543 réponses à ce sujet

[TexasToast712]

LobselVith8 wrote...

DieHigh2012 wrote...

1. No it is not, the tranquils loss their emotions causing them to act rationally. Rape is an act aginst the will of the one being assalted. If you are right and there is no will...

Forcing yourself on a person without their consent is rape, period. Furthermore, why are you contesting what we're told in two of Anders quests, where we either directly see or overhear that the tranquil have no agency over their lives?

DieHigh2012 wrote...

2. You are forgetting the mage that ran to the demons only becuse she wanted the mages to rule Thedas. The excuse of they are evil so that makes it ok for me to be evil doesn't fly.

You're commenting that there are a few blood mages we encounter from the Circle, and I'm addressing that there are many mages who resort to blood magic as a direct response to the oppressive enviornment of the Circle that Anders refers to as slavery. I'm not saying all mages turn to blood magic for this reason, or even that all templars abuse their position of authority, but it happens often enough that I think it should be addressed when we factor in why mages want to be free from the Chantry and its templars.

DieHigh2012 wrote...

3. That is funny

Funny, but true. The Inglorious Basterds blew up a building full of people who were working for an organization that oppressed and killed their people. Anders is a Thedas version of one of the Inglorious Basterds.

DieHigh2012 wrote...

4. Because one little angry mage (that "good guy" Anders) can blow up a huge building with minimal effort. Just think of what a 'bad guy" mage would do with that kind of destructive power.....

You mean gathering ingredients from all over which were the actual catalyst, and igniting it with magic? I can also see what a "bad guy" would do with power when Merrill orders the senseless murder of every man, woman, and child in Kirkwall if they're a mage.

DieHigh2012 wrote...

4. He has no discipline, and has weak character. He might be able to comand mighty magics, but without discipline and stringth of charcater he will fall easly. Again ask any of your companions that turn on you in the fade.

You don't know that the Orlesian mage has no discipline. You're making baseless assumptions simply because he's inexperienced with the real world, having lived in the brutal enviornment of the Gallows all his life. You have no idea what sort of magical experience he has to make such a claim.

I love how you go on and on about how mages are opressed and abused, blah, blah, blah. This is true, IN KIRKWALL, not all circles are as bad. Free mages results in a establishment such as the Tevinter Imperium. They support Blood Magic in Tevinter and are willing to sacrifice others for power. I agree some mages in some Circles are abused but the alternative is much worse. Dragon Age II shows that mages will resort to blood magic when in a losing battle.

Modifié par TexasToast712, 13 mars 2011 - 12:30 .

[DieHigh2012]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

DieHigh2012 wrote...

1. Yes because no one else goes in and out of the chantry, its not like anyone goes there to pray or anything... But thats ok right? because mages are weak and the chantry is strong. That is the exact argument that al qaeda uses to justify their own monstrouse actions.

2. No you said that anders can't be a terrorist because he isn't a religious fanatic, don't change your story now.

Er... Al Quaida has never claimed to be weak, IIRC. While what Anders is did wrong, there are some massive differences. Anders is going after an organisation, Al Quaida is going after an entire civilisation. If we want a real world parallel, Anders bombed a mosque that held a leader of Al Quaida, not a school full of children. Anders is someone who was personally wronged on many levels by the Chantry, many members of Al Quaida have never really had much of an introduction to the people they claim to be fighting against, since so many recruits are from small, rural villages. The Chantry has been shown to have numerous abuses, both by mages telling us and by templars who are horrified at the Order's (or at least some higher-ranking members of the Order) actions. Whatever he may be, Anders is not a lone conspiracy nut trying to rope people into his personal delusion. He wasn't trying to terrorise the Chantry into submission- he's trying to rally his fellow mages into fighting for their freedom, since there's no way to subdue the Chantry.

Thank you.

To answer your questions, Die:

1. Why do you think innocent people were in the Chantry at night? The Chantry is closed  to the public then.

2. I don't think you read what I wrote. I addressed that Anders wasn't a member of a particular terrorist organization because he wasn't a religious fanatic.

And that is a huge leep in logic, read what I told Valentina, then respond.

[highcastle]

Alpr wrote...

I was in a gay romance with him (to get the trophy, which apparently it has to be straight or I did it wrong. I got him to live with me and we made out on the bed but I couldn't go any further). Anyways, I ended up killing him even though I was playing the Hero of Kirkwall but being bias and siding with mages every time.

Nope, it doesn't have to be straight. You just need to keep him alive through the end. So the mistake (if you want to call it that) was in killing him. If you'd allowed him to live and then talked to him at the Gallows, you would've gotten the trophy.

[Khettien]

Just because Tevinter mages have spiraled into using compulsory blood magic and enslaving people doesn't mean /all/ free mages will do so.

That's like saying that because the Germans slaughtered the Jews in WW2, the Germans will slaughter Jews if the rest of the world doesn't guard against it. False analogy.

Honestly, magic appears to 'just' confuse the issue of social responsibility. In our world, anyone in the First World countries can build highly effective explosives with ingredients from a freaking shopping mart and a kitchen, and have been able to do so since at least the end of WW2. The fact that things like the Oklahama State Building bombing don't happen more often speaks loudly, to me. Power exacerbates the problem; control /is/ the problem.

[Harorrd]

Exacly,

i found my ethics from the WW2,
The templars as the ****, wanting to kill the Mages, Jews


And i took comparison to that Deathray from maker knows where as an example of the Atomic bomb.

[cglasgow]

Why do you think innocent people were in the Chantry at night? The Chantry is closed to the public then.

And every single Mother, lay sister, and servant in the Chantry building are all evil, then? Including the two nuns in the foyer talking about their charity program for trying to feed as many orphaned refugee children as possible? 

Think on all the Chantry sisters we've met in both games, the little humble rank-and-file ones who run chanter boards and putter around in church libraries and suchlike.  Are they all Meredith?

Andraste's sacred knickers, even in DA2 we meet innocent TEMPLARS.  Including CULLEN, of all people.  So whyfor the belief that there zero innocent Chantry sisters too?

Modifié par cglasgow, 13 mars 2011 - 01:16 .

[LobselVith8]

Rafe34 wrote...

Merrill?? o_O. And she seems so innocent.

I have Merrill on the mind, what can I say?

DieHigh2012 wrote...

1. They lose emotion, stop beating this dead horse. It is not "stated" you infered it. Also for you to be insulted by being called ignorant, is just another show of ignorance. (look up the words meaning before you take offence)

I don't see why you're disputing information we're explicitly told in two quests from two different sources. They have no agency of their own. Two of Anders' quests address that you're mistaken, because they don't simply lose their emotion and this is explicitly mentioned in both quests. If you want to provide information to contradict what we're explicitly told in the quests, feel free to.

DieHigh2012 wrote...

2. Again the they are evil so i can be evil" thing doesn't fly.

It doesn't fly to say that mages are turning to blood magic without accounting for the enviornment that pushes them towards it more often than not.

DieHigh2012 wrote...

Yes I am, look at what anders did a single non mage can't do that in Tedas, they must be held to a higher standard. It was not "a few" mages even you have to admit that it was most of the mages. you have been able to name 2 mages in the whole game that arent blood mages.

He destroyed a building with ingredients that were found all across Kirkwall and the surrounding area. Anyone else could have done it. The Qunari clearly have their own explosives, after all. As for mages and templars, what point is there to judge them all based on the actions of a select few?

DieHigh2012 wrote...

Your fenris still thinks it is wrong and that it will lead down a very bad path, but stands by you because he wants to have your back. No other reason.

He thinks it's tantamount to suicide, which is what he says when I spoke to him afterward. It's the same line of thinking Varric has - there's an army of templars, after all.

DieHigh2012 wrote...

3. It is funny because in the movie the inglorious bastereds are terrorists, that was the only reason they whent over there. There is no base for your argument.

They're soldiers trying to win a war against the enemy. Under your line of commentary, the American revolutionists would be considered terrroists for killing British soldiers.

DieHigh2012 wrote...

Just because you agree with an an act of terrorism doesn't automaticly make it not terrorism.

I agree with the abolition of slavery, Die.

DieHigh2012 wrote...

4. No I am equating judgement and reason, or lack of, to character. He obiously knew it was wrong and stupid to behave that way, why eles would he start trying to explain himself as soon as he finds out why you are there. Being a mage should he be able to understand that proclaiming to the world you are a blood mage is a bad idea?

He's socially inept, but there's no proof he's intellectually lacking when it comes to his skill over his magical ability. You haven't provided anything to disprove this.

DieHigh2012 wrote...

5. Don't know why i put this here.......Oh yea, I'm glad you ran away from the whole Anders is not a terrorist thing. I was begining to feel kind of bad for you.

Because he wants the abolition of slavery. I can onsider him an abolitionist.

[cglasgow]

Hey, John Brown wanted the abolition of slavery too. And look at where he ended up.

There is no cause so righteous that it hasn't had at least one extremist idiot commit a moral atrocity in the belief he was defending it. Pretending otherwise leads down the same path of logical insanity as saying that I can't criticize the Indian Wars or the Japanese internment camps and still call myself a patriotic American.

Modifié par cglasgow, 13 mars 2011 - 01:28 .

[LobselVith8]

TexasToast712 wrote...

I love how you go on and on about how mages are opressed and abused, blah, blah, blah. This is true, IN KIRKWALL, not all circles are as bad.

Mages have no freedom across Thedas because they all belong to the Chantry. It's subjugation and slavery, pure and simple.

TexasToast712 wrote...

Free mages results in a establishment such as the Tevinter Imperium. They support Blood Magic in Tevinter and are willing to sacrifice others for power. I agree some mages in some Circles are abused but the alternative is much worse. Dragon Age II shows that mages will resort to blood magic when in a losing battle.

I respectfully disagree with your assessment. I don't think the actions of a few should be considered for all mages. Did the nation of the Dales resort to blood magic? Mages were in leadership positions, since the Keepers are descended from the nobility who ruled the Dales. Haven was a society where mages existed without templar or Chantry control, and there was no magocracy. There's also no magocracy in the nation of Rivain or among the Chasind tribes. I don't see why you'd insinuate free mages would create another Tevinter when we clearly see instances where free mages do no such thing.

[LobselVith8]

cglasgow wrote...

And every single Mother, lay sister, and servant in the Chantry building are all evil, then? Including the two nuns in the foyer talking about their charity program for trying to feed as many orphaned refugee children as possible? 

Think on all the Chantry sisters we've met in both games, the little humble rank-and-file ones who run chanter boards and putter around in church libraries and suchlike.  Are they all Meredith?

I never claimed they were all Knight-Commander Meredith.

cglasgow wrote...

Andraste's sacred knickers, even in DA2 we meet innocent TEMPLARS.  Including CULLEN, of all people.  So whyfor the belief that there zero innocent Chantry sisters too?

So instead of emancipating all mages across the continent through a revolutionary act of defiance against the Chantry and its templars, Anders should have done nothing? Because his actions can lead directly to the Circles freeing themselves from the subjugation of the Chantry and its templars. He wanted to free his people from slavery, and he can accomplish it.

cglasgow wrote...

Hey, John Brown wanted the abolition of slavery too. And look at where he ended up.

You mean how his actions in part lead to the American Civil War? I don't see that as a bad thing.

cglasgow wrote...

There is no cause so righteous that it hasn't had at least one extremist idiot commit a moral atrocity in the belief he was defending it. Pretending otherwise leads down the same path of logical insanity as saying that I can't criticize the Indian Wars or the Japanese internment camps and still call myself a patriotic American.

His actions can lead to the freedom of mages across Thedas. Every mage who doesn't end up getting tortured, raped, lobotomized, or killed by a templar ruling over mages owes their freedom to his actions.

[cglasgow]

His actions can lead to the freedom of mages across Thedas.

So, mass murder of innocent noncombatants is OK if doing it leads to the kind of social change you want?

I pray that you never get elected to any political office or attain any amount of military rank ever.

[LobselVith8]

cglasgow wrote...

So, mass murder of innocent noncombatants is OK if doing it leads to the kind of social change you want?

Are they innocent when they belong to an organization that's involved in slavery?

[cglasgow]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Are they innocent when they belong to an organization that's involved in slavery?

You do realize that this is the exact same argument that Meredith used to justify the oppression of mages?   Just substitute 'blood magic' for 'slavery' and bam, there you go.

Nietzsche had this quote about what happens when you fight monsters and stare into an abyss.  You might want to look it up.

Modifié par cglasgow, 13 mars 2011 - 01:59 .

[MB123]

I felt like he really didn't have any grounds doing this, considering that Grand Cleric Elthina was one of the only people to remain neutral during the whole mage v. templar mess. And most of the game he rants about templars when it seems that the Kirkwall Chantry has little control over them.

[lillegraa]

mah, I had to spoil myself because it got bugged when I forgot to speak to the Grand Cleric :/
Although I imagine that if I hadn't spoiled myself, my reaction would have been more... like... "oh my goooood" rather than "naughty Anders". He was my LI though, so I kept him :b

[berelinde]

I went into it spoiled. I watched the video. And it still hit me like a sledge hammer to the chest. The video was like TV, not real. When it happened in the game... OK, it still wasn't real, but the part of my brain that was in the story thought it was, and apparently, that's the part that's connected to my jaw muscles.

My PC let him live. His cause may have meant more to him than honesty in their relationship, but he meant more to her than anything else. She would have forgiven him anything but killing Carver. Family is family is family, even if her brother is a jackass. Besides, as an apostate mage herself, she had a lot invested in Anders' cause herself.

[NeoGuardian86]

Only thing in my head at the time when Anders did that was a big huge "Why did you do that?!"

someone on here has a funny animation signature showing the Chantry getting destroyed goes in black and says "God damn it Anders"


Had to put him down for the murder of the people in the Chantry, but still stood apart from the Templar's mad-power Meredith.


he wanted to force peoples hands. He achieved it. but still i think the price will be too high.

[LobselVith8]

cglasgow wrote...

You do realize that this is the exact same argument that Meredith used to justify the oppression of mages?   Just substitute 'blood magic' for 'slavery' and bam, there you go.

It's an argument you can contest with Meredith as Hawke in DA2, as a matter of fact.

cglasgow wrote...

Nietzsche had this quote about what happens when you fight monsters and stare into an abyss.  You might want to look it up.

Silent Hill 2 used a better reference to the quote if we're going to be honest. Anders wanted mages to no longer be slaves, and was willing to pay any personal price as a consequence of his actions. It's precisely what I wanted since I asked for the Magi boon way back at the end of DA:O. Simply put, I prefer freedom to subjugation.

[The Spirit of Dance]

my reaction: Holy sh*t what did you just do Anders I also loved Sebastian's reaction to all of it.

[cglasgow]

It's an argument you can contest with Meredith as Hawke in DA2, as a matter of fact.

Yes, and that's because Meredith is full of ****; the fact that some mages are blood mages does not justify killing or imprisoning all mages. Likewise, the fact that some Chantry sisters are Meredith or Petrice does not justify murdering everything in a Chantry robe.

I'll cut an exception for possibly-innocent templars because they're still soldiers, and soldiers volunteer that people will shoot at them. But when you start talking about the righteousness of turning nuns into chunky salsa because it was all for a good cause, **** that.

And as for 'paying a price', bah. Every person has only one life they are allowed to sacrifice for a cause; their own. When you start sacrificing other people's lives without their permission, then you are staring into that abyss again.

[Flunkorg]

My reaction?
Somewhere along the lines of....

"0-0...............ANNNDDDDEEEERRRRRRSSSSS! YOU MOTHER **********"
But, I didn't kill him... But I did tell him to **** off

[graciegrace]

Honestly, I was annoyed at Anders. I don't agree with the Templars, but come on, the chantry and the templars are not the same thing, it was horrible for Anders to kill all the innocent in the chantry to satiate his rage. I actually killed him, but the dialogue he gave me when I did disgusted me so much that I couldn't help but reload and not kill him. I felt legitimately used and betrayed by Anders x_x

[Wowlock]

Trying to start a war so mages can be free but not caring about the casualties ? I would never thought to kill him like that but I was soo angry that he killed the only person I really liked as a leader , Grand Cleric. It was not compared to my anger when I saw my mother died like that.... but still starting a chaotic war between 2 sides when people gonna suffer even if the either side won.

I am telling you , this war won't solve anything.... Mages win, they become overconfident and we will see a new Tevinter ...

Templar's win, they will kill any born mages at sight so this rebellion won't happen again. I don't think even Warden and Hawke together can't help this.

Bah...idiots....may the Darkspawn take them alll.... All my efforts to keep peace just to see I get backstabbed....... I will just take Bethany and Merrill and stay away from those bastards who deserve it.

[Babi]

If you want to argue semantics and whatnot, keep in mind that you slaughter hundreds, if not thousands of "baddies" though the game.

The death beam was of course a surprise at first... but I lol'd after. I couldn't help but think... Why not just do that to Meredith in the first place? You know... sitting at her desk, and suddenly-- UBER BEAM ATTACK!

Considering that Sister Patrice was acting against you and the Qunari right under the Chantry's nose... didn't feel bad in the slightest about them getting blown to bits.

[Lord of Mu]

My only regret is that Sebastian didn't go up with the chantry.