543 réponses à ce sujet

[Raikas]

Red Templar wrote...


I am noticing a recurring fallacy on this board... one type of killing is not the same as another type of killing. Murder is completely different from "collatoral damage", is completely different from self-defense, is completely different manslaughter. We have these definitions for a reason.

We have these definitions in the 21st century real world (and the legal definitions may vary depending on your location) - but that's not the world of the game.

[Red Templar]

Hervoyl wrote...
We have these definitions in the 21st century real world (and the legal definitions may vary depending on your location) - but that's not the world of the game.

But we are discussing these acts - and people are making excuses for these acts - in a real world, modern forum. I am sure that Thedas has no real established idea of what "terrorism" is, since it has probably never been a big deal before. It doesn't change that it is still terroism.

[Raikas]

Red Templar wrote...

But we are discussing these acts - and people are making excuses for these acts - in a real world, modern forum. I am sure that Thedas has no real established idea of what "terrorism" is, since it has probably never been a big deal before. It doesn't change that it is still terroism.

Well, I don't know about anyone else, but I've been attempting to talk about it from the perspective of Hawke and/or the characters within that world.  

After all, there are mercy killings in the game that are presented as the moral thing to do (or at the very least a necessary thing), and while one could argue about them from a modern legal standpoint, I don't see how that effects anything from a character/RP standpoint.

Modifié par Hervoyl, 15 mars 2011 - 05:16 .

[LobselVith8]

SpeakingInSilence, he targeted members of an organization that enslaved his people for centuries. How are they neutral? People seem to love vilifying Anders and conjuring real world examples that specifically leave out that these were members of an organization that practiced slavery against his people. What happened was that a former slave attacked an institution of slavery.

[Dean_the_Young]

LobselVith8 wrote...

SpeakingInSilence, he targeted members of an organization that enslaved his people for centuries.

House arrest and quarantine are not slavery.

Nor is the Chantry of Kirkwall the Templars of Kirkwall. Two distinct groups in the context that matters, in the same sense that the Circle of Kirkwall is not the Chantry of Kirkkwall, and not the Templars of Kirkwall, even though the Chantry (religious arm), Templars (military arm), and Circle (Magi Arm) are all a part of the same overall institution (the entire Andrastian Chantry).

How are they neutral?

Because the Grand Cleric is not the same as the Knight Commander, and is in a position to moderate between the Circle and the Templars.

Staying out of a dispute is the very definition of neutral, even if/when it favors one group more than another.

People seem to love vilifying Anders and conjuring real world examples that specifically leave out that these were members of an organization that practiced slavery against his people. What happened was that a former slave attacked an institution of slavery.

The insitution of mage suppression is the Templar Order and, to some respects, the Circle itself, not the Chantry (religious arm).

Nor did his attack, you know, actually help anyone.

[LobselVith8]

Having no control over your life isn't simply house arrest, Dean. You have mages who are getting raped, tortured, made tranquil (which Anders' friend compared to being a "Templar puppet" when he regains control of his senses), or killed. The mages are slaves of the Chantry, and this is enforced by the military arm of their religious order. Even Hawke can address it as slavery when he or she speaks to Fenris and sides with the Circle of Kirkwall against Meredith. The incident inspires mages to free themselves from subjugation, which is precisely what Varric tells us happened as a direct result of Anders "red beam." Every mage who isn't getting raped or tortured by a ruling templar owes their freedom to Anders.

[Jimmy Fury]

Red Templar wrote...
Andraste was a rebel; she rose up against the Imperium. Andraste was not a terrorist, because she did not deliberately target innocents to provoke a reaction from Tevinter.

As far as we know at least. Everything we know about Andraste was told to us by the Chantry. If you ask the imperium they may have a very different story.
Heck for all we know Flemeth is actually Andraste and everything the Chantry preaches is a lie.

LobselVith8 wrote...
People seem to love vilifying Anders and conjuring real world examples that specifically leave out that these were members of an organization that practiced slavery against his people.

And you seem to love dehumanizing everyone in the Chantry regardless of their individual stance on magic, mages, the circle, or even the Chantry itself.
Every time you comment you speak about the Chantry as an institution and willfully ignore the fact that the building was full of individuals when it was destroyed. There were servants and visitors who had commited no crime against mages. Not to mention all of the people outside the chantry who were killed in the blast and subsiquent fighting in the streets.

Modifié par Jimmy Fury, 15 mars 2011 - 06:13 .

[Dean_the_Young]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Having no control over your life isn't simply house arrest, Dean.

It pretty much is. In fact, it's the entire point of house arrest and quarantine: external forces imposing significant restrictions on where you can be, what you can do, and how you can do it.

You have mages who are getting raped, tortured, made tranquil (which Anders' friend compared to being a "Templar puppet" when he regains control of his senses), or killed.

And yet half of what you mention is against the Templars own rules, while the other half is an abuse of otherwise compromise solutions.

The mages are slaves of the Chantry,

Not for a meaningful definition of the word 'slave'. Victim is applicable. Prisoner is accurate.

and this is enforced by the military arm of their religious order.

Which the Chantry (religious arm) is not.

Even Hawke can address it as slavery when he or she speaks to Fenris and sides with the Circle of Kirkwall against Meredith.

And Hawke can not address it as slavery, and side with the Templars against the Circle.

The incident inspires mages to free themselves from subjugation, which is precisely what Varric tells us happened as a direct result of Anders "red beam."

No, it inspires mages to get themselves killed in a foolish suicidal war they will not win.

Varric tells us the mages are in rebellion, not that they are free, and nothing to suggest that they will win any sort of ideal freedom: if not the Templars, and the masses of the nations, then either the Tevinter or Qunari.

Every mage who isn't getting raped or tortured by a ruling templar owes their freedom to Anders.

Bull****.

Every mage who isn't getting raped or torture has people who actually brought the accusations and the perpetrators of those crimes, illegal to the Templars themselves, to light to thank. Anders was irrelevant, and has far more mages deaths on his hands than anything good.

[Dean_the_Young]

Jimmy Fury wrote...

Red Templar wrote...
Andraste was a rebel; she rose up against the Imperium. Andraste was not a terrorist, because she did not deliberately target innocents to provoke a reaction from Tevinter.

As far as we know at least. Everything we know about Andraste was told to us by the Chantry. If you ask the imperium they may have a very different story.
Heck for all we know Flemeth is actually Andraste and everything the Chantry preaches is a lie.

And maybe Hawke is actually conspiring to commit genocide against every living thing in existence. And maybe the ArchDemon just wanted a tea party in Denerim.

In the lack of anything supporting such alternatives, however, they are meaningless.

LobselVith8 wrote...
People seem to love vilifying Anders and conjuring real world examples that specifically leave out that these were members of an organization that practiced slavery against his people.

And you seem to love dehumanizing everyone in the Chantry regardless of their individual stance on magic, mages, the circle, or even the Chantry itself.
Every time you comment you speak about the Chantry as an institution and willfully ignore the fact that the building was full of individuals when it was destroyed. There were servants and visitors who had commited no crime against mages. Not to mention all of the people outside the chantry who were killed in the blast and subsiquent fighting in the streets.

No no no.

Mages are individuals who are unjustly oppressed, even if they are guilty of what they are accused.

The Chantry is a monolithic organization devoid of nuance so long as it does not actively side with the mages. (Which, somehow, would make it neutral.)

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 15 mars 2011 - 06:16 .

[Specimen 47]

SpeakingInSilence wrote...

I don't even know how someone could justify what Anders did.

he's your only healer in your entire group of companions if you're not a mage.

there, justification done

[KAAurious]

Given what Anders did, I'm surprised that Flemeth didn't have more to say to him. Since it seems like he was the one to throw down the gauntlet of change. Kind of a shock given how he was in Awakening.

By all accounts we never hear an equal ground setting for mages. They are either prisoners, victims or the ruling party making everyone's lives a living hell. It's like giving them any amount of freedom is a surefire way to lead to them making terrible decisions and abusing their gift. While this is not the case for all mages, it happens. However, if they aren't free then they are suffering and all individuals who are born with the gift of magic are nearly condemned for living. Be it through the rite of tranquility, for showing "signs" or living in a circle under the ever watchful eye of the templars.

There is no even ground. I'm sure that Anders thinks that every single mage will do the right thing, but he seems to forget his history and what came out of the Tevinter Imperium.

[TexasToast712]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

SpeakingInSilence, he targeted members of an organization that enslaved his people for centuries.

House arrest and quarantine are not slavery.

Nor is the Chantry of Kirkwall the Templars of Kirkwall. Two distinct groups in the context that matters, in the same sense that the Circle of Kirkwall is not the Chantry of Kirkkwall, and not the Templars of Kirkwall, even though the Chantry (religious arm), Templars (military arm), and Circle (Magi Arm) are all a part of the same overall institution (the entire Andrastian Chantry).

How are they neutral?

Because the Grand Cleric is not the same as the Knight Commander, and is in a position to moderate between the Circle and the Templars.

Staying out of a dispute is the very definition of neutral, even if/when it favors one group more than another.

People seem to love vilifying Anders and conjuring real world examples that specifically leave out that these were members of an organization that practiced slavery against his people. What happened was that a former slave attacked an institution of slavery.

The insitution of mage suppression is the Templar Order and, to some respects, the Circle itself, not the Chantry (religious arm).

Nor did his attack, you know, actually help anyone.

Ah Dean the Young, finally a voice of reason in this thread. I thought you stick mainly to the ME2 forums.

[Jimmy Fury]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
And maybe Hawke is actually conspiring to commit genocide against every living thing in existence. And maybe the ArchDemon just wanted a tea party in Denerim.
In the lack of anything supporting such alternatives, however, they are meaningless.

I wasn't attempting to argue that it was true, just that comparing Anders to Andraste isn't an effective analogy for either side of the debate. We have no idea what Andraste actually did so nobody can say for certain that her rebellion was entirely peaceful.

The rest i hope was sarcasm...

Modifié par Jimmy Fury, 15 mars 2011 - 07:03 .

[football_punk64]

I was a mage. I looked him over and thought Anders would look more Fashionable with a knife in his back. Then took the ironic choice and sided with my bro and the templars. Mage fights mage!

Modifié par football_punk64, 15 mars 2011 - 07:10 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Jimmy Fury wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
And maybe Hawke is actually conspiring to commit genocide against every living thing in existence. And maybe the ArchDemon just wanted a tea party in Denerim.
In the lack of anything supporting such alternatives, however, they are meaningless.

I wasn't attempting to argue that it was true, just that comparing Anders to Andraste isn't an effective analogy for either side of the debate. We have no idea what Andraste actually did so nobody can say for certain that her rebellion was entirely peaceful.

The rest i hope was sarcasm...

Of course! Just having some fun with you. (Insert jovial smilie.)

All things said about going what we have to go off of, and not hypotheticals, I agree: we can bring far more relevant examples to the discourse.

[Dean_the_Young]

TexasToast712 wrote...

Ah Dean the Young, finally a voice of reason in this thread. I thought you stick mainly to the ME2 forums.

I do, but mainly because Mass Effect had more relevant topics I wanted to talk about.

Avoided DA2 forum like the plague to avoid spoilers. Now that I've beat the game, there's a lot of fresh things to talk about.

[LobselVith8]

Considering Hawke and others can identify the Chantry controlled Circle as slavery, I don't see the point in contesting the definition when the actual game allows us to identify the situation as one of slavery. Whether you agree with Anders or not is clearly a choice of opinion, and I identified with his desire to dismantle a thousand years of mage slavery that was done by the Chantry specifically, and enforced by the military arm of their religious order.

Also, considering it took a thousand years before someone like Anders showed the mages you can stand up to the Chantry, you're welcome to say bull all you want, but he's the reason the mages of the Circles found the courage to break free from the Chantry and emancipate themselves.

[renaissancemom]

"Our objective is complete freedom, justice and equality by any means necessary." - Malcom X and, well Anders. Anders declared WAR on the Chantry (capital C) and declared that if you're not with us (Mages) you are against us. The innocents in the chantry (lowercase c) that perished with the red beam were collateral damage in a war, plain and simple, but they supported the Chantry. No one likes when innocents die in a war, but it happens all the time. It was his intent to start a revolution and shake the very foundations of Thedan society at which the Chantry is the core and that's what he did. Mage suppression/oppression is written into the very religion for crying out loud. The red beam was not an act of terrorism by definition as I don't believe the purpose of this act was to incite terror. He wanted to show that there could be no further compromise. They were past sit-ins and non-violent protests. None of that would have worked. The Chantry was too powerful and so he sought to rally his people and give them courage - which is exactly what he did. Fighting for civil rights is not always pretty. Anders had the courage through Justice to do what was necessary to stand up for himself and mages across Thedas. Do people really think some sort of passive aggressive protest was more apropos? The mages were in slavery. Period. It was so bad, they didn't NEED chains. It isn't just their emotions that were taken when they're made tranquil, but their very souls - the essence of who they are as people. That's why the tranquil perform all of the menial tasks for the templars, like being Meredith's assistant for example. I don't care. That sure sounds a lot like slavery to me. What Anders did is no different than anyone else in history that has led a revolt against tyranny - NOT terrorism.

[Dean_the_Young]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering Hawke and others can identify the Chantry controlled Circle as slavery, I don't see the point in contesting the definition when the actual game allows us to identify the situation as one of slavery. Whether you agree with Anders or not is clearly a choice of opinion, and I identified with his desire to dismantle a thousand years of mage slavery that was done by the Chantry specifically, and enforced by the military arm of their religious order.

Hawke can be wrong about a number of things, so what does him calling something, something, make it so? Hawke, and others, can also not call it slavery.

Infact, the one actual slave in the game, Fenris, explicitly rejects it when he goes to the Gallows. So either Fenris is wrong, or Anders is wrong.

Also, considering it took a thousand years before someone like Anders showed the mages you can stand up to the Chantry, you're welcome to say bull all you want, but he's the reason the mages of the Circles found the courage to break free from the Chantry and emancipate themselves.

Anders isn't the rallying cry of the mages, though. Hawke is. Neither could Anders have succeded in a vacuume.

Which was rather the point of the whole 'let's tell this story from the beginning' spiel: that the entire current situation was the result of a number of factors. Had Meredith not responded as she did, Anders little massacre wouldn't have necessarily sparked the Annullment. Had Meredith not been under the influence of the idol, she might not have invoked the Annullment. Had Hawke not gone to Anders and found the idol in the first place, Meredith wouldn't have gotten the idol. Had Anders not been spared (twice) by the Warden, Anders wouldn't have gotten away. And had Loghain not betrayed Cailen as he did, the Warden never would have been in such a position in the first place.

But at least we can all agree that, at heart, it's all the fault of the blasted Orlesians. If they hadn't invaded Ferelden, Loghain wouldn't have been all paranoid and betrayed Cailen.

[Dean_the_Young]

renaissancemom wrote...

"Our objective is complete freedom, justice and equality by any means necessary." - Malcom X and, well Anders.

A rather ironic quote to start with, because Malcom X later renounced violence, split with his hardline views, and was in part murdered for it.

[Medhia Nox]

You can follow MalcomX - I'll follow Mahatma Gandhi (who's people suffered FAR more than these fictional mages).

"I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent." Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi

That's a compelling character to me - not another angry at the world terrorist.

Renaissancemom - educate yourself about Gandhi, then refrain from ever making your last sentence ever again. Malcom X did nothing compared to the achievements of the Mahatma. Martin Luther King even based his non-violent views on the Mahatma. Your comment is an insult to those who achieve freedom the right way - not the evil way.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 18 mars 2011 - 05:48 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Gandhi was a far more mixed bag in context and politics when you examine him in detail, but it's hard to object that he actually achieved far more with less violence than Anders.

Mind you, the context that allowed Gandhi to succeed was numerous, extensive, and not necessarily a guaranteed path to victory. But Gandhi understood something: it is possible to turn weakness into victory by not retaliating, and having rights infringed doesn't mean you can't succed if you live through it.

When you consider how even hardliner Cullen was more than a little inclined to accept prisoners and spare mages when they offered no resistence and surrendered themselves? Orisino's blood magic saved no one: leading every mage to kneel, and not resist, would have effected the Templars far more.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

The most jawing dropping experience for me thus far. Literally, my jaw dropped. Then I yelled OMG outloud. I knew what he was planning was bad, I never expected that. I killed him. I didn't want too. I understood his quest in life, but what he did was wrong, that was hard to do and to watch his death. I almost cried. Why did Anders kill the girl in the chantry? I felt that wasn't explained or I missed that somehow?

[LobselVith8]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering Hawke and others can identify the Chantry controlled Circle as slavery, I don't see the point in contesting the definition when the actual game allows us to identify the situation as one of slavery. Whether you agree with Anders or not is clearly a choice of opinion, and I identified with his desire to dismantle a thousand years of mage slavery that was done by the Chantry specifically, and enforced by the military arm of their religious order.

Hawke can be wrong about a number of things, so what does him calling something, something, make it so? Hawke, and others, can also not call it slavery.

Infact, the one actual slave in the game, Fenris, explicitly rejects it when he goes to the Gallows. So either Fenris is wrong, or Anders is wrong.

Fenris explicitly rejects Anders' assertion on the sole basis of mages being at risk of possession. He says, "Slaves do not attract demons that try to possess them. " That line focuses solely on the argument made for imprisoning mages. Fenris never actually contests that the Chantry controlled Circles are slavery. In fact, he acknowledges that mages aren't free because he says in another conversation with Anders that "the moment they are free, mages will make themselves magisters. "

Fenris also sides with the mages when you specifically address the Chantry controlled Circle as slavery if he initially sided with Meredith and the templars. I think the storyline allows us to have the view that the Chantry controlled Circles are slavery given that Hawke can say it.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Also, considering it took a thousand years before someone like Anders showed the mages you can stand up to the Chantry, you're welcome to say bull all you want, but he's the reason the mages of the Circles found the courage to break free from the Chantry and emancipate themselves.

Anders isn't the rallying cry of the mages, though. Hawke is. Neither could Anders have succeded in a vacuume.

Which was rather the point of the whole 'let's tell this story from the beginning' spiel: that the entire current situation was the result of a number of factors. Had Meredith not responded as she did, Anders little massacre wouldn't have necessarily sparked the Annullment. Had Meredith not been under the influence of the idol, she might not have invoked the Annullment. Had Hawke not gone to Anders and found the idol in the first place, Meredith wouldn't have gotten the idol. Had Anders not been spared (twice) by the Warden, Anders wouldn't have gotten away. And had Loghain not betrayed Cailen as he did, the Warden never would have been in such a position in the first place.

But at least we can all agree that, at heart, it's all the fault of the blasted Orlesians. If they hadn't invaded Ferelden, Loghain wouldn't have been all paranoid and betrayed Cailen.

I can't believe the First Warden sent Loghain to Montsimmard. I'm sure Empress Celene must have loved that..

I recall King Alistair telling Hawke about how some Orlesians are trying to reclaim Ferelden, and all I can imagine is how well the plans of some Orlesian nobles to re-take Ferelden are going to go when the Hero of River Dane is at the heart of their city with a number of Grey Wardens.

[momartir]

Ander is Church blowin' hero, 'nuff said.