543 réponses à ce sujet

[Nyaore]

TJPags wrote...

TheTWF wrote...

So, does he nuke the Chantry regardless of what you did during the game or not? Does not doing the Justice quest or advising him to leave the city prevent it?

Too lazy and choking on bugs to test it myself. (I had helped him with whatever he asked but took a lot of saves during the game)

While I don't know for sure, having only played once, I think he nukes the Chantry no matter what you do.

I got the ingredients, but didn't help him beyond that.  Some people have said they didn't get the ingredients, I think, and he still nuked it.

He kind of has to, otherwise there is the "let's go talk to Elfinna" option.  Which gets you out of the confrontation.

He nukes it no matter what you do. I specifically avoided talking to him during the final act and as a result was never consulted to gather ingrediants for his scheme. Yet in the end he still blew up the chantry.

[Jugo666]

LobselVith8 wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

HawXV2 wrote...

It was the most...Idk how to describe. It just made me feel...dreamy. It's my favorite video game moment by far. Anyway, I didn't kill him at first, but since I sided with the templars, I had to in the Templar Hall. I'm never siding with them again in any other playthrough. This plot...It was superior to Origins because of that moment. Anders surpassed any other character instantly. Great job, BioWare.

His act of terrorism was "dreamy"? What?

I'm certain many mages would view him as a freedom fighter who lead to their independence, if Hawke sides with the Kirkwall Circle. When given the choice between freedom and subjugation, Anders saw no reason to choose the latter and forced the issue of the former. Knight-Commander Meredith wants to murder every man, woman, and child who is a mage in Kirkwall, and it's this type of oppressive system that Anders wants to defeat. He wants to see mages attain their independence. Anders targetted a building filled with people who were members of an organization that enslaved mages for almost 900 years. The Order of Templars are soldiers who serve the Chantry, after all, and the focus was to force the issue of mages rising up to free themselves from subjugation. First Enchanter Orsino had no intention of doing anything to emancipate the mages, and Anders did.

That is true in many points.

[Nessin]

I'm surprised anyone can support Anders. I understand the argument that Meredith was "proving him right" (except, of course, she wasn't because Meredith was off her rocker on the idol by that point), but that is no excuse. Think of all the innocents and people like Grand Cleric who wished to see better treatment for Mages. Or, better yet, if his goal was to actually help mages then all he did was waste his time:

Scenario #1: Mages in Kirkwall rebel and survive, driving out/killing the Templars. Divine assembles a huge army to retake Kirkwall and institutes stricter controls on Mages everywhere else, leading to more oppression. No possible way there could be enough Mages and Mage sympathizers to overcome the Templar's and preaching of the Chantry.

Scenario #2: Mages rebel or not, Templar's go on to tranquil/kill them all, and stricter controls are placed on the Circle as a whole and there is even more oppression.

Edit:
Oh yeah, also if his target was to stop oppression, maybe he should have went after the people doing the actual oppression, like the Templar's or (more specifically) Meredith.  Crazy idea to go after your primary target, I know, but then Anders was totally sane.

And regardless of which scenario, you can't hide the fact that magic was just used to destroy a huge building in the middle of a bustling city. What is going to be the reaction from the general populace? "Yay for mages", or "OMG Mages are going to kill us all"?

Of course we know its a video game and our actions will completely defy any reasonable/logical consequence as well as completely ignore all the rules of reality to support the story.

Modifié par Nessin, 14 mars 2011 - 12:42 .

[mander83]

 My Lady Hawke was extremely pro-mage from the very beginning. She also romanced Anders.

Still...when the Chantry blew up...I was kind of speechless.

As much as Hawke HATES Meredith, the Templars, and the Chantry she would never have gone to such an extreme. She was incredibly angry with Anders. She did spare him though. Why? Justice. Vengeance. Would Anders have really gone to such extremes if he were completely in control of himself? Would he have killed that young mage girl? No. Anders is sick, possibly insane but she loves him. So she would never kill him.

What he did was wrong on so many levels. I understand what he was going for...the Chantry isn't my favorite either. That's no excuse for such massive amounts of violence.

The mages are mistreated though...especially in Kirkwall. Would it be so hard to offer them training and a little freedom? Looking back at Origins...if Connor could have come back to Redcliffe to visit for summers or holidays, would Isolde have resisted sending him to the Circle? If Bethany could have gone to some form of training during the day as a child and come home for supper every night, would Hawke's family have resisted? The only option for a mage and their family is seperation. As soon as a child is discovered, they are taken. Likely without being seen again. Yeah, Bethany's mother could visit her at the Circle. Sounds very much like a prison...for someone who never did anything wrong.

So, again, while what Anders did was so very wrong...I can see why he wanted to start something. Anders+Justice just makes a mess of things though.

[Jugo666]

Gandhi wanted an armed revolution, but couldn't have one only because he had no weapons. Would he have used magic if it was available? Was he a terrorist?
How about Spartakus? Boudica? Joan of Arc? How about britons revolting against romans? Or french against britons? How about american revolution? French revolting against their royalty? It sure required countless innocent victims, it was impossible to avoid them. Was that all terrorism???

[Braag]

I liked Anders until he dun goofed.
Blowing up the Chantry like that just made things worse. Damn Sebastian with his threats made the whole situation even more annoying. I liked both characters and didn't want either of them to leave/die...

[Jadespring]

   I got to this late yesterday afternoon after playing all day.  I purposely hadn't read anything much about the game that had even the off chance of accidently spoiling any part of it.  I thought I had read that it took place over ten years  and by my count we're still at seven and even though things seemed to be coming to a head I wasn't sure that this was the end.  Plus Anders," help me with Justice" had me OOC thinking that there was still at least a bit more.   I had a couple of errands to run which I had been putting off all day so when I read the letter about the tiff, went to it and saw that it was going to be a bit of dialog cut scenes I decided that I had to stop because I was running out of time to do the errands.   So I just left it on when the first dialog choice came up....and left to do my thing.  

  I get back, feed the dogs and decide that I'll munch on some dinner while I go through this scene.  So  I settle in with my food, get the dialog going and not expecting that much.  Then other people not in my current party show and I'm thinking okay this is looking 'endy' like, cool!  Then Anders steps in and starts blathering and I'm thinking...'oh no...wait...those materials in that quest...uh...um....and  BOOM!!"   

Caught me completely off guard.    My first thought like many here "WTF!!"  Second thought, "Thank goodness I stopped this scene before and did my errands because if I hadn't I wouldn't have left to do them."     I sat there staring at the screen, "Now what am in the hell supposed to do."  Thought and thought. Then thought, this is just a game why am I having so many issues with this?     Okay then what would my character do?   DW Rogue with Anders as a love interest.  I had been playing her as sympathetic to the mages all along because of her sister and Anders and before hand knew she would side with the mages anyways but this made me think twice.    Do I keep him? Send him away or kill him?    I couldn't kill him and my PC probably wouldn't either.  At least not right away.  She loved him.      If it was me it that situation I probably get angry, tie him up and stash him somewhere to deal with later after trying to sort out the mess he caused, but that wasn't an option and not what my rogue would do.     So I ended up having to REALLY separate  myself from the character to make the choice.   Ended up keeping him and saying she'd run away with him but personally that made me feel bad to choose the options.    Any of the options were hard though.

Damn you game!  LOL    


For me this 'twist' made a good game a great game.

I'm looking forward to my next run through in order to catch all the liitle clues that I obviously missed the first time.   :happy:

[jasonontko]

I should have known something was wrong when Anders asked me to distract the Grand Cleric. It would be like Lindsay Lohan asking you to distract a cashier in a liquor store. You know Anders Lohan is up to no good. But never in my wildest dreams did I think Anders Lohan would turn into Osama Bin Anders Lohan. All of the evil of Osama Bin Laden with the self the control Lindsey Lohan. If Merrill was not such a bad mage or my sister survived the deep roads, I would have put to sword to his terrorist ars.

[Vandicus]

Jugo666 wrote...

Gandhi wanted an armed revolution, but couldn't have one only because he had no weapons. Would he have used magic if it was available? Was he a terrorist?
How about Spartakus? Boudica? Joan of Arc? How about britons revolting against romans? Or french against britons? How about american revolution? French revolting against their royalty? It sure required countless innocent victims, it was impossible to avoid them. Was that all terrorism???

http://encarta.msn.c.../terrorism.html

Warfare and terrorism aren't quite the same thing. By definition, Anders is a terrorist. Rebellion is not equvialent to murdering innocents and neutral parties to provoke a response. What many people seem to forget is Anders didn't target Elthina because she was anti-mage rights or even an enemy. He attacked assuming that she was neutral. This was intended to provoke templars into attacking the Circle, he intended to martyr himself and the Circle of Kirkwall in order to convince all mages that they must fight the templars or die.

[jasonontko]

Jugo666 wrote...

Gandhi wanted an armed revolution, but couldn't have one only because he had no weapons. Would he have used magic if it was available? Was he a terrorist?
How about Spartakus? Boudica? Joan of Arc? How about britons revolting against romans? Or french against britons? How about american revolution? French revolting against their royalty? It sure required countless innocent victims, it was impossible to avoid them. Was that all terrorism???

Oh please what Anders did made about as much sense as blowing up the Vatican to bring about Jihad with the West.   Your analogies are a bit off.    Killing a opressor is one thing, killing innocents so you can start a war with the opressors is a whole other thing entriely.  The chantry was not collateral dmage from targeting military forces, it was the target.  Gandhi would not have approved.   

[ChuckNorris18]

I killed him, the man could no longer tell what was right and wrong because of that spirit in his body.

[elikal71]

Jugo666 wrote...

Gandhi wanted an armed revolution, but couldn't have one only because he had no weapons. Would he have used magic if it was available? Was he a terrorist?
How about Spartakus? Boudica? Joan of Arc? How about britons revolting against romans? Or french against britons? How about american revolution? French revolting against their royalty? It sure required countless innocent victims, it was impossible to avoid them. Was that all terrorism???

A) Mages are not a nation.

Even those Revolutions we agree to say were needed, doesn't say we agree with all that was done in those revolutions. French Revolution sure was good and necessary, but beheading 100s of people for powerstruggle surley wasn't. Not all revolts lead to something better. Russia 1917? The reasons of the Russsians were good and nice, but they still were lead to something even worse. As far as I know Spartacus never attacked civilians, nor did Joan of Arc or the Americans in their revolution.

The means is NEVER justified by the end. At least not in my book. And it was really dumb. The chances are in the end mages will likely have it much worse, because now everyone SAW where magic unchecked leads so. It didn't even make things better for mages, AT ALL. So the alternatives are

1) Mages will, prolly make a Magocracy and make everyone's worst fears come true.

2) Chantry wins, mages are confined even more for 100s of years.

You don't REALLY think in the dark and gloomy DA world as Bioware presented it there is chance for a good outcome, ja ne?

[Palaven]

I wasn't offended or upset at all. It was surprising, of course, but it was in character and his motivations made a lot of sense (why he would do it anyway). I wouldn't have done the same, but I can see where he is coming from.

I kept him alive, since this playthrough I had romanced him and everything. Definitely fighting him in the next one.

[Vohnn]

This moment made me love this game more then I loved origins.

[HawXV2]

In the end, I agree with what he tried to do, but not with how he did it. I like that he forced a decision, but surely there must've been another way. Anders wasn't trying for terrorism, and it wasn't. He isn't trying to scare or rally anyone. He simply wanted the decision to be made. Or am I the only one who listened to him after the explosion?

[VettoRyouzou]

HawXV2 wrote...

In the end, I agree with what he tried to do, but not with how he did it. I like that he forced a decision, but surely there must've been another way. Anders wasn't trying for terrorism, and it wasn't. He isn't trying to scare or rally anyone. He simply wanted the decision to be made. Or am I the only one who listened to him after the explosion?

I don't buy that sorry, if it was that simple he could of just killed grand cleric and got the same effect if that all he wanted.

[R-F]

I needed him as a healer, plus Anders has to be one of the coolest companions going. Even though I had spoiled that moment for myself by surfing through the threads here it was still amazing. When he came up to me in the chantry and said hello to the grand cleric that felt like such an FU moment and I loved it. Let the chantry burn for what they do to mages.

[HawXV2]

VettoRyouzou wrote...

HawXV2 wrote...

In the end, I agree with what he tried to do, but not with how he did it. I like that he forced a decision, but surely there must've been another way. Anders wasn't trying for terrorism, and it wasn't. He isn't trying to scare or rally anyone. He simply wanted the decision to be made. Or am I the only one who listened to him after the explosion?

I don't buy that sorry, if it was that simple he could of just killed grand cleric and got the same effect if that all he wanted.

Eh, it is terrorism But still, I like why he did it. So what is your theory on his reasons? 

[ObserverStatus]

The first thing i saw when i thought the chantry getting lasered was "oh no, the reapers are attacking!" I was going to kill Anders, but than I realized that I'd have no one to heal my party throughout the ending sequence,

Modifié par bobobo878, 14 mars 2011 - 03:00 .

[Vohnn]

bobobo878 wrote...

The first thing i saw when i saw the chantry getting lasered was "oh no, the reapers are attacking!" I was going to kill Anders, but than I realized that I'd have no one to heal my party throughout the ending sequence,

I was going to do this but then I just went with no healer, 2 tanks, 2 rogues, and it worked well.

[AtreiyaN7]

It floored me, and I felt slightly sick afterward. It didn't make me change sides however...I was a mage, and I supported their cause. I felt betrayed and angry, but you know...I could see his point even though I detested what he'd done. I forgave him though because I would never side with the templars, and my Hawkette ran off with Anders...call me weak when it comes to blonde mages.

[jasonontko]

bobobo878 wrote...

The first thing i saw when i saw the chantry getting lasered was "oh no, the reapers are attacking!" I was going to kill Anders, but than I realized that I'd have no one to heal my party throughout the ending sequence,

You got the best sig of them all.  Westboro Batist Church DAO parity is just priceless. 

[Vandicus]

bobobo878 wrote...

The first thing i saw when i saw the chantry getting lasered was "oh no, the reapers are attacking!"

That made me lol

Modifié par Vandicus, 14 mars 2011 - 02:57 .

[upsettingshorts]

HawXV2 wrote...

In the end, I agree with what he tried to do, but not with how he did it. I like that he forced a decision, but surely there must've been another way. Anders wasn't trying for terrorism, and it wasn't. He isn't trying to scare or rally anyone. He simply wanted the decision to be made. Or am I the only one who listened to him after the explosion?

Have you ever listened to the justifications of similar acts in the real world?  I swear that I read almost the exact same stuff Anders was saying when I was reading The Looming Tower.   Especially the parts about forcing a decision out of people who didn't want to make one and the time for negotiating or living under the present status quo being over. 

It is terrorism and that's precisely what he was going for.   How else do you think he was going to force the issue and demand people make a choice without scaring or rallying them?

It was politically motivated violence directed at non-combatants - because terrorists don't recognize that they even exist - for the purpose of escalating the conflict.  What Anders did wasn't just vaguely terrorism, it was a textbook case of it.  By targeting a civic building, he was drawing a line in the sand and saying there are no non-combatants, you're in the war and you're either on the side of the mages or the Templars.  He didn't bomb a Templar base, he didn't even bomb Meredith's office, he blew up the Chantry.  He was making a political statement, and writing it in the blood of innocent people.

That his cause may or may not be sympathetic to your character or to players personally doesn't change the nature of what he did.

By the end of the game Hawke must either implicitly (or explicitly, if they so choose) endorse terrorism or the police state.  Those are the  stakes, and Meredith and Anders are the ones who made it so.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 14 mars 2011 - 03:16 .