543 réponses à ce sujet

[errant_knight]

I don't really think that was Anders. He died when he merged with Justice. I should have paid more attention when he said that they were one. Anders from Awakening would never have murdered all those innocents that must have been at or around the Chantry. That had to have taken out blocks of the city. Once he became Vengence, he had more in common with Loghain than Awakening Anders. Killing him was fairly horrible, but it was the only choice for my Hawke. He was a mass murderer.

Modifié par errant_knight, 14 mars 2011 - 08:32 .

[Gheist009]

Talking about Anders, I just well I was dumb founded, when Anders took me and made me distract the Grand Cleric  I thought Anders would have done some Terrorist thing right then and there, not well **** when the whole issue could have been resolved. Not sure how everyone else reacted to the guy who just killed hundreds in the chantry. But I would say that Justice made more sense then Anders, specially when Anders regained his "self" just eh surprising that the most "feminine" male character of the game would just do that.

Modifié par Gheist009, 14 mars 2011 - 08:32 .

[cglasgow]

My Hawke entirely supported Merrill in her mirror quest for love, but that's as far as he'd let the bad decisions take him.

His logic was 'Merrill has the right to risk herself if she chooses, even if I fear for her safety; the only thing I can do is give her all the love and support I can, so that she has something to live for besides the magic. That will be her best odds of not going abomination'. A rationalization, yes, and one that led to him standing amongst the ruins of a Dalish clan alongside Merrill and totally agreeing with her 'For the love of the gods, please let this just be a bad dream!'

But even that Hawke had a line that could not be crossed, and when Anders did, he went '... ok, its Murder Knife time.' And that line was 'if your brand of crazy is about making other people into sacrifices, instead of you into one'. Same reason why he deaded on up every blood mage he saw except Merrill.

He's sort of an individualist kinda guy like that.   Your right to indulge in freakiness stops at where the other guy's nose begins and so forth.

Modifié par cglasgow, 14 mars 2011 - 08:30 .

[Helen0rz]

that really pissed me off. I knew he was going to betray me bu I went with it since I'm romancing him...and when the boooom happened I just...ugh I really wante to punch him. I was siding with the Mage and everything! Broke my heart. I tol him to go because I couldn't kill him for the achievement but I was just too pissed at him. Oh and i had to go away with him to complete the achievement...double ugh.

My next playthrough, he's gonna die.

[Dean_the_Young]

Frankly, I'm puzzled why some people think 'terrorist' and 'freedom fighter' are mutually exclusive in the first place. And regardless of that facet, Anderson is entirely condemnable on either grounds.

As a terrorist, attacking a largely neutral party in a dispute between two others is condemnable on the face of it. The game goes to great extents to depict (and outright say) Meridith, and not the Chantry Mother, as having the de facto power in the city. Whatever relationship the Chantry and Templars should have, in Kirkwall it's apparent the Templars are a tail wagging the dog.

What Anders blew up wasn't the institution actively abusing it's power. Hell, one of the more common abuses that's been listed more than once here (rape) wasn't even an institutional action by Meridith: that was a rogue templar in and of himself. In a dispute between two distinct groups, Anders deliberately and purposely attacked a third group advocating compromise in order to spur violence.

As a terrorist, Anders is condemnable.

As a Freedom Fighter, Anders is downright incompetent. Nothing, at any point in his plan, suggested any sort of prior planning for how it was supposed to benefit the mages he saw as being oppressed. This isn't even about how the purpose was to start a war: this is about how he didn't have any plan or basis for why the war would be won in the first place! The mages have no allies. There's precious little, and less, grounds for thinking they could win in the first place.

Anders himself said it: it wasn't even about securing the mages their freedom, it was ending the injustice of the system.

If that injustice was ended by every mage being killed, that was acceptable as well. And in that respect, Anders is every bit condemnable as a freedom fighter as well. Freedom fighters are expected to pursue people's, well, lives and freedom.

[BubbleDncr]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

BubbleDncr wrote...

The whole ending of DA2 was me being "HOLY ****." I was in the same mindset Merril was in when we killed the keeper and the dalish elves. "Oh God, this has to be a dream, I want to wake up."

Everything was a result of everyone going crazy. But I was always siding with the mages, as I was a mage, and I was in a romance with Anders. I couldn't bring myself to kill him. I told him that he made things worse, and I imagine that for weeks after the final battle, my Hawke will still be randomly exploding at Anders for what he did. But I couldn't kill him.

It's funny how both my Warden and Hawke make terrible decisions based on love. My Warden lets a demon child be born, and Hawke lets a terrorist live.

Yours, too, huh?

My Hawke even takes Anders back. >_>

Yep, I took him back.

[Nathan Redgrave]

And Anders was all "oh we'll run off and fight for the rights of mages and have baby kittens together" and I wished the game had provided an "Um, no." response for that.

[Nathan Redgrave]

Helen0rz wrote...

that really pissed me off. I knew he was going to betray me bu I went with it since I'm romancing him...and when the boooom happened I just...ugh I really wante to punch him. I was siding with the Mage and everything! Broke my heart. I tol him to go because I couldn't kill him for the achievement but I was just too pissed at him. Oh and i had to go away with him to complete the achievement...double ugh.

You could have just reloaded after getting the Achievement, you know, gone back in time and told him to take a flying leap.

[MCPOWill]

Oh God, Anders was my Hawke's good friend and although I thought he deserved to die I couldn't kill him because he was a friend and a constant companion through the years... How do you kill your own friend? Even if he did blow up a building? That was my rationale, that on top of my LI, Merrill's opinion.

[LPPrince]

Pfft, Awakening Anders wouldn't of done that.

Anders died when he joined with Justice. If anything, our squadmate should've been called Vengeance, and I will ALWAYS kill him for becoming a terrorist.

[BubbleDncr]

Icyheron wrote...

I just sorta went jaw agape at the screen shouting bloody murder...........i still kept him with me though hes great

Yep, me too. Even now when I think about it I want to just start cursing loudly.

[ChrissyTina]

All I can say is *JAW DROPPED*. I knew he was up to *something* but had NO idea it that BIG of a something. Of course, I wanted to get my romantic achievement so I didn't off him, though I really wanted to! And I SUCK at remembering to save before key moments/decisions...sooooo...yeah....another play through for me!

[The Cannibal Factory]

I wonder if the main difference between Anders, and Wynne and Connor, is location. The Spirit of Faith lives in the Fade and reaches out to Wynne from there. The desire demon controlling Connor was Fade-based too.

Justice was thrown out of the Fade by a freak event; only demons usually seek to leave it, to "experience the mortal realm" like hedonists. But in Awakenings, Justice immediately starts to find the mortal realm extremely beautiful and alluring... and I think that's part of what caused him to prey on Anders' goodwill/thoughtlessness.

Anyway, to wrench this post back on topic, I had no anger at Anders for the Chantry bombing. I never hated Duncan for killing Sir Jory either. There has always been an underlying theme of "The Greater Good" or "Few for the Many" in this game. The Grand Cleric might have been a nice person, and wise enough to see through Sister Petrice, but she was still turning a blind eye and following the same old dogma; she was never going to change the world.

As the Blood Mage you can either kill or free in the Tower Quest in Origins says, you can't have a revolution without bloodshed and sacrifice. Andraste went to war and killed many, and became revered; Anders is no different at the end of the day, even if you disagree with his stance.

I have no hate for Anders at all really. Justice, I'm not so sure about... he seems to have forgotten all of the beauty and wonder he first saw when he was in Kristoff's body, and the power of love he experienced when he vowed to avenge Kristoff's wife, and has gone off the deep end.

[cglasgow]

I don't see where what Anders did remotely compares to Duncan. Duncan stabbed Jory because Jory tried to kill him (rewatch the sequence; Jory both draws steel first, and swings first).   It was self-defense.

We know from both Seneschal Varel's example and Anora's that its not Grey Warden policy to kill non-Grey Wardens who find out about the Joining; its not knowledge they prefer to have spread widely around, but its not something they murder over.

As the Blood Mage you can either kill or free in the Tower Quest in
Origins says, you can't have a revolution without bloodshed and
sacrifice.

No, you can't.   But to deny the difference between shedding innocent blood and guilty blood is to deny that there is a difference between innocent and guilty... which denial, ironically enough, makes a mockery of the concept of... Justice.

Modifié par cglasgow, 14 mars 2011 - 09:29 .

[fett51]

Red Templar wrote...

This rather assumes that 1) Meredith's suspicions were completely baseless, and 2) that the circle mages would have sit back and behaved themselves after Anders's terrorist spectacle. Maybe that is the case, but there is plenty of reason to doubt it. Kirkwall had a very real infestation of blood mages. Orsino had virtually no control over his Circle - and he himself was a blood mage sympathizer who protected his serial killer/necromancer pen pal because he found his research interesting. Orsino was putting his foot down and prepared to go head to head with Meredith over something as simple as having the tower searched - which gives a strong implication that there is something to hide. Crazy and possessed as she was... Meredith wasn't wrong about there being a very real problem among Kirkwall's mages. The fact that the streets were filled with abominations and demons that same night just proves it. If Meredith hadn't escalted things... do we really think that all those rebellious blood mages would have responded to the chantry being blown up by a rebel mage and said "I'm staying out of this one!". I don't, nor do I think Orsino could have held them back from a terrorist bandwagon reaction.

Orsino said he covered up for Quentin because he was afraid of giving Meredith more justification to screw over mages, and him being willing to go to the grand cleric to ensure the mages have privacy rights is hardly an implication of guilt, particularly so given he backed down after Meredith called the Right. As for the blood mages, most of them were seemingly in on Thrask and Grace's conspiracy and thusly dead. Any survivors would have been idiots to do anything other than keep their heads down until things blew over as they no longer stood a chance of beating the Templars. When Meredith reacted how she did, Anders won.

What I saw in the streets and in the gallows was that just one mage was capable of summoning multiple demons (that blood mage on the docks who summoned a dozen shades and a pride demon deserves special mention) and yet the demons didn't take the gallows like they took the circle tower in Ferelden. If you get Cullen's opinion in the templar ending he says the situation isn't as bad. That says most of the remaining mages exercised restraint even as they were being killed.

[CardonT]

Just a few words for Anders:

THAT. WAS. AWESOME! Let's do it again in Denerim, Bro!

[cglasgow]

fett51 wrote...
Orsino said he covered up for Quentin because he was afraid of giving Meredith more justification to screw over mages [snip]

I don't care why he did it; the instant Orsino made this decision, he decided that his political objective was more important than the lives of Quentin's innocent victims.  

Remember the sidequest with the magistrate's son?  Didn't we think the magistrate was a scumbag for always getting his son off the hook legally, so he was free to kidnap and torture (and it was heavily implied, rape) elven children again and again?   To quote Snarky Hawke: 'He's so concerned about keeping his job that he's not doing his job!'

Orsino is exactly the same kind of scumbag as that magistrate.  He kept the authorities from being able to find and arrest Quentin because he didn't want to deal with the fallout.  He covered up for blood mages rather than do his job of exposing them, and surprise surprise, he ended up with a Circle that was 95% blood mage.  

Consider as a contrast First Enchanter Irving.   Because Irving was making a good faith effort to root out his own blood mages instead of hide them from the templars, Knight-Commander Greagoir could trust him.   And that trust meant that the Ferelden Circle got way less boned over than the Kirkwall Circle did, not to mention saved them from a Rite of Annulment, when you were able to produce Irving so he could vouch the abomination problem was already solved.  Greagoir: 'OK, I'll take your word for it.'

So screw Orsino.   The idiot not only got innocent women all over the city killed, he ultimately got his own people all killed too.  Choosing to cover up their crimes only meant that the situation festered worse and worse, instead of being stopped before it boiled over.

Sure, Meredith didn't help, but do you think Elthina might not have been so undecided if one side was clearly right and one side was clearly wrong?  As is, Meredith could legitmately point out that the city was up to its ass in blood mages, and thus keep justifying most of her harsh measures, thus perpetuating the stalemate.  If we'd had an Irving in the Kirkwall Circle instead of an Orsino, the Grand Cleric would have been a lot sooner to tell Meredith 'The hell is wrong with you, woman?  The Kirkwall Circle is being totally reasonable, and yet you're still in paranoid mode!   Do I have to have Cullen take over while you go get a psych eval?'

And yes, I'd still be saying that even if Mama Hawke hadn't been one of Quentin's victims... although I will admit that the "It's personal!" factor changes it from a moral conviction to a moral conviction backed by white-hot rage.

Modifié par cglasgow, 14 mars 2011 - 10:28 .

[Red Templar]

fett51 wrote...

Orsino said he covered up for Quentin because he was afraid of giving Meredith more justification to screw over mages.

There is a remarkable disconnect between what Orsino says and what is actually true. Simply shielding Quentin for the sake of shielding mages is one thing - though even that much is horrific and unconscionable in the extreme. But from Orsino's note in Quentin's lair and his use of Quentin's magic, it is clear that Orsino was intentionally helping Quentin's necromantic expermiments and was excited about the necromantic breakthroughs that Quentin was making.

Orsino was not just a protector to Quentin, he was an accomplice. If not for Orsino's moral weakness, Leandra would not have gotten her head chopped off and reattached to the bride of Frankenstein.

Modifié par Red Templar, 14 mars 2011 - 10:20 .

[Jimmy Fury]

Speaking of blood magic (and because I don't want to make an entire thread to ask one teeny question that I can't seem to find an answer for) Does picking the blood mage spec have any effect on the story at all? Like do you get to sympathize with them or anything? Or does the dialogue stay the same including all the "Blood magic is evil!" lines.

Because I wonder if I might be more inclined to agree with Anders if I actually am a blood mage and not like... the only non-blood mage in the whole blasted city.

[cglasgow]

Ironic, given that the only other non-blood-mage is Anders.

(Or Bethany, if you're not a mage.)

[Red Templar]

Jimmy Fury wrote...

Speaking of blood magic (and because I don't want to make an entire thread to ask one teeny question that I can't seem to find an answer for) Does picking the blood mage spec have any effect on the story at all? Like do you get to sympathize with them or anything? Or does the dialogue stay the same including all the "Blood magic is evil!" lines.

Because I wonder if I might be more inclined to agree with Anders if I actually am a blood mage and not like... the only non-blood mage in the whole blasted city.

I don't believe so. I'm not 100% sure that there aren't any special dialogue options, but the specializations seem to exist in a bubble separate from the plot. I specced into templar and reaver with no justification for learning either skill, and never saw a single special dialogue option from either.

[Nimrodell]

Funny how people r quick to justify killing Anders and tend to forget how many lives he saved before it, in Awakening and then as a healer in Darktown... not to mention the fact that he can be friend and love of life. But hey, guess tis how it goes in life, we're too quick to forget all good one did. Hehe, and then the same ones will claim how they need more gray things in the story and they actually got it with Anders.

[RubiconI7]

I would have killed him, both him and Meredith's views were too extreme for me and I always thought a compromise would have been the best option. The Mother did not deserve that and he was trying to justify what he did with something along the lines of "a compromise will not work".

but...

Then I realized this ultra-left terrorist was my only mage with creation/spirit healer spec....So I was forced to keep him.

[Jimmy Fury]

Red Templar wrote...
I don't believe so. I'm not 100% sure that there aren't any special dialogue options, but the specializations seem to exist in a bubble separate from the plot. I specced into templar and reaver with no justification for learning either skill, and never saw a single special dialogue option from either.

Figured as much. Thanks though! Don't want to derail the topic or anything. I really want to sympathize with Anders because I like him as a character. I'm just trying to figure out how to get myself into the right mindset to do that.
Right now I'm playing a rogue so i'm hoping the "must defend little sister" emotion kicks in an makes me hate the Chantry enough to support the doom-beam.