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[Red Templar]

fett51 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Regardless of how I felt about Meredith, I had to side with her because it was the only hope for peace (siding with the mages which are hated almost universally isn't that good for future peace).

Huh? How is mass-murdering innocent mages going to do anything other than make it worse? What you had at that moment was an apostate/abomination committing an act of terrorism against the Chantry. They could have hung him up as the perfect example of why the Chantry is right to confine mages, but Meredith's lyrium-addled fanaticism caused her to escalate the situation to the level of insanity. Honorable mention to Sebastian's "My peace-loving grand cleric just died! NOW I KILL ALL HER PARISHIONERS!"

This rather assumes that 1) Meredith's suspicions were completely baseless, and 2) that the circle mages would have sit back and behaved themselves after Anders's terrorist spectacle. Maybe that is the case, but there is plenty of reason to doubt it. Kirkwall had a very real infestation of blood mages. Orsino had virtually no control over his Circle - and he himself was a blood mage sympathizer who protected his serial killer/necromancer pen pal because he found his research interesting. Orsino was putting his foot down and prepared to go head to head with Meredith over something as simple as having the tower searched - which gives a strong implication that there is something to hide. Crazy and possessed as she was... Meredith wasn't wrong about there being a very real problem among Kirkwall's mages. The fact that the streets were filled with abominations and demons that same night just proves it. If Meredith hadn't escalted things... do we really think that all those rebellious blood mages would have responded to the chantry being blown up by a rebel mage and said "I'm staying out of this one!". I don't, nor do I think Orsino could have held them back from a terrorist bandwagon reaction.

[trembli0s]

Mr.House wrote...

So let's talk about this event in the game. What was your reaction to this? Did this change who you sided with? Where you upset? Did you kill Anders?

Lets discuss one of the games biggest twist.

Pissed me the hell off, I tried so hard to stay neutral and he blew it up, literally.

Shanked him as soon as I could and sided with the mages who then went crazy, thanks Bioware <_<

Re-opened a save and once I saw that it was him or Sebastian rolling into Kirkwall at the head of an Exalted March made it even easier haha.

[IanPolaris]

Everyone,

Sorry about coming into this late, (and I will in no way read all 15 pages), but here's my take.

Lob, you know that as a rule I generally agree with you about mages in DA, but it's clear tha the writers plainly do NOT.  The authors made it painfully obvious and almost obnoxiously repetive about how "evil" and "untrustworthy" and "dangerous" mages are.  Frankly the mages in Kirkwall DO justify everyoen that Lotion and others have said about them for months and that seems to be deliberate story design.

In addition, Lob, I have to say that you are letting your support of mage (frankly simply HUMAN) rights blind you to the obvious here.  Anders IS a terrorist and a cold-blooded murderer.  He slaughtered an entire cathedral full of people that did nothing to him and did so for explicit polical gain and dies proud of what he's done.

If mages are EVER going to be trusted to (help) police themselves, it's people like Anders that have to be brought to justice as switfly, publically, and forcibly as possible.  Indeed I wished the game gave me the option to kill Anders the moment we found out he was an abomination.  Both my mage-hawke and Blood-Warrior Warden would do so gladly to SHOW that mages can put down their own if needed.

I kill Anders without regret or second thought.  He is a mass murderer.  He deserves to die.  There IS no excuse.

-Polaris

[Babi]

MotoSkunkX wrote...

We high fived and ran off to kill the evil Templars. But no, seriously - why was there no "high five me bro" option? That was seriously the best thing that's ever happened in both games. I have never been so proud of Anders, or any video game character before IN MY LIFE.

Words cannot describe the epic. I still think his opinion of "herp blood magic bad" is retarded, though.

Amen to that, bro. lol

[lyssalu]

Lady Vengeance wrote...

I got this too. At one point, Varric is joking about how to execute Meridith, and Anders says something like "I'm not in the mood." Varric then says, "Awww, Justice go away, can't Anders come out and play?" And Anders gets really upset about it. I noticed a huge change in the banter.

Also, I let him live and continued the romance.

The following Anders rivalmance video is very interesting - it rather makes what he did a bit more ambiguous, as it shows that Justice is taking control and Anders seems to be having "time lapses" where he can't remember what has happened....



(NB: It's a male Hawke one but I would imagine it's the same with a female Hawke).

Makes you wonder just how much Anders is really to blame.

holy **** that's sad

[trembli0s]

Lady Vengeance wrote...

I got this too. At one point, Varric is joking about how to execute Meridith, and Anders says something like "I'm not in the mood." Varric then says, "Awww, Justice go away, can't Anders come out and play?" And Anders gets really upset about it. I noticed a huge change in the banter.

Also, I let him live and continued the romance.

The following Anders rivalmance video is very interesting - it rather makes what he did a bit more ambiguous, as it shows that Justice is taking control and Anders seems to be having "time lapses" where he can't remember what has happened....



(NB: It's a male Hawke one but I would imagine it's the same with a female Hawke).

Makes you wonder just how much Anders is really to blame.

Damn, that's really heavy. Definitely puts everything quite a bit more into perspective! It also makes me think that murderknifing him is the best possible outcome. If you didn't Justice would completely take over his personality

[Archadian]

Death to all who follow the Chantry, I say.
Good job, Anders!

[Swisspease]

I guess they should never have taken his cat away.
And yeah, I did kill him. That murdering bastard. Was probably my biggest OMG moment in games.

[Babi]

trembli0s wrote...

Lady Vengeance wrote...

I got this too. At one point, Varric is joking about how to execute Meridith, and Anders says something like "I'm not in the mood." Varric then says, "Awww, Justice go away, can't Anders come out and play?" And Anders gets really upset about it. I noticed a huge change in the banter.

Also, I let him live and continued the romance.

The following Anders rivalmance video is very interesting - it rather makes what he did a bit more ambiguous, as it shows that Justice is taking control and Anders seems to be having "time lapses" where he can't remember what has happened....



(NB: It's a male Hawke one but I would imagine it's the same with a female Hawke).

Makes you wonder just how much Anders is really to blame.

Damn, that's really heavy. Definitely puts everything quite a bit more into perspective! It also makes me think that murderknifing him is the best possible outcome. If you didn't Justice would completely take over his personality

I'd like to think that there's the slightest possibility that you can rid him of justice at some point. After all, you can go via fade to remove demons... why not spirits? Connor was pretty buggered in DA:O but you can still save him...

[Jugo666]

HawXV2 wrote...

I'd like for some of you people to look up the meaning of "terrorism" before calling it terrorism. Do that, or continue to look wrong.

QFT.

In our days people are trained to mindlesly label any act of force directed against the governing structures as terrorism.

[Rabies]

I think my jaw must have literally hit the floor. I wound up killing him to prevent Sebastian from going to Starkhaven and bringing an army. Sebastian was right. The Grand Cleric didn't deserve what she got, and what Anders did endangered my sister's future...so I killed that tool. I hated doing it though. I still remember the lovable Anders from Awakening.

I basically wound up siding with the mages purely because the Templars were being such massive tools and because if I didn't...they were going to murder my only remaining immediate family member.

[Icy Magebane]

Anders was a selfish fool. Justice was partially to blame, but Anders is the one who made a deal with a spirit in the first place. He wouldn't respond to reason and was nothing more than a liability. I was happy to end his life, but I wish there was some way to do it before he summoned Bahamut... I mean, um... set off the magic bomb.

[Baaleos]

I just wish I had that Bomb/Red Beam of Light power back when I was fighting the Ancient Rock Wraith.

[The Lesser Evil]

My Mage Hawke was (of course) supportive of the Mages, feeling kinship to them and wanting to better their plight. He was also involved in a relationship with Anders, loving him completely and trying to steer him away from the path of self-destructive justice he was on. He was, however, pretty much blind to just how far gone Anders was, and helped him at any opportunity because... well, what's love if you don't do everything you can for the person you love?

When the Chantry was blown up though... it was as if a bucket of cold water was thrown into Hawke's face. Not only did he realize how far gone Anders was, but he also realized that because of his love-blind support of his lover Hawke was complicit in the mass murder of innocents. It was such a betrayal of trust, such a horrible way to backstab someone trying to help you as much as they can, AND it did nothing but show the world just how dangerous Mages can be.

Hawke couldn't forgive him for that. It broke his heart to do so, but he killed Anders. Love, trust and forgiveness only go so far.

[Faridle]

I usually support the mages but what anders did is horrid. And with Sebastian threatning to rise an army well there where only one choice anders had to be free of Justice so I killed him and joined the templars. Sinse Orsino will become an harvester anyway there is only one "good" choice, the templars.
fortunately I romanced Merrill so she sided with me also. Anders was an victim of Justice and on the path of vengeance, and on that path one should always dig two graves.

Thats my opinion even tho I support mage freedom I dont support mindless slaughter.
Also Leandra`s death put me a good deal off blood mages, ironic that I romanced one. Wow this game is dramatic sheesh!

Modifié par Faridle, 14 mars 2011 - 12:04 .

[Funker Shepard]

RosaAquafire wrote...

Between Anders's 9/11 moment and Leandra's horrific end, this game GOT to me in a way that none other ever has. Even if I didn't love almost everything else about it ... those two things would have made me forgive it.

Best writing I've seen in a game.

Words out of my mouth. I don't think I've ever actually been shocked by a game before, and this one managed to do it more than once.

Though, it was less so with Anders, gathering what were pretty obviously the agents of gunpowder was kind of a dead-giveaway of what he was planning. Leandra I totally did not see coming, though!

[IanPolaris]

Faridle,

With regard to blood mages, I'd say that Merril is living proof that bloodmagic is extremely dangerous but NOT intrinsically evil. The problem with blood magic is:

1. It's inherently more powerful than other forms of magic (although far less so in DA2 than DAO).
2. It does seem to make you more attractive to demons.
3. Because of the sorts of things it can do (and the sort of magic it is), it tends to attract mages who probably shouldn't be handling ANY magic without close supervision let alone bloodmagic (i.e. pyschotic criminal scum).

The point is that it was a Psychotic Necromancer that was responsible for what happened to Leandra, not Bloodmagic. Just as Guns never killed anyone, it's the person that chooses to pull the trigger that does, the same applies here.

-Polaris

[Red Templar]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Anders was a selfish fool. Justice was partially to blame, but Anders is the one who made a deal with a spirit in the first place. He wouldn't respond to reason and was nothing more than a liability. I was happy to end his life, but I wish there was some way to do it before he summoned Bahamut... I mean, um... set off the magic bomb.

It is tricky to split blame between Anders and Justice. Anders has been gradually losing his will and his moderation to Justice's zeal... but Justice has also been losing his sense of right and fairness to Anders's bitterness and frustration. Without the spirit of Vengeance compelling him, Anders might not have gone so far. But I don't believe the Justice we knew in Awakening would have condoned the murder of innocent civilians for the sake of provoking the murder of more innocent civilians to create a war. I know some people will let Anders off easy with the "Justice did it, it wasn't Anders" excuse, but if it weren't for Anders's selfishness and moral weakness, Justice would still be Justice and not a spirit of vengeance.

Modifié par Red Templar, 14 mars 2011 - 12:17 .

[Phex]

That YouTube video makes me so sad. I didn't see it on my first playthrough as I was maxed out on friendship. I really would have wanted to see this scene because I was furious at him in the end. He's losing himself to Justice/Vengeance more and more.

Also, well said Red Templar!

Modifié par Sefferz, 14 mars 2011 - 02:00 .

[VettoRyouzou]

HawXV2 wrote...

VettoRyouzou wrote...

HawXV2 wrote...

In the end, I agree with what he tried to do, but not with how he did it. I like that he forced a decision, but surely there must've been another way. Anders wasn't trying for terrorism, and it wasn't. He isn't trying to scare or rally anyone. He simply wanted the decision to be made. Or am I the only one who listened to him after the explosion?

I don't buy that sorry, if it was that simple he could of just killed grand cleric and got the same effect if that all he wanted.

Eh, it is terrorism But still, I like why he did it. So what is your theory on his reasons? 

Frankly? I think there was no reason Anders has been driven insane by Justice or vis versa he can't stop himself any more then I can stop the sun from coming up. Many of other mages have shown me peace can happen if in the right hands Wynne being the key one as well as the Grand Enchanter in DA:O. Anders was just to spiteful to give it a shot blaming the whole for a few.

And yes I am pro mage.

It boils down to ones again.. If grey wardens be they mage.. templar.. theif or Noble can work togther for a common goal.. then why can't everyone else?

[Layn]

This was an amazing moment and very very very hard.

Hawke had romanced Anders, and Anders had asked to distract the grand cleric. i thought he just needed one more thing for his potion (which apparently didn't work. don't think he mentioned it ever again). But when that happened it was such a crass betrayal of her trust that she couldn't be near him anymore. but due to all that they meant to each other, she couldn't kill him either, so she sent him away. He ended up reappearing and this time accepted having him there fighting, although not part of her team and made clear their relationship had ended. but apparently he continued travelling with her later on. hopefully because even though she can't kill him, she can't let him go all terrorist and want's to keep an eye on him.

i knew something was up when Anders became distant and started giving things away and stuff, but THAT... wow

Modifié par Crrash, 14 mars 2011 - 02:37 .

[Jimmy Fury]

IanPolaris wrote...
2. It does seem to make you more attractive to demons.

There's a specific reason for the connection between blood magic and demons. According to the wiki: "This practice is so rare in Thedas now that it can now only be learned from contacting a demon, with the risk of becoming an abomination."
Of course not everyone who uses blood magic learns it that way. Jowan appears to have learned it from the books in the Tower. Orsino may have learned it from other mages as well due to his position (unfortunately we'll probably never know). The Warden can learn it from a demon or from a book in Awakening.

So some of the evil associated with blood magic can be traced to the Chantry itself for outlawing it and making it so hard to learn in a safe way.

Modifié par Jimmy Fury, 14 mars 2011 - 02:43 .

[Icy Magebane]

Red Templar wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

Anders was a selfish fool. Justice was partially to blame, but Anders is the one who made a deal with a spirit in the first place. He wouldn't respond to reason and was nothing more than a liability. I was happy to end his life, but I wish there was some way to do it before he summoned Bahamut... I mean, um... set off the magic bomb.

It is tricky to split blame between Anders and Justice. Anders has been gradually losing his will and his moderation to Justice's zeal... but Justice has also been losing his sense of right and fairness to Anders's bitterness and frustration. Without the spirit of Vengeance compelling him, Anders might not have gone so far. But I don't believe the Justice we knew in Awakening would have condoned the murder of innocent civilians for the sake of provoking the murder of more innocent civilians to create a war. I know some people will let Anders off easy with the "Justice did it, it wasn't Anders" excuse, but if it weren't for Anders's selfishness and moral weakness, Justice would still be Justice and not a spirit of vengeance.

This is really the problem with spirits roaming around the mortal realm.  They have no concept of what life means outside the Fade.  They each embody some specific aspect of the human psyche, and they can't see past that.  Justice proved that they also cannot adapt to learn new things the way humans can.  It never had any understanding of compromise, and thus, it could only become more and more obsessed with enforcing its will, regardless of the cost.  I think I'm more inclined to blame the whole thing on Anders though... he should have known he'd become an abomination.  Wynne didn't, but being inhabited by the Spirit of Faith was not conscious choice, and it's not like he met her...  This is more like what happened with Uldred and the Pride Demon...

[Takeva_]

What Anders did annoyed the heck out of me. He killed all those innocent people in the Chantry. Sorry but I liked the grand cleric over Anders. I killed him. If I would have let him go it's no telling what he will blow up next. I still sided with the mages because to kill all the mages who didn't have anything to do with what Anders did is ridiculous! Even though a lot of the stupid mages turned on me. But I believe Meredith forced some of them to protect themselves. So they turned to demons and blood magic.

[Wynne]

My character was a wisecracking mage with heart. She had a rivalry thing with Fenris which I loved, but when he left her she turned to Anders and found him more to her liking. A friendship romance. (I would've had her break up with Anders when he lied to her, especially since Fenris was better for her overall and I saw her as having always been in love with him but too proud to admit it for a while after he left her, but the game didn't give me the option, sadly.)

Over the years she became more and more bitter, especially after losing her brother to the templars and her mother to a psychopath, but never so bitter as in that moment. The rage and sorrow inspired by that moment--I simply could not see her doing anything but killing him.

In retrospect, it makes a terrorist into a martyr and saves him from facing the consequences, which is hardly any form of justice... but at the moment, I felt exactly what my character felt. He stabbed her in the back, and having just witnessed what she witnessed, with Sebastian urging her on, it seemed like there was no other option but to return the favor.

Tragic. Extremely tragic. This is seriously the most depressing game Bioware has EVER made.

DAO was supposed to be "dark fantasy"--it was not, it was just fantasy. This was dark fantasy. Pitch black. I'm still reeling from it.

Modifié par Wynne, 14 mars 2011 - 03:12 .