nerd rage face
like this >>>>>www.sedentario.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/bottom-fuuu-e1280545925520.jpg  <<<<<

but for real my jaws drop, my heart was pounding like a raging .... something...

this switch the whole plot of things. my whole idea bout mages and templers and all that. whyy sanders why.. (may i call u sanders? cool?) oke so this what a morron really shouldnt have helped him. but i hear (spoiler) he still does that even if u help him or not..... wait. so why did i helped him? aargh u backstabbed me u morron it was my first playthrough

and ooh yeah i still took him into my party.... since u was soooooo the friend he needed..

[elikal71]

mrsph wrote...

Anders used me to commit an atrocity my Hawke wanted no part in.

So I killed him. I figured it was a mercy kill at point anyway.

There is a trick from "beyond the 4th wall" here.

In REALITY, the actions of Anders and the She-Elf would really ring your alarm bells, or at least could. You would stop supporting them or maybe even actively work against their doings, doubt them and see what they are up do.

But since it's a GAME and a QUEST, you do it to get the XP. You do quests, because we all are trained to do quests and get XP. You don't stop help Anders because you doubt him and leave the quest open. So in a way the entire premise of the moral dilemma with Anders as your friend is entirely flawed. Also since you don't really have all the choices you or me would do. For instance, you drag Anders along because you NEED a healer.

[Northern Sun]

I knew beforehand that Anders would blow up the Chantry, but I sure didn't expect something so…visually captivating.

Still killed him though. I can't forgive what I consider terrorist actions, even though I sided with the mages. Plus, killing him could show at least a couple people(probably not many though) that the mage rebellion wouldn't support actions like that.

[Kemor]

elikal71 wrote...

How else can we break the circle of hate and counter hate? See all these things in our world, where two groups are at each other's throats, and none steps back and says "I forgive you. Now let us make a new start. I step back and don't avenge." I know it's easy to say, I never was a slave or tortured or threatened. But enough people in RL were and WERE able to step back. No one expected of Anders to "take a slap on the other cheek"; but there is a big step between not allowing others to harm you and kill innocents yourself.

You cannot talk or compromise with people only following ideology and not reason. There is no point whatsoever.

I was fine with Anders most of the time, understood the whole business with Justice but he got WAY overwhelmed and once he started mentioning some ritual..and the Chantry..I knew things were going to go wrong so I just refused.

Then he does THAT to create a war? Geesh, I'd have killed him right after getting the map if I knew he was this ****ed up.

You can step back from just disagreeing with someone. Happens all the time.
You cannot step back from lunatics wanting to cut your head or blow people up out of nowhere because you don't think like them. If you step back, that means you submit and THAT is not acceptable.

[Vandicus]

elikal71 wrote...

mrsph wrote...

Anders used me to commit an atrocity my Hawke wanted no part in.

So I killed him. I figured it was a mercy kill at point anyway.

There is a trick from "beyond the 4th wall" here.

In REALITY, the actions of Anders and the She-Elf would really ring your alarm bells, or at least could. You would stop supporting them or maybe even actively work against their doings, doubt them and see what they are up do.

But since it's a GAME and a QUEST, you do it to get the XP. You do quests, because we all are trained to do quests and get XP. You don't stop help Anders because you doubt him and leave the quest open. So in a way the entire premise of the moral dilemma with Anders as your friend is entirely flawed. Also since you don't really have all the choices you or me would do. For instance, you drag Anders along because you NEED a healer.

I personally have to disagree with you on this. There are a number of quests in Dragon Age Origins and Dragon Age 2 that I've rejected on the basis that the character style I'm playing wouldn't do thing X. I had a dilemma when I was asked to help Anders, but I assumed that he was going drink the potion to get Justice out, and move Justice into the statue of Andraste so Justice could manipulate all the Chantry members to help mages. I was going to refuse him until he pulled the "You've supported me on everything else this far" line.

I assume that many other people feel the same way about their characters, such as old table top rpg gamers.

Also I killed Anders even though he was one of my main squad of people that I carefully geared out and built, because I hated the decision he made.


*EDIT: I also ended up "helping" Merril after discouraging her and talking to the Keeper because I wanted to be there in case she was possessed to repeatedly stab her with distraught(she was my char's LI) roguish vengeance. Lucky me, the Keeper was instead, so I didn't lose another of my main sqaudies.

Modifié par Vandicus, 13 mars 2011 - 11:58 .

[elikal71]

Kemor wrote...

elikal71 wrote...

How else can we break the circle of hate and counter hate? See all these things in our world, where two groups are at each other's throats, and none steps back and says "I forgive you. Now let us make a new start. I step back and don't avenge." I know it's easy to say, I never was a slave or tortured or threatened. But enough people in RL were and WERE able to step back. No one expected of Anders to "take a slap on the other cheek"; but there is a big step between not allowing others to harm you and kill innocents yourself.

You cannot talk or compromise with people only following ideology and not reason. There is no point whatsoever.

I was fine with Anders most of the time, understood the whole business with Justice but he got WAY overwhelmed and once he started mentioning some ritual..and the Chantry..I knew things were going to go wrong so I just refused.

Then he does THAT to create a war? Geesh, I'd have killed him right after getting the map if I knew he was this ****ed up.

You can step back from just disagreeing with someone. Happens all the time.
You cannot step back from lunatics wanting to cut your head or blow people up out of nowhere because you don't think like them. If you step back, that means you submit and THAT is not acceptable.

Yes, but against criminals, you work within the law. You work to create due process. A terrorist and fundamentalist who can't be argued with is a criminal, and for that we have police, laws and due process. We don't stab them just in the street.

As to the law that allows Templars to kill all mages: I would like to read the exact text who decides that and what legal steps are necessary. Above such law of course always are the Human Rights, or simply said, that in this case, mages need to be tested individually. You can't hold some responsible for the actions of their peers. Those are IMO universal laws which stand above regional laws. People need fair laws and a fair order, only a fair order creates peace and allows REAL justice.

[elikal71]

Vandicus wrote...

elikal71 wrote...

mrsph wrote...

Anders used me to commit an atrocity my Hawke wanted no part in.

So I killed him. I figured it was a mercy kill at point anyway.

There is a trick from "beyond the 4th wall" here.

In REALITY, the actions of Anders and the She-Elf would really ring your alarm bells, or at least could. You would stop supporting them or maybe even actively work against their doings, doubt them and see what they are up do.

But since it's a GAME and a QUEST, you do it to get the XP. You do quests, because we all are trained to do quests and get XP. You don't stop help Anders because you doubt him and leave the quest open. So in a way the entire premise of the moral dilemma with Anders as your friend is entirely flawed. Also since you don't really have all the choices you or me would do. For instance, you drag Anders along because you NEED a healer.

I personally have to disagree with you on this. There are a number of quests in Dragon Age Origins and Dragon Age 2 that I've rejected on the basis that the character style I'm playing wouldn't do thing X. I had a dilemma when I was asked to help Anders, but I assumed that he was going drink the potion to get Justice out, and move Justice into the statue of Andraste so Justice could manipulate all the Chantry members to help mages. I was going to refuse him until he pulled the "You've supported me on everything else this far" line.

I assume that many other people feel the same way about their characters, such as old table top rpg gamers.

Also I killed Anders even though he was one of my main squad of people that I carefully geared out and built, because I hated the decision he made.


*EDIT: I also ended up "helping" Merril after discouraging her and talking to the Keeper because I wanted to be there in case she was possessed to repeatedly stab her with distraught(she was my char's LI) roguish vengeance. Lucky me, the Keeper was instead, so I didn't lose another of my main sqaudies.

Hm. Ok seems we function differently on this. I followed Anders quest even tho I felt something was wrong here, and I follow the She-Elfs quest (name? Merril??) with the Mirror even though I was so against it, because I thought, hey it's a quest, I have to do it - mentality. I thought I would need every quest to have a chance in the end battle.

And I let Anders life for no other reason that I thought I needed a healer in the final battle.

[TheTWF]

So, does he nuke the Chantry regardless of what you did during the game or not? Does not doing the Justice quest or advising him to leave the city prevent it?

Too lazy and choking on bugs to test it myself. (I had helped him with whatever he asked but took a lot of saves during the game)

Modifié par TheTWF, 14 mars 2011 - 12:12 .

[VettoRyouzou]

I stabbed a blade threw his back and would do it again and Still helped the mages what he did was not to help mages it was his warped sense of justices. A man of true justices seeks peace first and war second.

[TJPags]

TheTWF wrote...

So, does he nuke the Chantry regardless of what you did during the game or not? Does not doing the Justice quest or advising him to leave the city prevent it?

Too lazy and choking on bugs to test it myself. (I had helped him with whatever he asked but took a lot of saves during the game)

While I don't know for sure, having only played once, I think he nukes the Chantry no matter what you do.

I got the ingredients, but didn't help him beyond that.  Some people have said they didn't get the ingredients, I think, and he still nuked it.

He kind of has to, otherwise there is the "let's go talk to Elfinna" option.  Which gets you out of the confrontation.

[Nyaore]

I just recently got to this part in my game last night, and it tore my Hawke apart trying to decide his fate. Not because she was very enthralled by Anders, as she pretty much stopped bothering with him a third of the way into the first act. But because either way the choice she would make would have consequences.
Let the bastard go, and you give him the opportunity to commit more atrocities in the name of his revolution. Which could lead to even more bloodshed and destruction in the years to come.
Or kill him, and turn the sick bastard into a martyr like he wanted. Anders might not be able to commit any more acts of terrorism to further force the issue of a mage rebellion, but his example would rally the mages around the world under a single figure to which they could aspire to be. He'd, in short, become just like Andraste - minus the religious connotations.
She killed him in the end, but not before wanting to slug the bastard in the jaw for what he did.