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[Red Templar]

Nimrodell wrote...

Funny how people r quick to justify killing Anders and tend to forget how many lives he saved before it, in Awakening and then as a healer in Darktown... not to mention the fact that he can be friend and love of life.

As far as I'm concerned, Anders gets no credit for his contribution in Awakening. He joined the Wardens as a Get Out Of Jail Free Card, and got dragged along in the wake of better men. His commitment to the wardens clearly meant next to nothing, considering how he abandons the order without a backward glance and with what seems to be a complete absence of regret, and his contributions to the Grey Warden cause are overshadowed by the Grey Wardens he murdered when he first went abomination.

The people he heals in Darktown are a drop in the ocean compared to the bloodshed and death his terrorism provoked.

And as a friend or lover, his lies and berayal are made all the worse.

Personally, I'll never be able to justify not killing him while RPing any of character of mine.

Modifié par Red Templar, 14 mars 2011 - 11:12 .

[Boss Fog]

[quote]
So screw Orsino.   The idiot not only got innocent women all over the city killed, he ultimately got his own people all killed too.  Choosing to cover up their crimes only meant that the situation festered worse and worse, instead of being stopped before it boiled over.

Sure, Meredith didn't help, but do you think Elthina might not have been so undecided if one side was clearly right and one side was clearly wrong?  As is, Meredith could legitmately point out that the city was up to its ass in blood mages, and thus keep justifying most of her harsh measures, thus perpetuating the stalemate.  If we'd had an Irving in the Kirkwall Circle instead of an Orsino, the Grand Cleric would have been a lot sooner to tell Meredith 'The hell is wrong with you, woman?  The Kirkwall Circle is being totally reasonable, and yet you're still in paranoid mode!   Do I have to have Cullen take over while you go get a psych eval?'
[quote]

Couldn't agree with you more.  Irving and Greagoire >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Orsino and Meredith.  When both parties are dishonest with each other, nothing every goes right.  Don't circles have access to a little thing called "the litany of Andrala" (or whatever it's called).  Seriously, Orsino and Meredith are both HORRIBLE at their jobs.

Modifié par TelvanniWarlord, 14 mars 2011 - 11:13 .

[MCPOWill]

[quote]TelvanniWarlord wrote...

[quote]
So screw Orsino.   The idiot not only got innocent women all over the city killed, he ultimately got his own people all killed too.  Choosing to cover up their crimes only meant that the situation festered worse and worse, instead of being stopped before it boiled over.

Sure, Meredith didn't help, but do you think Elthina might not have been so undecided if one side was clearly right and one side was clearly wrong?  As is, Meredith could legitmately point out that the city was up to its ass in blood mages, and thus keep justifying most of her harsh measures, thus perpetuating the stalemate.  If we'd had an Irving in the Kirkwall Circle instead of an Orsino, the Grand Cleric would have been a lot sooner to tell Meredith 'The hell is wrong with you, woman?  The Kirkwall Circle is being totally reasonable, and yet you're still in paranoid mode!   Do I have to have Cullen take over while you go get a psych eval?'
[quote]

Couldn't agree with you more.  Irving and Greagoire >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Orsino and Meredith.  When both parties are dishonest with each other, nothing every goes right.  Don't circles have access to a little thing called "the litany of Andrala" (or whatever it's called).  Seriously, Orsino and Meredith are both HORRIBLE at their jobs.

[/quote]

But see Meredith was corrupted by the idols infusion into the blade she wielded which played off her fears and made her paranoid and dangerous. Yet Orsino dabbled a little in Blood magic before finally realizing it was wrong, but the influence was still their from the demon. Yes they were horrible at their jobs near the end but that wasn't always so.

[Myrmedus]

Let's be honest, Anders in DA2 is much different from DAA due to the spirit of Vengeance inside of him. Having said that, it takes extreme acts to cause extreme change, and often those acts are morally unjustifiable yet necessary nonetheless. I don't condone it from a moral point of view but it did give the Mages a fighting chance when otherwise I think they would've been ground down one by one.

Perhaps more intriguing though is: what the (*&% was that idol?!

Modifié par Myrmedus, 14 mars 2011 - 11:19 .

[Eveangaline]

It would have been a bigger twist if what the chantry mother had said at the end didn't make it totally obvious what he was going to do.

Still, I expected it to be a small explosion that took her out, not a bigass sky lasor. I killed him for it. Dick.

[cglasgow]

Quentin the serial killer is has been operating in the city for several years already even in Act 1, which means Orsino's already covering for him then.

Meredith doesn't get the idol and go crazy until act 2.

So we can say that Orsino was the ****up even before Meredith. Meredith was always a hard-liner, yes, but there's 'Cullen' hardliner and then there's 'Bat**** crazy Final Fantasy villainess with red glowing sword' hardliner. I get the impression that the idol turned her from door #1 to door #2.

[TJPags]

Red Templar wrote...

Nimrodell wrote...

Funny how people r quick to justify killing Anders and tend to forget how many lives he saved before it, in Awakening and then as a healer in Darktown... not to mention the fact that he can be friend and love of life.

As far as I'm concerned, Anders gets no credit for his contribution in Awakening. He joined the Wardens as a Get Out Of Jail Free Card, and got dragged along in the wake of better men. His commitment to the wardens clearly meant next to nothing, considering how he abandons the order without a backward glance and with what seems to be a complete absence of regret, and his contributions to the Grey Warden cause are overshadowed by the Grey Wardens he murdered when he first went abomination.

The people he heals in Darktown are a drop in the ocean compared to the bloodshed and death his terrorism provoked.

And as a friend or lover, his lies and berayal are made all the worse.

Personally, I'll never be able to justify not killing him while RPing any of character of mine.

So very well said there, Red Templar.

He probably killed as many in his explosion as he healed during his time in Kirkwall, not to mention how many are going to die because of what he started.

[cglasgow]

Not to mention, of course, that the # of murders you need to outweigh years worth of charity work is 'one'.

I mean, just one count of Murder One sends me to jail if I'm convicted, and in a just world, the jury won't care that I donated a zillion dollars to the Red Cross every year. Or that I'm a genius heart surgeon that saves a dozen lives every month in the operating room.

Nor should they.

You start deliberately killing innocent people, you step over a line.  And on the other side of that line, a lot of things stop being as important anymore.

Modifié par cglasgow, 14 mars 2011 - 11:32 .

[ObserverStatus]

personally, I enjoyed Anders's pretty light show. what a splendid display!

[C9316]

All I could think about after seeing that was "Goddammit Anders!"

[Helen0rz]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

Helen0rz wrote...

that really pissed me off. I knew he was going to betray me bu I went with it since I'm romancing him...and when the boooom happened I just...ugh I really wante to punch him. I was siding with the Mage and everything! Broke my heart. I tol him to go because I couldn't kill him for the achievement but I was just too pissed at him. Oh and i had to go away with him to complete the achievement...double ugh.

You could have just reloaded after getting the Achievement, you know, gone back in time and told him to take a flying leap.

Very true, I could've of...however I plan on playing it again but this time romancing Fenris, I can always give him the boot then. Fenris might be a bit too aggressive and mean, at least I know now he's not going to stab me in the back like that even AFTER I sided with him.

[fett51]

cglasgow wrote...

I don't care why he did it; the instant Orsino made this decision, he decided that his political objective was more important than the lives of Quentin's innocent victims.

 

I'm not arguing he did the right thing or even an excusable thing.  Just pointing out his motivation was more than just fascination with blood magic. 

Consider as a contrast First Enchanter Irving.   Because Irving was making a good faith effort to root out his own blood mages instead of hide them from the templars, Knight-Commander Greagoir could trust him.   And that trust meant that the Ferelden Circle got way less boned over than the Kirkwall Circle did, not to mention saved them from a Rite of Annulment, when you were able to produce Irving so he could vouch the abomination problem was already solved.  Greagoir: 'OK, I'll take your word for it.'

Forgetting that Orsino sent us after Thrask and Grace's conspiracy?  And I don't think we can blame Orsino for not trusting Meredith to have a level-headed response to the notion that there was a conspiracy to depose her.  Even Cullen was doubting her by that point.  Saying the circle was 95% blood mage is hyperbolic, particularly so as of when Meredith invoked the Right.  Most of the blood mages would've gone down with Grace and Thrask.  I only remember Orsino and the woman by the docks using blood magic past that point. 

Also, noting incompetence works both ways.  Meredith didn't catch Alrik's bunch, and there were mentions of templars raping mages at various points.  

Sure, Meredith didn't help, but do you think Elthina might not have been so undecided if one side was clearly right and one side was clearly wrong?  As is, Meredith could legitmately point out that the city was up to its ass in blood mages, and thus keep justifying most of her harsh measures, thus perpetuating the stalemate.

Stricter measures, maybe.  But murdering them all for something Anders did?  I can't imagine Elthina would've backed that anymore than she would've backed Sebastian's "kill the entire city" solution. 

Red Templar wrote...

There is a remarkable disconnect between what Orsino says and what is
actually true. Simply shielding Quentin for the sake of shielding mages
is one thing - though even that much is horrific and unconscionable in
the extreme. But from Orsino's note in Quentin's lair and his use
of Quentin's magic, it is clear that Orsino was intentionally helping
Quentin's necromantic expermiments and was excited about the necromantic
breakthroughs that Quentin was making.

I'd forgotten about that letter until now.  Reading it over (thank you codex) you're overstating his enthusiasm for the research, however he says he got books for Quentin which is completely damning.  He is absolutely an accomplice. 

So Orsino is an accomplice to the death of several innocent women.  Meredith is directly responsible for the death of dozens of innocent mages, and who knows how many unnecessary tranquilities.  Still not much of a choice. 

Modifié par fett51, 15 mars 2011 - 12:03 .

[Helen0rz]

errant_knight wrote...

I don't really think that was Anders. He died when he merged with Justice. I should have paid more attention when he said that they were one. Anders from Awakening would never have murdered all those innocents that must have been at or around the Chantry. That had to have taken out blocks of the city. Once he became Vengence, he had more in common with Loghain than Awakening Anders. Killing him was fairly horrible, but it was the only choice for my Hawke. He was a mass murderer.

I couldn't agree with you more.

His personality completely changed from Awakening to DA2. Maybe it's because it's personality is way too similar to Alistair's, but you know what? I'd take that rather than Vegence/Anders' wishy washy extreme views.

Same applies to Merrill then. In DA:O she was pretty level headed and protective of her people, and here we are in DA2, she's awakward to the point of annoying. Perhaps blood magic and conversing with pride demon does that to you or whatever

I didn't kill Anders though...I wanted a happy ending even though he totally broke mine/my Hawke's heart...and kill innocent people...and I wanted the achievement

[cglasgow]

fett51 wrote...

Forgetting that Orsino sent us after Thrask and Grace's conspiracy?

Nope.  It just felt to me like an attempt to either recruit us, or get us killed if we refused.

Which makes me wonder about Orsino even more.  I mean, it ain't like we've had people send us on quests that were supposed to be traps before.

And I don't think we can blame Orsino for not trusting Meredith to have a level-headed response to the notion that there was a conspiracy to depose her.

As you yourself concede, Meredith could have been relieved of command.  By either Cullen or the Grand Cleric.  If they'd had a reason to do so.

Continuing to act like... well, Meredith... even in the face of a much more reasonable First Enchanter who was actually doing his best to turn over his blood mages rather than hide them would be that reason.

Even Cullen was doubting her by that point.  Saying the circle was 95% blood mage is hyperbolic particularly so as of when Meredith invoked the Right.  Most of the blood mages would've gone down with Grace and Thrask. 

And what were all those abominations and blood mages we fought through on our way through Lowtown and the Docks, optical illusions? 

I only remember Orsino and the woman by the docks using blood magic past that point.

Your memory is incomplete.

Also, noting incompetence works both ways.

Nobody's defending Meredith, dude; not even me.   I'm just saying that it took both Orsino and Meredith and Anders to create this ultimate disaster, and out of those three people, Orsino is the only one without a legitimate insanity defense.

Which is why I want to make sure nobody forgets his own ****ups were a key part of this.   Because if he'd been doing his damn job all along, Irving-style, we'd never have had an act 3.   Meredith would very likely have been relieved of command in late act 2, because she'd have had no excuse to keep her job.

[Helen0rz]

fett51 wrote...

Sure, Meredith didn't help, but do you think Elthina might not have been so undecided if one side was clearly right and one side was clearly wrong?  As is, Meredith could legitmately point out that the city was up to its ass in blood mages, and thus keep justifying most of her harsh measures, thus perpetuating the stalemate.

Stricter measures, maybe.  But murdering them all for something Anders did?  I can't imagine Elthina would've backed that anymore than she would've backed Sebastian's "kill the entire city" solution. 
  

I agree. I think in Elthina's position...technically she can't pick a side because she must remain neutral for the sake of peace regardless of whether she agrees with either Meredith or Osino. 

Kirkwall is plagued with Blood mages because no one wants to be suffocated under Meredith's reign. blood magic was the only way for them to fend themselves, with the help of demons. I mean, of course the cemented Meredith's accusation, but she caused it. It's like an neverending circle. 

What Anders did was just too extreme and unexcusable. I don't care what his cause was, it doens't matter. they could've battled it out without Anders killing Elthina and whoever else that was in the Chantry. Very unnecessary. However, Sebastian's threat/promise does not make him noble either. Like you said, Elthina would've not back that up, but would Sebastian listen though? both men have the wrong idea when it comes to Justice. Sebastian, if he were to follow up on that promise, it makes him no better than Anders, pretty much done to his level

[Layn]

Helen0rz wrote...
However, Sebastian's threat/promise does not make him noble either. Like you said, Elthina would've not back that up, but would Sebastian listen though? both men have the wrong idea when it comes to Justice. Sebastian, if he were to follow up on that promise, it makes him no better than Anders, pretty much done to his level

when he said he'd come with the might of starkhaven to hunt down Anders, i just thought "there you go breaking your vows and promises again".

i feel a bit responsible of what became of Anders. i get the feeling, that because he joined up and became more active in everything (although he was already active before, freeing some mages) the Justice/Anders situation became much worse, leading up to what we saw.
unless... is it possible to not recruit anders at all?

[Helen0rz]

Crrash wrote...

Helen0rz wrote...
However, Sebastian's threat/promise does not make him noble either. Like you said, Elthina would've not back that up, but would Sebastian listen though? both men have the wrong idea when it comes to Justice. Sebastian, if he were to follow up on that promise, it makes him no better than Anders, pretty much done to his level

when he said he'd come with the might of starkhaven to hunt down Anders, i just thought "there you go breaking your vows and promises again".

Pretty much right? He went from "I dont care about my country, other noblemen can claim the throne all they want" to "i'm gonna go claim what's rightfully mine and come back with an army and kill you all!"...so all in all in the end...HE STILL DOESN'T CARE FOR HIS PEOPLE OR COUNTRY.

I think Anders did everything on his own. No one told him to bomb up the Chantry, he did that all by himself and pretty much dragged me into it. That, is unacceptable.

i feel a bit responsible of what became of Anders. i get the feeling, that because he joined up and became more active in everything (although he was already active before, freeing some mages) the Justice/Anders situation became much worse, leading up to what we saw.
unless... is it possible to not recruit anders at all?

[cglasgow]

Nope. You need Anders to get the Deep Roads map to go on Bartrand's expedition to get out of Act 1. Bioware was clever that way.

Modifié par cglasgow, 15 mars 2011 - 12:36 .

[LobselVith8]

Cglasglow, what's your obsession with comparing Anders to a religious fanatic who is nothing like him? Anders attacked a building filled with members of a religious order who enslaved his people for nearly a millennia. All you've done is intentionally conflate the end of slavery with the actions of a religious fanatic who is nothing like him. Anders wanted to stop the torture, rape, tranquility, and murder of mages. Considering it had gone on for hundreds of years until Anders did something about it, I don't see why you try to demonize him. In fact, considering the Chantry is full of religious zealots who terrorized and raped people just like the man and the group you keep referencing, I don't think you want to continue going down this path of bringing up real world groups with a game that's too radically different to fairly compare it with.

[cglasgow]

Cglasgow, what's your obsession with comparing Anders to a religious fanatic who is nothing like him?

What's your obsession in ignoring that Anders is visibly insane and almost murdered an innocent girl right in front of us just because she was scared of him?

Oh, and the reason people keep making the comparision is because of their similar methods and their similar tastes in rhetoric and rationalization. So since the shoe fits, Anders can wear it.

[catgirl789]

I was very pissed at Anders. I believe my first thought was "ANDERS YOU IDIOT!!!!!" and my next thought was "He used me. I trusted him, thought he asked me to distract the cleric so he could get a rare ingredient or something to seperate him from Justice and he betrayed me."

When I sided with the mages I kept him with me because I didn't want to let him out of my sight a la the old "Keep your friends close and enemies closer" creed and I killed him for the same reason when I sided with the templars. Who knows what kind of havoc he would create on his own? Imagine the crazy mage rallies he could start? Though martyring him could have had the same effect, at least he wouldn't be actively involved.

[Algus]

I knifed him even though I had been romancing him. That was just to much. I kept my decision to side with the mages (which I ended up regretting thanks to not as stable as he looks First Enchanter Orsino) because it was evident who was responsible and killing ALL of the Mages was to much.

[Flashflame58]

I think my jaw landed somewhere in the Deep Roads during that scene.

I was super pissed off at Anders but I was romancing him at the time. So I forgave him and Sebastian left. I am killing him everytime from now on.

[fett51]

[quote]cglasgow wrote...

Nope.  It just felt to me like an attempt to either recruit us, or get us killed if we refused.[/quote]

That's implying he was in on it.  If so it was exceptionally stupid of him to set us on the trail of people who'd just taken a hostage.  Doubly so given blood mages overturning the Templars would've brought the entire Chantry down on Kirkwall.  More likely it was what he said:  he was afraid if she found out she'd use it as an excuse to call for the Right rather than investigate it.  Wasn't exactly far off with that one was he? 

[quote]cglasgow wrote...

As you yourself concede, Meredith could have been relieved of command.  By either Cullen or the Grand Cleric.  If they'd had a reason to do so.

Continuing to act like... well, Meredith... even in the face of a much more reasonable First Enchanter who was actually doing his best to turn over his blood mages rather than hide them would be that reason.[/quote]

Cullen expressed doubts, as did Elthina.  I can't speak to the grand cleric's mind, but Cullen was paranoid following his experience in the ferelden circle, which is why him expressing doubts is significant.  Thrask and other Templars were trying to undermine Meredith for years, and had Grace not gone crazy (and Thrask not been an idiot) things might have turned out very differently. 

[quote]cglasgow wrote...

And what were all those abominations and blood mages we fought through on our way through Lowtown and the Docks, optical illusions?  [/quote]

As I said, I only recall one blood mage in the streets, and even if I'm forgetting a couple, I can certainly attest the majority of mages we fought did not use blood magic or summon packs of demons, or do much of anything apart from cast basic spells.  And we saw what was up with the abominations: the templars cornered a mage and she lost control.  That's no reason to suspect she was a blood mage or even a libertarian.  Just wonder how she passed her harrowing.

[/quote]Which is why I want to make sure nobody forgets his own ****ups were a
key part of this.   Because if he'd been doing his damn job all along,
Irving-style, we'd never have had an act 3.   Meredith would very
likely have been relieved of command in late act 2, because she'd have
had no excuse to keep her job.
[/quote]

Decimus and Grace fled in Act 1, that evidently was the start of the blood magic in the circle.  How do we know Orsino is more culpable for that than Irving was for Uldred?  Yes, he did study blood magic, but we don't have any evidence he shared what he knew with anyone, least of all Grace and that bunch. 

[quote]
Helen0rz wrote...

What Anders did was just too extreme and unexcusable. I don't care what his cause was, it doens't matter. they could've battled it out without Anders killing Elthina and whoever else that was in the Chantry. Very unnecessary. However, Sebastian's threat/promise does not make him noble either. Like you said, Elthina would've not back that up, but would Sebastian listen though? both men have the wrong idea when it comes to Justice. Sebastian, if he were to follow up on that promise, it makes him no better than Anders, pretty much done to his level
[/quote]
 
Worse.  Anders blew up people who supported a system he hated, Sebastian was talking about killing a city (where the vast majority were completely opposed to what Anders did) just because they were in the same place, to say nothing of the difference in number of people who would die.  Was very annoyed I didn't get to call him on that.