543 réponses à ce sujet

[Arppis]

Mr.House wrote...

So let's talk about this event in the game. What was your reaction to this? Did this change who you sided with? Where you upset? Did you kill Anders?

Lets discuss one of the games biggest twist.

I killed him because he basicaly messed everything up. I ended up siding with the mages, they were still being opressed. It kinda sucks that every mage seems to go for blood magic in this game.

[cglasgow]

MortalEngines wrote...

I assumed it hard for someone like Anders, a well known apostate and mage rebellion supporter by that point to sneak into Meredith's office and plant a bomb.

Yes, but if he'd been willing to actually trust any of the sympathizer templars, the ones helping the Mage Underground Railroad... its the templar compound, they can still get in and out of there.

Or Hawke.  Hawke could walk in and out of there.

But no.   Anders couldn't trust anybody with his 'great plan'.   He had to lie to and manipulate even his closest (hell, just about his only) remaining friend.   And he had to blow up someone who trusted him enough to let him into her Chantry after hours.

Typical chicken**** terrorist.  Lots of passion and rhetoric about 'doing what must be done', but doesn't have the balls to take a risk and go after hard targets; instead he kills people who don't have any defenses up, because that's all he's able to reach.

Modifié par cglasgow, 13 mars 2011 - 07:47 .

[LobselVith8]

Anders didn't want to see one Circle problem resolved, he wanted to see the Circles across Thedas free of being enslaved by the Chantry. Basically, he felt it was better to die on your feet than live your knees as a slave.

[The Baconer]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Anders freed the mages with his actions, Baconer. How is the emancipation of the enslaved selfish?

As I said in the other topic, Anders fully expected to be martyred for what he did. So he gets the easy way out, and every mage in Thedas has to deal with the mess he left behind, even if they didn't ask for it.

[cglasgow]

Basically, he felt it was better to die on your feet than live your knees as a slave.

There is no saying so pure that it cannot be misused to try and justify atrocity.

[elikal71]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Anders freed the mages with his actions, Baconer. How is the emancipation of the enslaved selfish?

Anders has ALWAYS been totally self-absorbed like a child. Being child-like is entirely describing him. From the immature puns in DA1-Awakening to the endless rants how mages are mistreated. Anders never really cared for others. What he cared for was his victimization and how that justified every evil to do as reaction. Ghandi showed that there are other way to oppose oppression, if that Earth comparision is allowed.

That a person was a victim does never justify atrocities. He was selfish in the sense that he wanted to be hero NOW, he wanted to go down with a crash to make himself the hero for the suffering. He never really cared for anything but his ego in a twisted way. Like the typical martyr is selfish. He wants to be rememberd, he does not want to just make a small contribution to change by working the slow way.

He takes, to paraphrase Master Yoda, the fast way. Driven by fear and hate, it is not enough to work patiently the slow and unremarkable way, no he prefers to force things with a crash, not caring about who dies in the fires he creates. He is thus reckless and justfies his action by mere feelings. It is the typics self absorbed attitude of a child. Only that he as adult and with his experience should know better.

[TJPags]

cglasgow wrote...

Basically, he felt it was better to die on your feet than live your knees as a slave.

There is no saying so pure that it cannot be misused to try and justify atrocity.

Actually, he died sitting on his arse on a box.

Pure idiot that he is.

[Cypher0020]

I'm doing a 2nd mage run as a male hawke.... I have no idea how I'll take Anders now....geez...

I liked the Grand Cleric... unless she was secretly nuts too, and I liked sympathetic Templars like Thrask and......*gasp* Cullen! I totally thought he'd be off his rocker after Origins......

[The Baconer]

elikal71 wrote...

Anders has ALWAYS been totally self-absorbed like a child. Being child-like is entirely describing him. From the immature puns in DA1-Awakening to the endless rants how mages are mistreated. Anders never really cared for others. What he cared for was his victimization and how that justified every evil to do as reaction. Ghandi showed that there are other way to oppose oppression, if that Earth comparision is allowed.

That a person was a victim does never justify atrocities. He was selfish in the sense that he wanted to be hero NOW, he wanted to go down with a crash to make himself the hero for the suffering. He never really cared for anything but his ego in a twisted way. Like the typical martyr is selfish. He wants to be rememberd, he does not want to just make a small contribution to change by working the slow way.

He takes, to paraphrase Master Yoda, the fast way. Driven by fear and hate, it is not enough to work patiently the slow and unremarkable way, no he prefers to force things with a crash, not caring about who dies in the fires he creates. He is thus reckless and justfies his action by mere feelings. It is the typics self absorbed attitude of a child. Only that he as adult and with his experience should know better.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[MortalEngines]

elikal71 wrote...
Anders has ALWAYS been totally self-absorbed like a child. Being child-like is entirely describing him. From the immature puns in DA1-Awakening to the endless rants how mages are mistreated. Anders never really cared for others. What he cared for was his victimization and how that justified every evil to do as reaction. Ghandi showed that there are other way to oppose oppression, if that Earth comparision is allowed.

That a person was a victim does never justify atrocities. He was selfish in the sense that he wanted to be hero NOW, he wanted to go down with a crash to make himself the hero for the suffering. He never really cared for anything but his ego in a twisted way. Like the typical martyr is selfish. He wants to be rememberd, he does not want to just make a small contribution to change by working the slow way.

He takes, to paraphrase Master Yoda, the fast way. Driven by fear and hate, it is not enough to work patiently the slow and unremarkable way, no he prefers to force things with a crash, not caring about who dies in the fires he creates. He is thus reckless and justfies his action by mere feelings. It is the typics self absorbed attitude of a child. Only that he as adult and with his experience should know better.

You've pretty much hit the nail on the head. For Anders, it was never about the mages, it was about getting revenge for HIS treatment. I just want to add another reason is that Justice gave Anders the push over the edge to finally act on these irrational thoughts and he is partially to blame.

cglasgow wrote...

Yes, but if he'd been willing to actually trust any of the sympathizer templars, the ones helping the Mage Underground Railroad... its the templar compound, they can still get in and out of there.

Or Hawke.  Hawke could walk in and out of there.

But no.   Anders couldn't trust anybody with his 'great plan'.   He had to lie to and manipulate even his closest (hell, just about his only) remaining friend.   And he had to blow up someone who trusted him enough to let him into her Chantry after hours.

Typical chicken**** terrorist.  Lots of passion and rhetoric about 'doing what must be done', but doesn't have the balls to take a risk and go after hard targets; instead he kills people who don't have any defenses up, because that's all he's able to reach.

Agreed. Like I said, stupid Anders, he just made everything go to hell.

[cglasgow]

To be fair, Gandhi had an advantage in that he was facing the British; had he tried similar tactics vs. genuine fascist dictators, they'd simply have killed him and plowed dirt over his face.

Which does not change the fact that everything else you said is absolutely correct; Anders was not a hero, he was a murderous fanatic.

As for 'Better to die on your feet than live like a slave', I might point out that in act 2, we get two companion sidequests that compare and contrast the whole slavery issue.

Fenris takes you to that ruin to help kill Danarius' apprentice. While you're there, you find a young elf girl who is a terrified slave. She doesn't dream of freedom, she's so conditioned from birth that she's just totally going to surrender to whoever her master is. So Fenris, hating slavery like he does, immediately tries to twist her head off because anybody who isn't part of the solution is part of the problem OH WAIT.

No, Fenris just rolls his eyes at her and goes '... wait here, I'm going to go kill your master and then you'll be free. BTW, I think you're pathetic.' But that's all he does. He thinks she's pathetic and weak, but that's not a death penalty offense in Fenris-world, and remember, Fenris is a guy who has slavery as his own Berserk Button.

But when you go into the sewers after the 'make everybody Tranquil!' templar with Anders, he runs into the exact same situation; a terrified young mage girl who doesn't dream of mage freedom because she's too scared. She just wants to go back to her cage in the Circle because she's too conditioned from childhood to think of anything better.

And what does Anders do? "IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO FIGHT THE TEMPLARS THEN YOU DO NOT DESERVE TO LIVE! VENGEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANCE!", and you have to talk him down from killing her in cold blood, if you even can talk him down. While she's literally on her knees and crying and begging not to die.

And people wonder why some of us think Anders is crazy.

Modifié par cglasgow, 13 mars 2011 - 08:07 .

[sonofalich]

i felt angry at being used by him, although i did have some suspicion he planted a bomb or something in there, so despite what Merrill told me i stabbed the fool in the back like he deserved. i was always going to choose the mages but Anders' terrorist act made me think twice.

[LobselVith8]

If by going to hell, you mean that the mages are finally free of the Chantry and its Templars because of Anders...

[cglasgow]

I am going to laugh in your face when DA3 opens with mages now being an endangered species because the general population of all the land thinks that all mages are crazy murderers due to Anders' insanity.

I mean, seriously, think about it.  What's the average quality of life and life expectancy of apostates?  And now all mages are apostates.   And that was back when the templars were in peacetime mode; now its full-on war to the death.

Yeah, Anders has 'freed' his people all right.   They're 'free' to fight in a war vs. the entire civilized world.  

Edit: And to get turned into abominations because now there is no organized training of new mages!   Yay!   The lands are full of blood and massacre and demons running rampant!  

Oh, and the Veil will be shredded!   Because we've never seen that lots of war and death and suffering and blood magic have allowed demon outbreaks!   Warden's Keep was just an illusion!

All hail Anders, creator of the new golden age!

/sarcasm

Modifié par cglasgow, 13 mars 2011 - 08:19 .

[MortalEngines]

LobselVith8 wrote...

If by going to hell, you mean that the mages are finally free of the Chantry and its Templars because of Anders...

No I mean anarchy because blood mages are running free destorying Chantrys with innocents within and throwing the whole of the world on the brink of war. There could be compromise, it was possible, but Anders didn't want compromise, he wanted DESTRUCTION. 

Plain and simple.

Oh and did I mention the hordes of untrained mages that didn't complete their circle training now free to get turned into abominations like Connor? And how the entire of Thedas (excluding Tevinter) is probably out for mage blood now.

Modifié par MortalEngines, 13 mars 2011 - 08:18 .

[The Baconer]

sonofalich wrote...

i felt angry at being used by him, although i did have some suspicion he planted a bomb or something in there, so despite what Merrill told me i stabbed the fool in the back like he deserved. i was always going to choose the mages but Anders' terrorist act made me think twice.

Because of the war he just started, Anders probably sentenced more mages to death than Meredith could ever hope for. She should have been thanking him, in hindsight.

[genesisw]

I let Anders live, although my Hawke probably spent the subsequent months slapping the frick out of him and demanding that he swear to never do anything like that again or else someone is taking a march to Amaranthine and making a Ser Pounce-A-Lot hat.  *ahem*  (I do like kitties... I really do...)

That said, let's see what drove him to doing it....

One of the codexes said that Kirkwall had the highest number of mages who failed their harrowing or were made Tranquil, and Anders himself said that besides that the biggest killer of mages was suicide.  If a mage had any children accidentally in the circle they'd be taken never to be seen again.  They weren't allowed to marry and were discouraged altogether from having any sort of relationship.  You had to have permission to go outside.  And the plot where Meredith sends you out to look for rogue mages, I remember one of them saying how he had never felt the rain on his skin and just escaped to he could spend the night with a woman.  Not to mention the implied abuse mages suffered under the templars.
 
I don't agree with Anders' methods, but I understand his frustration.   Jumping up and down and trying to get people to just treat you like a normal person and let you live a life and trying to get people to understand that what's happening is wrong, and yet for everyone else it's necissary or it's normal.  So a mage gets treated like a prisoner that's going to screw up at any moment.  The reason why so many mages fell to blood magic, in my opinion, was because they were treated like criminals or monsters.  If you treat someone like a criminal long enough eventually they might decide that they might as well act the part.  Not to mention when you know the templars are going to put a sword or a brand to you any day now, the whispers of demons promising you a means of escape and a chance at a life are probably very tempting.

And on top of that the Revered Mother wouldn't take a stand.  She had her opinions, but sat idly by while the templars grabbed power in the city (wasn't it implied that the previous viscount was murdered because he tried to throw the templars out?)  I implored her to leave for her own safety and she refused.  When you mention an exaulted march might happen she has you talk things down but mentions herself that innocent people always suffer in times like this.  She had the power to do something and some could say she had the obligation, but there was nothing.  I can understand Anders' frustration, and fact that Anders had Justice grafted to his soul to the point that every mage he met made his innards scream for vengance probably didn't help.

Maybe I'm a maschiocist, but I loved how the last act ripped out my heart and gnawed on it.  Watching everyone collectively and individually reap the results of their decisions for good or for bad, staring down at the people I tried to save as some of them seemed determined to self destruct, and even looking at Carver in his templar uniform while I sided with the mages and wondering if we'd actually end up fighting to the death if it came to it.

I wanted Anders to live so he could see the results of his actions instead of dying as a martyr like he seemed to want to.  I wanted him to see for himself if his new world was worth it.  And I think he still needs to fix Justice.  Besides, Justice is a spirit that previously posessed a corpse, remember?  Who's to say that once the crowds cleared Anders didn't just pick himself up and walk away?

For me, there was no other choice.

[Saberchic]

I was saddened by his actions. I sided with the mages; they were definitely being wronged, but Anders took it way too far. He murdered innocents. He wasn't "Anders" anymore. By that point, I believe he was just Vengeance on the inside. I could tell something was going wrong in his companion banters with others. Even when you talk to him earlier in the game, he says he doesn't know how much longer he can handle it.
Unfortunately, I had to kill him for his crimes. It made me wish that Bioware had just made a new character because I really liked Anders in Awakenings. It was sad to see him go down that dark road.

[MortalEngines]

The Baconer wrote...
Because of the war he just started, Anders probably sentenced more mages to death than Meredith could ever hope for. She should have been thanking him, in hindsight.

Agreed, he's condemned them to their deaths. Not to mention, he's given Qunari a chance to take power and we know how they treat mages...

[LobselVith8]

I love how people think that without brutally oppressing mages, the world will go to hell.

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I love how people think that without brutally oppressing mages, the world will go to hell.

Fenris sure seems to love Tevinter.  Great place I hear - unless you're not a mage.

[cglasgow]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I love how people think that without brutally oppressing mages, the world will go to hell.

Ever heard of something called 'the fallacy of the excluded middle'?

In an ideal world, all First Enchanters would be Irving, all Knight-Commanders would be Greagoir, and there wouldn't be any Uldreds.  Unfortunately, that's not true. 

But that still doesn't mean 'Global war and chaos' was the ideal solution, or even a good one.

Hell, its only a specific codex entry in DA2 that the qunari were only barely beaten back by a unified human nations of Thedas.   And the Arishok's dying words are 'One day we will return!'

Well, DA3 is definitely going to open on not-unified and weakened human nations.

So yeah, perfect timing, Anders.  Even if by some total miracle the mages win, the qunari will just roll over the remnants anyway once the lands are exhausted by war.   So when all your mage cousins are busy locked in slave collars with their tongues cut out, they can thank Anders, the Great Mage Hero of "Freedom".

Modifié par cglasgow, 13 mars 2011 - 08:35 .

[LobselVith8]

That must explain why other places that have free mages are nothing like Tevinter.

[LobselVith8]

The Circle mages dealt with the Qunari during the New Exalted Marches and were the greatest advantage the Chantry forces had, so I'm not worried.

[Maria Caliban]

TJPags wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I love how people think that without brutally oppressing mages, the world will go to hell.

Fenris sure seems to love Tevinter.  Great place I hear - unless you're not a mage.

A powerful mage.

Are you a weak mage? Then you also get to be a slave!

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Circle mages dealt with the Qunari during the New Exalted Marches and were the greatest advantage the Chantry forces had, so I'm not worried.

Circle mages and the combined regular armies of Thedas.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 13 mars 2011 - 08:41 .