543 réponses à ce sujet

[Layn]

Wynne wrote...

DAO was supposed to be "dark fantasy"--it was not, it was just fantasy. This was dark fantasy. Pitch black. I'm still reeling from it.

definitely

I like Origins a lot more, but what DA2 did... it's incomparable and i would never imagine bioware would go that way. At the end of Origins i was for a long time sad that the journey was over, that i would no longer fight alongside my companions, nor talk to them. But Dragon Age 2 made me cry (for the loss, for the betrayal, for the dark turn everything took, in particularly lighthearted kitten-adoring Anders). And i was glad that i was done with that mess (even though i'm happy i played it) except... this was just the start to a bigger mess, and i'm actually looking forward to dive into that one.

[Jayce]

HawXV2 wrote...

DieHigh2012 wrote...

Anders IS a terrorist man, that is exactly what terrorist do they justify their mass murdering with talk of oppression......

He was the leader of the underground apostate resistance, terrorist dont have to be religious dude. They just have to kill a bunch of innocent people.

Nope. It isn't terrorism. It's him trying to stop oppression. Sorry.

It is terrorism. If Anders had attempted to kill Meredith in a hit or blew up a bunch of templars by suckering them into a false raid, that would be one thing, but by simply blowing up the Chantry and killing people merely on the periphery of his quarrel with the templars, he not only alienated alot of people, he played straight into Meredith's hands and handed her the perfect excuse. Anders is, at that point, every bit as evil and guilty as Meredith.   

[fathomless33]

HA! What Anders did is the exact definition of terrorism. You would have to be silly to think otherwise.

I find that its almost the same as the OKC bomber. He thought the government was oppressing him and his friends, so he decided to blow up a government building. There can be many arguments that what he felt and thought was true.

Anders view was that the chantry and templars were oppressing mages, so he blew up a church building. He committed an act of terrorism to start a war. There can be many arguments that what he felt and thought was true.

Even if one of you came to my home and beat me everyday, or locked me up or whatever i would never kill innocents to try and further my cause, that is reserved for bin laden and timothy mcveigh type people. I dont roll like that, regardless of circumstances.

Worst part is now i have to try playing through without a healer from now on.....

[Aithieel]

I was like "nooo, what have you done?!" but my character was in love with him so they run away together afterall.

Crrash wrote...

Wynne wrote...

DAO was supposed to be "dark fantasy"--it was not, it was just fantasy. This was dark fantasy. Pitch black. I'm still reeling from it.

definitely

I like Origins a lot more, but what DA2 did... it's incomparable and i would never imagine bioware would go that way. At the end of Origins i was for a long time sad that the journey was over, that i would no longer fight alongside my companions, nor talk to them. But Dragon Age 2 made me cry (for the loss, for the betrayal, for the dark turn everything took, in particularly lighthearted kitten-adoring Anders). And i was glad that i was done with that mess (even though i'm happy i played it) except... this was just the start to a bigger mess, and i'm actually looking forward to dive into that one.

I totally agree. Plot was great and atmospehere of conflict was created perfect. And Anders was truly tragic character for me.

Modifié par Aithieel, 14 mars 2011 - 04:17 .

[Nathan Redgrave]

Wynne wrote...

My character was a wisecracking mage with heart. She had a rivalry thing with Fenris which I loved, but when he left her she turned to Anders and found him more to her liking. A friendship romance. (I would've had her break up with Anders when he lied to her, especially since Fenris was better for her overall and I saw her as having always been in love with him but too proud to admit it for a while after he left her, but the game didn't give me the option, sadly.)

If you wind up siding with the mages, you do have the option to break off any romance you have with Anders just before the final battle, when your party members are all gathered in a room with Orsino. Just prior to the "Harvester" boss, that is.

[Faridle]

IanPolaris wrote...

Faridle,

With regard to blood mages, I'd say that Merril is living proof that bloodmagic is extremely dangerous but NOT intrinsically evil. The problem with blood magic is:

1. It's inherently more powerful than other forms of magic (although far less so in DA2 than DAO).
2. It does seem to make you more attractive to demons.
3. Because of the sorts of things it can do (and the sort of magic it is), it tends to attract mages who probably shouldn't be handling ANY magic without close supervision let alone bloodmagic (i.e. pyschotic criminal scum).

The point is that it was a Psychotic Necromancer that was responsible for what happened to Leandra, not Bloodmagic. Just as Guns never killed anyone, it's the person that chooses to pull the trigger that does, the same applies here.

-Polaris

I didn`t intend to type that bloodmagic is evil or anything but its the wielder who influence the defenition of the type of magic he uses. Nor did I type bloodmagic I typed blood mages and that I was put-off by them ergo disturbed by their reckless use of magic not the type, maybe I should have used another defenition like distubed mages who use powerful magic to their own dark intents on the cost of others unfortunately they are usually employing bloodmagic which fit the bill quite right and also makes the most accurate defenition of an powerful mage with questionable uses

Maybe I should have said evilmages. But anyhow it offers to much power and as the old saying goes power corrupts. 

Modifié par Faridle, 14 mars 2011 - 04:41 .

[Fredvdp]

I spared him because my other healer was already dead.

[Takeva_]

Aithieel wrote...

I was like "nooo, what have you done?!" but my character was in love with him so they run away together afterall.

Crrash wrote...

Wynne wrote...

DAO was supposed to be "dark fantasy"--it was not, it was just fantasy. This was dark fantasy. Pitch black. I'm still reeling from it.

definitely

I like Origins a lot more, but what DA2 did... it's incomparable and i would never imagine bioware would go that way. At the end of Origins i was for a long time sad that the journey was over, that i would no longer fight alongside my companions, nor talk to them. But Dragon Age 2 made me cry (for the loss, for the betrayal, for the dark turn everything took, in particularly lighthearted kitten-adoring Anders). And i was glad that i was done with that mess (even though i'm happy i played it) except... this was just the start to a bigger mess, and i'm actually looking forward to dive into that one.

I totally agree. Plot was great and atmospehere of conflict was created perfect. And Anders was truly tragic character for me.

lol you said something I didn't want to say. This was really emotional. Made me cry...alittle. All Hawke was trying to do was make a life for his/her family and practically lost them all for just trying to do that. I cried when Mama Hawke died. That was just so sad. But I seriously can't wait to see what happens next. Wonder where Bioware will take us next. I'm thinking either Orlais or the Imperium.

[Aithieel]

Takeva_ wrote...

Aithieel wrote...

I was like "nooo, what have you done?!" but my character was in love with him so they run away together afterall.

Crrash wrote...

Wynne wrote...

DAO was supposed to be "dark fantasy"--it was not, it was just fantasy. This was dark fantasy. Pitch black. I'm still reeling from it.

definitely

I like Origins a lot more, but what DA2 did... it's incomparable and i would never imagine bioware would go that way. At the end of Origins i was for a long time sad that the journey was over, that i would no longer fight alongside my companions, nor talk to them. But Dragon Age 2 made me cry (for the loss, for the betrayal, for the dark turn everything took, in particularly lighthearted kitten-adoring Anders). And i was glad that i was done with that mess (even though i'm happy i played it) except... this was just the start to a bigger mess, and i'm actually looking forward to dive into that one.

I totally agree. Plot was great and atmospehere of conflict was created perfect. And Anders was truly tragic character for me.

lol you said something I didn't want to say. This was really emotional. Made me cry...alittle. All Hawke was trying to do was make a life for his/her family and practically lost them all for just trying to do that. I cried when Mama Hawke died. That was just so sad. But I seriously can't wait to see what happens next. Wonder where Bioware will take us next. I'm thinking either Orlais or the Imperium.

Exacly. Everywone were so cruel and ruthless. This event with Hawke's mother... Wow, so sad! What Anders did only cumulated everything but anyway didn't make me kill him. I wanted to romance him since Awakening. 

[reddragon567]

 I thought it was going to be a poison gas or something. Not a huge KABOOM. 

I was pretty much "dangit anders...." 

[LobselVith8]

He attacked an institution that was involved in a millennia of slavery against his people. He watched as his former lover Karl begged him not to remain a "Templar puppet" anymore. He got information from Karl about the abuses and tyranny of the Kirkwall Circle, and we know from the DA2 codex that the tyranny is not isolated to one Circle. A cycle of slavery where mages have been tortured, raped, and had their humanity and agency stolen from them, and I'm not surprised Anders wanted to put an end to slavery. It's not as black and white as people try to make out. I see Anders as an abolitionist.

[fathomless33]

^^ i understand its not so black and white. It seems the game's theme is based around that. There is no right answer. Ander is a terrorist. Meredith is a crazed despot, and there are no other options. I really felt like they tied your hands with the either/or choices, no middle ground, and both sides being bad. I am sure that this is on purpose for the next game. (makes you choose either mages/templars)

The hard part is with deciding is that its not a huge widespread issue. Here in kirkwall the templars are corrupted and out of control. For the most part the mages are crazed and out of control (most mages in the game try to kill you whether you are helping or not)

I just cant agree with what anders did being noble. I mean even in america's history with slavery, terrible things were done, however if slaves would have bombed churches and schools, would that be acceptable? Taking down the slave owners, rising up and killing them yes, blowing up the church that their children and family goes to, unacceptable.

Killing civilians is never a good reason for doing anything. You cant call him an abolitionist. He is a terrorist. He did the most horrible thing he could think of to incite a war. His cause and intentions might have been just, but his actions were evil. Despicable acts in the name of a cause hinders the cause, does not help it. Through his stupid actions he accomplished the exact opposite of what he wanted. After something like that now all mages will be persecuted against.

[Aithieel]

Well at least problem was solved. It came to confrontation.

[Red Templar]

LobselVith8 wrote...

He attacked an institution that was involved in a millennia of slavery against his people.

He attacked a public building filled with innocent civilizions who were not part of any of the templar order's injustices - real or imagined. He didn't attack the templars, he didn't attack Meredith, he attacked someone who he knew represented a peaceful solution between the conflicting parties. He wilfully commited violence against civilians who were distinct from the organization he opposed. He did this to deliberately incite violence against the people he claimed to champion, so that those people who have their backs to the wall and have to practice violence themselves in order to avoid their own deaths.

That's the purest manifestation of terrorism; violence against innocents and non-combatents in order to provoke a reaction of fear and destablize society. Agree with him as you like, but don't white wash it at the same time as you complain about people taking "black and white" viewpoints that only you are guilty of.

Modifié par Red Templar, 14 mars 2011 - 05:39 .

[MICHELLE7]

One side will say terrorism...the other side will say freedom fighters...you never know what it's like until you stand in their shoes. But I will say this oppression is rarely overthrown without bloodshed.

[LeaveMeAlone9009]

Mr.House wrote...

So let's talk about this event in the game. What was your reaction to this? Did this change who you sided with? Where you upset? Did you kill Anders?

Lets discuss one of the games biggest twist.

As much as this game makes me go "aarrgghh.."

I was like "HAHAHAHAHAH DUUUUUUDE!!!" when that happened.

I killed him ofcourse, in my playthrough I was a warrior and my mom was murdered by a blood mage so I figured it fit my role to just hate all mages after that happened.

[cglasgow]

MICHELLE7 wrote...

One side will say terrorism...the other side will say freedom fighters...you never know what it's like until you stand in their shoes. But I will say this oppression is rarely overthrown without bloodshed.

I'm going to post a quote from someone, with only enough words snipped to keep you from identifying who it is, and then ask you for your reaction to it.   After you do that, I'll tell you where its from.

For the record, I do not agree with this guy.

There is an [snip] proverb that says "she accused me of having her malady, then snuck away." Besides, terrorism can be commendable and it can be reprehensible. Terrifying an innocent person and terrorizing him is objectionable and unjust, also unjustly terrorizing people is not right.
   
They rip us of our wealth, resources and [natural resources]. Our religion is under attack. They kill, murder our brothers. They compromise our honor and our dignity and dare we utter a single word of protest, we are called terrorists. Whereas, terrorizing oppressors and criminals and thieves and robbers is necessary for the safety of people and for the protection of their property. There is no doubt in this. Every state and every civilization and culture has to resort to terrorism under certain circumstances for the purpose of abolishing tyranny and corruption.

Modifié par cglasgow, 14 mars 2011 - 05:55 .

[cglasgow]

What, no takers? Fine, I suppose I should wait a little longer but meh, its lunchtime and I've got to go get something.

So, the answer to the above quote is 'Osama bin Laden, in his 1998 interview with ABC reporter John Miller'. Famous as its the last time Osama ever directly talked to the Western press.

http://www.pbs.org/w.../interview.html

People, think about this the next time you're all like 'one guy's terrorist is another guy's freedom fighter' and 'nobody ever got free without doing some terrorism'.

Modifié par cglasgow, 14 mars 2011 - 06:07 .

[LeaveMeAlone9009]

Fredvdp wrote...

I spared him because my other healer was already dead.

I LOL'D.

[Boss Fog]

My roommate was in the room while I was at this particular moment in the game. He looks at me from across the room and goes "what just happened?" My hand was covering my mouth and my eyes were O.O

Unfortunately, this act as sort of soured Anders for me; he is by far the creepiest most psychotic character in a video game I've ever played. I don't blame Anders though, I blame Justice. Even in Awakening he had a similar attitude. Without Justice, Anders would still be Anders from Awakening.

[Rinji the Bearded]

cglasgow wrote...

What, no takers? Fine, I suppose I should wait a little longer but meh, its lunchtime and I've got to go get something.

So, the answer to the above quote is 'Osama bin Laden, in his 1998 interview with ABC reporter John Miller'. Famous as its the last time Osama ever directly talked to the Western press.

http://www.pbs.org/w.../interview.html

People, think about this the next time you're all like 'one guy's terrorist is another guy's freedom fighter' and 'nobody ever got free without doing some terrorism'.

So, if you support Anders, you hate America!

Oh boy.  Way to bring real world politics into a videogame set in a fantasy world, pal.  If America stole Muslim babies from their mothers, locked them all up in a tower and told them they were all criminals and made them tranquil when they tried to speak up against their oppression, I'd support Osama Bin Laden, too. 

*CONTROVERSIAL STATEMENT OF THE YEAR*

Or maybe you need to chill out a little.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 14 mars 2011 - 06:29 .

[Red Templar]

RinjiRenee wrote...

cglasgow wrote...

What, no takers? Fine, I suppose I should wait a little longer but meh, its lunchtime and I've got to go get something.

So, the answer to the above quote is 'Osama bin Laden, in his 1998 interview with ABC reporter John Miller'. Famous as its the last time Osama ever directly talked to the Western press.

http://www.pbs.org/w.../interview.html

People, think about this the next time you're all like 'one guy's terrorist is another guy's freedom fighter' and 'nobody ever got free without doing some terrorism'.

So, if you support Anders, you hate America!

Oh boy.  Way to bring real world politics into a videogame, pal.  If America stole Muslim babies from their mothers, locked them all up in a tower and told them they were all criminals and made them tranquil when they tried to speak up against their oppression, I'd support Osama Bin Laden, too. 

*CONTROVERSIAL STATEMENT OF THE YEAR*

Or maybe you need to chill out a little.

That's not what he's saying. The point (if I read it correctly) is that terrorism is terrorism - regardless of how sympathetic the cause is. It is an illustration of how terrorist dogma tends to hit the same points, regardless of the cause. What Anders did was terrorism - you can't completely divorce it from real life terrorism, because the method and excuses are much the same between the two.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Red Templar wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

cglasgow wrote...

What, no takers? Fine, I suppose I should wait a little longer but meh, its lunchtime and I've got to go get something.

So, the answer to the above quote is 'Osama bin Laden, in his 1998 interview with ABC reporter John Miller'. Famous as its the last time Osama ever directly talked to the Western press.

http://www.pbs.org/w.../interview.html

People, think about this the next time you're all like 'one guy's terrorist is another guy's freedom fighter' and 'nobody ever got free without doing some terrorism'.

So, if you support Anders, you hate America!

Oh boy.  Way to bring real world politics into a videogame, pal.  If America stole Muslim babies from their mothers, locked them all up in a tower and told them they were all criminals and made them tranquil when they tried to speak up against their oppression, I'd support Osama Bin Laden, too. 

*CONTROVERSIAL STATEMENT OF THE YEAR*

Or maybe you need to chill out a little.

That's not what he's saying. The point (if I read it correctly) is that terrorism is terrorism - regardless of how sympathetic the cause is. It is an illustration of how terrorist dogma tends to hit the same points, regardless of the cause. What Anders did was terrorism - you can't completely divorce it from real life terrorism, because the method and excuses are much the same between the two.

My point in saying that was he was attacking that person who said "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom-fighter."  And this is completely true of Anders.  I would also say the Chantry's been a practioner of fear and terrorism for quite some time with all the hate-mongering going on, but there you go.  The definition of terrorism is not limited to a single act of it.

Simply put: he called out a person who had a valid point, and I was defending that other person.  I do hate it when people try to pull real life issues and try to apply them to video game stories.  Osama Bin Laden did not bomb the twin towers to force slavery to end --he did it to break American spirit.  Anders blew up a Chantry to take out the so-called mediating force that was not taking the issue at hand, not to cause fear. Fear was not his intention; actually, he WANTED open war.  They did inspire others to act, but the Muslim issue is way different from the situation with the mages.

These characters live in a different world than ours.  It's not so easy to compare the two.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 14 mars 2011 - 06:51 .

[Jimmy Fury]

cglasgow wrote...
People, think about this the next time you're all like 'one guy's terrorist is another guy's freedom fighter' and 'nobody ever got free without doing some terrorism'.

I kept meaning to say this yesterday but opted not to. Now however...

Contrary to what some people want to insist, it is ok to hold fiction and reality to different standards. Agreeing with, supporting, or even just sympathizing with the actions of a fictional character or organization does not mean you automatically have to support those same actions in real life.

Agreeing with Anders doesn't mean you have to like Bin Laden.
Thinking Meredith was right does not mean you have to think the inquisition was a good idea.
Liking the book Lolita doesn't make you a child predator.
Owning a collection of Tarantino movies doesn't mean you enjoy robbing diners.

It really is ok for someone's actual morality to be different than their imaginery morality.
I myself am a pacifist and consider almost all forms of violence archaic and useless. If I could only play games where the protagonist felt the same way.... I'd never get to play any games.

Modifié par Jimmy Fury, 14 mars 2011 - 06:46 .

[IanPolaris]

LobselVith8 wrote...

He attacked an institution that was involved in a millennia of slavery against his people. He watched as his former lover Karl begged him not to remain a "Templar puppet" anymore. He got information from Karl about the abuses and tyranny of the Kirkwall Circle, and we know from the DA2 codex that the tyranny is not isolated to one Circle. A cycle of slavery where mages have been tortured, raped, and had their humanity and agency stolen from them, and I'm not surprised Anders wanted to put an end to slavery. It's not as black and white as people try to make out. I see Anders as an abolitionist.

John Brown hung and deserved to hang.  Anders is a mage John Brown.  His cause in NO WAY justifies his actions.  This is pretty black-and-white where I sit.

-Polaris