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[Jimmy Fury]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
My reasonable, peace loving, detente-pursuing Hawke executed Anders for mass murder, sided with the Templars to put down the revolt, and then thankfully got to kill Meredith too. He would believe in that situation that there is still hope for peace, but he'd be wrong.

Anders is a revolutionary. Supporting him at all is implicitly or explicitly endorsing terrorism.
Meredith represents the state. Supporting her, right up until she turns on you, is implicitly or explicitly endorsing the police state.

It's explicit if you agree with their actions, it's implicit if you feel compelled to join their cause because you have no other choice. To people who don't know Hawke's motivations - basically the rest of Thedas - there is no difference. He or she made his bed right there after the Chantry exploded, one way or the other.

I killed Anders and sided with the Circle. What anders did was wrong. Meredith invoking the right of annulment on the circle due to the actions of an apostate was equally wrong. Both chose to take their anger out on innocent parties to prove their points and my Hawke wasn't going to tolerate it from either of them.

I was kind of happy that through the last battle I got to kill Mages and Templars alike. By then i firmly believed that the only logical opinion was Varric's when he said he was sick and tired of both of them.
And I was a mage...

Modifié par Jimmy Fury, 14 mars 2011 - 04:31 .

[Zyphone]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...
]No clue. There were occasional mentions of him fighting against Justice and eventually losing (I think mostly in his Codex entry), but I never saw anything of the sort play out in the actual game. He acted exactly the same from start to finish, he was just as much a radical in the beginning as he was later on.

Yeah, he was even defensive when you first meet him, as if he already had decided he was going to do something drastic.

TJPags wrote...
The game is 10 years long . . .can't do that if you have the final battle in year 4.

I know its 10 years long (or meant to be). But I mean he had all them years to go over there and just bomb it, and he decides to do it at the dumbest time.

[TJPags]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

Zyphone wrote...

Can anyone tell me why he waited 7 years to bomb the Chantry?

No clue. There were occasional mentions of him fighting against Justice and eventually losing (I think mostly in his Codex entry), but I never saw anything of the sort play out in the actual game. He acted exactly the same from start to finish, he was just as much a radical in the beginning as he was later on.

This is another sort of "fail" aspect, to me.  His codex says he's having more trouble controlling or dealing with Justice, yet he doesn't act much different.  He's just a little more vocal about his ambitions.  His banter remains about the same, his attitude, his appearance, don't seem to change.

I still think he was the source of many of the rumors about Templar atrocities, and also continue to think he was an instigator in the mages unrest.

He had a plan all along, or formed it very early.  And finally figured out how to do it.

[jasonontko]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

jasonontko wrote...

No I think their political motivation are a means to a hate filled end just like Nzi's with the Jews.

Your grasp of the complexities of history is clearly beyond question.

FIne I will spell it out.  Throughout history some people irrationally hated other people purely based on who they are and not because of what they done.  In order to justify the hatred they developed a policticaly ideology justifying the hatred.  Skin heads, KKK, and Westboro Baptist Church are just some present day examples of this phenomenon. 

[TJPags]

Zyphone wrote...

Aris Ravenstar wrote...
]No clue. There were occasional mentions of him fighting against Justice and eventually losing (I think mostly in his Codex entry), but I never saw anything of the sort play out in the actual game. He acted exactly the same from start to finish, he was just as much a radical in the beginning as he was later on.

Yeah, he was even defensive when you first meet him, as if he already had decided he was going to do something drastic.

TJPags wrote...
The game is 10 years long . . .can't do that if you have the final battle in year 4.

I know its 10 years long (or meant to be). But I mean he had all them years to go over there and just bomb it, and he decides to do it at the dumbest time.

I know - my first response was facetious.  I meant to add a  icon.

My second response is serious.

[Dave of Canada]

jasonontko wrote...

No I think their political motivation are a means to a hate filled end just like Nzi's with the Jews.

That's great (not really) for an outsider point of view, I bet the common man like Gamlen thinks just the same about mages and Anders!

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 14 mars 2011 - 04:38 .

[MR445]

I let him go but he came back and got destroyed in about 15 seconds; even though as he leaves he says he'll try not to make a mess of the rest of his life and thanks me.

For a revolutionary terrorist he's pretty gosh darn retarded.

[fett51]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Regardless of how I felt about Meredith, I had to side with her because it was the only hope for peace (siding with the mages which are hated almost universally isn't that good for future peace).

Huh? How is mass-murdering innocent mages going to do anything other than make it worse? What you had at that moment was an apostate/abomination committing an act of terrorism against the Chantry. They could have hung him up as the perfect example of why the Chantry is right to confine mages, but Meredith's lyrium-addled fanaticism caused her to escalate the situation to the level of insanity. Honorable mention to Sebastian's "My peace-loving grand cleric just died! NOW I KILL ALL HER PARISHIONERS!"

[ThatDancingTurian]

TJPags wrote...

This is another sort of "fail" aspect, to me.  His codex says he's having more trouble controlling or dealing with Justice, yet he doesn't act much different.  He's just a little more vocal about his ambitions.  His banter remains about the same, his attitude, his appearance, don't seem to change.

I still think he was the source of many of the rumors about Templar atrocities, and also continue to think he was an instigator in the mages unrest.

He had a plan all along, or formed it very early.  And finally figured out how to do it.

Right. To me his story was just poorly executed. He had no real growth or change, he was simply waiting for the time to be right. He felt less like a character and more like a plot device.

[jasonontko]

Dave of Canada wrote...

jasonontko wrote...

No I think their political motivation are a means to a hate filled end just like Nzi's with the Jews.

That's great (not really) for an outsider point of view, I bet the common man like Gamlen thinks just the same about mages and Anders!

Your right to say what Ander's did was poltically motivated.  I am just saying that not all acts of terrorism or hatred is poltically motivated.  

[hawkens982]

Killed him in my play through. Didn't know he was gonna go al qaeda on the chantry, plus i liked mother ethina, she was the voice of reason amongst opposing factions.

As to the discussion above, its not only limited to Anders, a lot of the game feel like there weren't actually any time-gap in between events, characters are always responding to them as if it just happened, not something in the past.

[Dave of Canada]

fett51 wrote...

Huh? How is mass-murdering innocent mages going to do anything other than make it worse?

Anull the Circle or fight almost all law enforcement in Kirkwall that the citizens support.

The choice was a bit clear for me.

What you had at that moment was an apostate/abomination committing an act of terrorism against the Chantry. They could have hung him up as the perfect example of why the Chantry is right to confine mages

The citizens would have demanded blood, Anders being involved or no. I hate real life comparisons but think of all the prejudices that were brought out after 9/11 and apply them to mages. You'd probably have a lot of people asking for the deaths of all mages.

Mages were planning a rebellion from the start, Meredith tried to handle the situation (as did Orsino) but that didn't work and Orsino didn't want to allow investigation into each mage to see which one was into blood magic or not. He deemed her insane (ignore for a moment the red lyrium) and refused to follow through with what she wanted, when the citizens would've asked for blood.

Meredith chose to anull the Circle, which I agree was a bit extreme, but it's clear that it was that or more extreme measures against mages than what we already had which would've led to a bigger uprising. The only hope for peace was over with the destruction of the Chantry, it was either deal with the mages now or deal with them later.

All the blood mages loose immediately afterward only went to show what I thought, unless blood magic is learned in 5 seconds by most mages.

but Meredith's lyrium-addled fanaticism caused her to escalate the situation to the level of insanity.

I sided with the templar not for Meredith, even though I can understand her a bit, but for the good of Kirkwall. I didn't pretend I liked Meredith immediately after, especially when the mages surrender in the Gallows and you're given a choice of opposing Meredith. Cullen clearly felt the same as me, which also helped me do my decision because not all templar felt the same as Meredith and some regret what's happening.

Meredith is insane but in the only position I'd support.

[elikal71]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

Zyphone wrote...

Can anyone tell me why he waited 7 years to bomb the Chantry?

No clue. There were occasional mentions of him fighting against Justice and eventually losing (I think mostly in his Codex entry), but I never saw anything of the sort play out in the actual game. He acted exactly the same from start to finish, he was just as much a radical in the beginning as he was later on.

It was the ideal time from his point of view. At the clash of Templars VS Mages. It does do the greatest impact at that time as a symbol.

[Jimmy Fury]

Dave of Canada wrote...
Meredith is insane but in the only position I'd support.

Out of curiosity what class were you playing?

The self-preservation angle factored heavily into my mage siding with the mages.

Incidentally I think being a mage made Anders's act less sympathetic for me. Normally I'm all for the revolutionaries but nobody cared that I was an apostate. Elthina was absolutely friendly with me, Sebastian was my bro, Meredith sent me on errands, even the Arishok deemed me worthy of respect.
Not to mention that my Warden is a mage and considered his circle home.
I just honestly didn't perceive the level of injustice Anders kept insisting was there. So his attack just didn't feel as good as say... the end of V for Vendetta.

Modifié par Jimmy Fury, 14 mars 2011 - 05:07 .

[Niten-Ichi]

As for me he deserved to die! so i killed him. I played as a mage but decided to side with the templars though i was against the right of annulment. I dunno if I picked the right decision but DA 2 showed me that mages are not to be trusted...

[fett51]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Anull the Circle or fight almost all law enforcement in Kirkwall that the citizens support.

The choice was a bit clear for me.

All law enforcement?  Can't speak to your game obviously, but I got Aveline on the mages' side.  Regardless she said the guard was busy just keeping the streets in order.  

Dave of Canada wrote...

The citizens would have demanded blood, Anders being involved or no. I hate real life comparisons but think of all the prejudices that were brought out after 9/11 and apply them to mages. You'd probably have a lot of people asking for the deaths of all mages.

Yeah.  Anders' blood.  I should think people would understand the difference between a Circle mage and what Anders was.  Regardless, anyone talking about anullment after that would've been talking about slaughtering innocent people.  You don't cave to people like that, you fight them.  Why would you want to protect people who would rather throw themselves at your sword than not kill innocents?  Meanwhile, slaughtering a whole mess of mages for no reason would make it that much harder to reconcile the mages with the rest of society when the time for that finally comes.  

Mages were planning a rebellion from the start, Meredith tried to handle the situation (as did Orsino) but that didn't work and Orsino didn't want to allow investigation into each mage to see which one was into blood magic or not. He deemed her insane (ignore for a moment the red lyrium) and refused to follow through with what she wanted, when the citizens would've asked for blood.

If by rebellion you mean "Replace Meredith with Thrask" sure.  Regardless, at that point in the story they were dead, and there's a whole other discussion to be had about to what extent Meredith's measures caused that situation in the first place.  

All the blood mages loose immediately afterward only went to show what I thought, unless blood magic is learned in 5 seconds by most mages.

In the templar ending Orsino says he'd never used blood magic before, but he had studied it for years.  From the mage origin we know mages had access to that information.  

Modifié par fett51, 14 mars 2011 - 05:45 .

[AtreiyaN7]

Zyphone wrote...

Can anyone tell me why he waited 7 years to bomb the Chantry?

I think it's because Meredith hadn't yet gone completely insane. He was sticking witht he small-time stuff like helping apostates escape until the templars (or Meredith at any rate) became far too oppressive and cruel in their treatment of the Circle mages.

[MotoSkunkX]

Anders is clearly the braveheart of the Dragon Age world.

Freeedoooooooommmmmm!

Continued oppression, or a fight to the death where it's complete freedom or death? Hardly a choice.

[nielariel]

Haven't read all the posts here but here's my bulletpoint summary of my thoughts:

The situation had gone out of hand: change was needed.

The First Enchanter had no power to change anything in a peaceful manner.

The Chantry Mother was too high-horse to interfere (rant: really, I understand how she compares both of them to children with the analogy that children need to learn from their own mistakes but you don't allow children to stick their hand into boiling water to teach them a lesson, nor do you let them shoot themselves in the head to see if it is deadly...)

The Templar Commander was fanatically uncompromising and, eventually, became insane.

Anders' 'red-beam of doom' was a last resort after having witnessed countless atrocities committed against mages; to be fair, not all the mages were completely innocent either.

So, really, the question of blame and justification is quite pointless. The person in real power, the Templar Commander, refused to compromise and kept on tranqulling mages, guilty or not.

That kind of injustice isn't really something that can be tolerated.

When 2nd class citizens are denied freedom, rights and family; when they are constantly told how evil they are for simply existing, then its really no wonder they would fight back.



Needless to say, I am absolutely sympathetic to the mages, but I'm pretty sure the blame for it lies with the Templar Commander and society/Chantry in general. If she had just executed Anders instead of annulment then my char would have probably accepted that...

Anyways, I really liked the story: focusing on the mage/templar tensions was very cool, though I suppose there were no ends of choices with this fantasy world Bioware created: Elves vs Humans; Feralden vs Orlais vs Qunari vs Tevinter vs (insert nation name here); Dwarf casteless vs nobility... the list goes on.

Though,. imo, the mage/templar one was probably the best choice, perhaps tied with elves/humans: both tensions go beyond a single nation: it is a simple matter of human rights and their violation.

[Setsuken]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Setsuken wrote...

This is important because of his line about being seen as a martyr if you kill him.

Even if he lives, he's an icon to all mages who rebel throughout Thedas. He's a terrorist amongst society but a hero amongst the mages, martyrdom or no. He may be idealized when he's dead but at least I know he can't hurt anybody else, letting him live will only make him probably gather mages under his banner.

What's to say other mages won't join him in his insanity? Will Anders teach that a spirit joining with you is the only way to free themselves? What if the war finishes and mages lost, will he begin bombing innocents some more?

I do agree with the idea that he'll become an icon; However, he DID help a lot of people in awakenings and in DA2. It seems that he's become more desperate towards the end, and uses desperation to justify his actions. He knew that his actions would probably cost his life.
 I didn't mean that it was neccessarily wrong to decide to kill him; but I don't think it's right either.
I would've rather him have to live with the consequences of his actions.  Also, there would be some sort of poetic justice in locking him away, maximum security.  Or even making him tranquil.

Sorry it took me a minute to get back to this.

[Bigdoser]

EchoGarrote wrote...

I killed Anders, but I sided with the Mages. But...well...the Revered Mother in some ways she's just as bad as Meredith and Orsino.

Although, now don't get me wrong the Revered Mother was a good person first and foremost. Did she deserve death? No. Was Anders wrong? Yes. Was she another responsible party for the whole damn mess? Yes.

(Personally, I wish there was an option to go a little Qunari on him. Keep him alive, but chop off his hands.)

But back to the Revered Mother and why she (and the Viscount as well regarding the Qunari) are responsible.

Here's the core of it: You can't be in a position of power and do nothing except hope that the problem will go away. Because if you make no choice, someone else will make the choice for you.

The Revered Mother was given many MANY opportunities to speak out, to make a comment, to say that Meredith had gone too far, or that Orsino needed to back down. But she didn't. She was given a chance to walk away by the Divine herself. But she didn't. Anders even gave her one last chance to say something, anything, while he was setting up his surprise. But she continued to waffle. I also bet two bucks that, had Anders not done what he did, she would have told Orsino to shut up and allow the search while scolding Meredith to tone it down and let Cullen lead it. Once more, nothing would have been resolved, nothing would have changed, and odds were good that someone else would have done something even worse than Anders.

If she had pushed it, just a little, then Meredith would have snapped or Orsino would have exposed himself for being a Blood Mage and then there would be a change, but with a FAR smaller body count.

Also, the Revered Mother was not exactly spreading the word of 'Give mages a chance' but rather 'Just don't kill them.' Anders said that the Chantry and the Templars like Meredith spend a good amount of time saying that mages are a sin against the Maker, and that they're all bound for the Void. Remember in Origins that one mage who wished that she died because she was ashamed of her magic? If the Revered Mother was so sympathetic about the mages then why didn't she go out and say something to contradict that? No. She was assured that she was doing the 'right' thing by not taking sides and she let her pride keep her there when she was told by the Divine that the situation was going to explode. So she just let the Chantry spew it's hate speech and allowed Meredith to get worse and worse and the Mages more and more desperate.

It all harkens back to Flemeth's little speech on the top of the mountain about seeing if you can fly. Orsino and Meredith already hurled themselves into the void and crashed. The Revered Mother just stood on the edge, pretending that it wasn't there, that it wasn't a problem, that she had control...and then Anders pushed her in.

Hawke, and Anders if you see it from his POV, became dragons.

Wow I can't put it in any better words. This is how I saw the whole thing as well. I kept anders alive and sided with the mages.

Modifié par Bigdoser, 14 mars 2011 - 06:57 .

[Jarlan23]

What happens if you don't distract the mother in his quest? If you just refuse to do it? Does the ending still play out like that?

[MortalEngines]

jasonontko wrote...
FIne I will spell it out.  Throughout history some people irrationally hated other people purely based on who they are and not because of what they done.  In order to justify the hatred they developed a policticaly ideology justifying the hatred.  Skin heads, KKK, and Westboro Baptist Church are just some present day examples of this phenomenon. 

Sorry, I just want to say this. Just because there are many groups that hide behind racism or xenophobia, doesn't mean that's why they act the way the do. They use racism as a cover, to convince others to join their cause, it's almost never the reason. In fact, the actual reason is nearly always linked to money.

Case point: **** Germany, while, yes, later people did develop a racist mindset against Jews, initially, all of Hilter's slander against them was because he felt that they were causing the economy to fall and in part he was right. So he decided to use the most radical way to remove them. And in turn, he used racism to convince others and cover his actual reason. (He also used Jews because he had alreaedy seen brewing hatred for them in Austria and knew that people were somewhat irritated by them already, making his task even easier).

Another example was the treatment of slaves and the civil war in America. Those in the south weren't fighting because they geniunely believed the black people are some sort of subspecies (maybe one or two did), but because if they didn't keep their hold on them, they would lose a vital source of income. The slaves treament was a biproduct of what the slave owners thought was the most productive way to use them. Black people were easy prey to exploit and use, without the expense of using themselves (who were mostly caucasian).

EDIT: Not to say I support either actions, but I just wanted to point out that they weren't mindless acts purely built on racism. Racism was just a justification that they could use to hide the real reason. (It's much easier to say, ''It's because they're different'' and convince people than it is to say ''It's because they're worth alot'').

TJPags wrote...
This is another sort of "fail" aspect, to me.  His codex says he's having more trouble controlling or dealing with Justice, yet he doesn't act much different. 

Huh? No change?

Was I the only one who got all the dialog about how he thinks he can't fight justice anymore and how as the game progresses he becomes much more passionate about the cause and in party banter, he begins to act more and more serious and no longer jokes with Varric about templars and such.

Modifié par MortalEngines, 14 mars 2011 - 06:54 .

[PopDisaster]

MortalEngines wrote...

jasonontko wrote...
FIne I will spell it out.  Throughout history some people irrationally hated other people purely based on who they are and not because of what they done.  In order to justify the hatred they developed a policticaly ideology justifying the hatred.  Skin heads, KKK, and Westboro Baptist Church are just some present day examples of this phenomenon. 

Sorry, I just want to say this. Just because there are many groups that hide behind racism or xenophobia, doesn't mean that's why they act the way the do. They use racism as a cover, to convince others to join their cause, it's almost never the reason. In fact, the actual reason is nearly always linked to money.

Case point: **** Germany, while, yes, later people did develop a racist mindset against Jews, initially, all of Hilter's slander against them was because he felt that they were causing the economy to fall and in part he was right. So he decided to use the most radical way to remove them. And in turn, he used racism to convince others and cover his actual reason. (He also used Jews because he had alreaedy seen brewing hatred for them in Austria and knew that people were somewhat irritated by them already, making his task even easier).

Another example was the treatment of slaves and the civil war in America. Those in the south weren't fighting because they geniunely believed the black people are some sort of subspecies (maybe one or two did), but because if they didn't keep their hold on them, they would lose a vital source of income. The slaves treament was a biproduct of what the slave owners thought was the most productive way to use them. Black people were easy prey to exploit and use, without the expense of using themselves (who were mostly caucasian).

EDIT: Not to say I support either actions, but I just wanted to point out that they weren't mindless acts purely built on racism. Racism was just a justification that they could use to hide the real reason. (It's much easier to say, ''It's because they're different'' and convince people than it is to say ''It's because they're worth alot'').

TJPags wrote...
This is another sort of "fail" aspect, to me.  His codex says he's having more trouble controlling or dealing with Justice, yet he doesn't act much different. 

Huh? No change?

Was I the only one who got all the dialog about how he thinks he can't fight justice anymore and how as the game progresses he becomes much more passionate about the cause and in party banter, he begins to act more and more serious and no longer jokes with Varric about templars and such.

I got this too. At one point, Varric is joking about how to execute Meridith, and Anders says something like "I'm not in the mood." Varric then says, "Awww, Justice go away, can't Anders come out and play?" And Anders gets really upset about it. I noticed a huge change in the banter.

Also, I let him live and continued the romance.

[The Cannibal Factory]

I got this too. At one point, Varric is joking about how to execute Meridith, and Anders says something like "I'm not in the mood." Varric then says, "Awww, Justice go away, can't Anders come out and play?" And Anders gets really upset about it. I noticed a huge change in the banter.

Also, I let him live and continued the romance.

The following Anders rivalmance video is very interesting - it rather makes what he did a bit more ambiguous, as it shows that Justice is taking control and Anders seems to be having "time lapses" where he can't remember what has happened....



(NB: It's a male Hawke one but I would imagine it's the same with a female Hawke).

Makes you wonder just how much Anders is really to blame.