288 réponses à ce sujet

[Brumbek]

Impresario wrote...

Funny, at the time of the Elevation deal this is what Zeshuk said:

Greg Zeschuk, joint CEO of BioWare Corp, said that the cash infusion will take pressure off both companies to rush games to market before their time. "Great video games don't roll off the assembly line-they are an art form, as lovingly crafted as a film, musical score, or novel," Zeschuk said. "That means taking the time to nurture top talent, then letting that talent work its magic. Fans are the real winners in this deal, because we will now have the resources and creative discretion to make the right decisions for our products. This is truly a new way of doing business."

Perfect quote to contrast what we were told and what has actually happened. Thanks for this quote.

Kovnic wrote...

Just out of interest. In light of this slip, do the rest of the Dev's still stand by the quotes they made in this thread :- social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/141/index/5795081&lf=8

Another excellent post. It's obvious DA2 was rushed by any proper definition of rushed. Admitting they had to rush the game but still feel they delivered a quality story despite the rushed content might be theraputic for BioWare.

Modifié par Brumbek, 12 mars 2011 - 04:21 .

[Treize44]

You all realize that just because the soundtrack was rushed does not mean or indicate the game itself was, right?

Inon was only referring to the score, not the rest of the game, he is not part of the internal development team, he wouldn't really be able to judge the progress of the games development without being on the team and thus being able ton consistently follow the progress of the games development. Not trying to knock Inon here, he's a pretty amazing guy, just that a LOT of people are misinterpreting or misrepresenting (like the title of this thread) the information that was put out.

Summary: Score was rushed is all that Inon says, he's not part of the internal dev team and I'd rather take the opinion of someone who IS than an outside contractor.

[Davasar]

Right.

Let's ignore all that evidence (loss of many features, lessening graphics quality, shorter game) that is before us in order to buy the above hypothesis.

[Treize44]

Davasar wrote...

Right.

Let's ignore all that evidence (loss of many features, lessening graphics quality, shorter game) that is before us in order to buy the above hypothesis.

:innocent:

Loss of many features? Can you list more than seven? I can really only think of perhaps two off the top of my head, that does not constitute many. A couple? Sure, A few? maybe. Many? No.

The graphics quality has far, far improved, if you had a computer that was powerful enough to run it at the according settings or the console version that would be obvious.

Shorter game =/= rushed title. In fact despite the main game being shorter it's already clear to me (I'm about ten hours in) that I will get far more replayability out of DA2 than I ever got out of Origins, which I only played through once. So technically despite it being a shorter game initially, I get far more time out of it than I will out of DA:O, if only due to the fact that combat is no longer anywhere as much of a chore as it was previously.

[Kovnic]

Treize44 wrote...

You all realize that just because the soundtrack was rushed does not mean or indicate the game itself was, right?

Inon was only referring to the score, not the rest of the game, he is not part of the internal development team, he wouldn't really be able to judge the progress of the games development without being on the team and thus being able ton consistently follow the progress of the games development. Not trying to knock Inon here, he's a pretty amazing guy, just that a LOT of people are misinterpreting or misrepresenting (like the title of this thread) the information that was put out.

Summary: Score was rushed is all that Inon says, he's not part of the internal dev team and I'd rather take the opinion of someone who IS than an outside contractor.

Hang on champ, I think your the one miss reading the quote:-

"Unlike other titles from Bioware, this [score] was kind of a rush job.
EA really wanted to capitalize on the success of Origins, so the game
was really being pushed hard to be released now."  (quoted from the interview)

He says he had to rush the score becasue EA was pushing them to release early. If he had to rush the score, your trying to tell me that the rest of the Dev team had all the time in the world? It was JUST him that had to rush?....yeahhhhhh. Sure....what is it the "cool" kids say these days?... cool story bro

I dont have my copy of DA2 yet, expecting it today or Monday, so I cant see for myself what the game is like. As such, I cant comment on if I think the game suffered for the preassure the Devs were under from higher up the EA food chain. That said, there is enough user feedback that indicates it did suffer. Yes there are people saying it didnt too, but right now the negatives seem to have the greater numbers - I'll wait until I have played it myself before I decide who I think is correct.

Shall I now tell a Cool story, bro?

From were I am sat  it looks like they needed to balance the books due to how much money the Starwars MMO is eating up, and the easiest and fastest way to do it was to "Cash in" on the success of DA:O but knocking out an unpolished "follow up" that would be a guarnteed Sales win by riding on the coat tails of its previous incarnation. The final Nail in the coffin would be the silly amount of pre-order "bait" items they made available prior to launch to hook as many people into pre-ordering as possible before they saw the finished product and realised it wasnt worth their time. Basically, we got suckerd into pre-ordering based off our love of DA:O, faith in Bioware, and "Shiny toys". More fool us. I am sure we'll remember when ME3 appears... (And before ANYONE says "Well they could have tried the Demo" - lots did, and when complaints were raised were told, "This is an early build and not like the finished game"...only to later find out Demo=Game)  

This is all "armchair" opinion from me I fully admit - but until I try the game and see for myself, thats the impression I am getting and if thats what I am seeing, thats what a lot of people that never played DA2 will be seeing too.

Modifié par Kovnic, 12 mars 2011 - 08:47 .

[ThorodinHawke]

It was rushed??? huh... didn't notice. its a awesome game damn little trolls *swat* the music score is better 4 being rushed

[Treize44]

Kovnic wrote...

Treize44 wrote...

You all realize that just because the soundtrack was rushed does not mean or indicate the game itself was, right?

Inon was only referring to the score, not the rest of the game, he is not part of the internal development team, he wouldn't really be able to judge the progress of the games development without being on the team and thus being able ton consistently follow the progress of the games development. Not trying to knock Inon here, he's a pretty amazing guy, just that a LOT of people are misinterpreting or misrepresenting (like the title of this thread) the information that was put out.

Summary: Score was rushed is all that Inon says, he's not part of the internal dev team and I'd rather take the opinion of someone who IS than an outside contractor.

Hang on champ, I think your the one miss reading the quote:-

"Unlike other titles from Bioware, this [score] was kind of a rush job.
EA really wanted to capitalize on the success of Origins, so the game
was really being pushed hard to be released now."  (quoted from the interview)

He says he had to rush the score becasue EA was pushing them to release early. If he had to rush the score, your trying to tell me that the rest of the Dev team had all the time in the world? It was JUST him that had to rush?....yeahhhhhh. Sure....what is it the "cool" kids say these days?... cool story bro

I dont have my copy of DA2 yet, expecting it today or Monday, so I cant see for myself what the game is like. As such, I cant comment on if I think the game suffered for the preassure the Devs were under from EA. That said, there is enough user feedback that indicates it did suffer. Yes there are people saying it didnt too, but right now the negatives seem to have the greater numbers - I'll wait until I have played it myself before I decide who I think is correct.

Shall I now tell a Cool story, bro?

From were I am sat  it looks like they needed to balance the books due to how much money the Starwars MMO is eating up, and the easiest and fastest way to do it was to "Cash in" on the success of DA:O but knocking out an unpolished "follow up" that would be a guarnteed Sales win by riding on the coat tales of its previous incarnation. The final Nail in the coffin would be the silly amount of pre-order "bait" items they made available prior to launch to hook as many people into pre-ordering as possible before they saw the finished product and realised it wasnt worth their time. Basically, we got suckerd into pre-ordering based off our love of DA:O, faith in Bioware, and "Shiny toys". More fool us. I am sure we'll remember when ME3 appears... (And before ANYONE says "Well they could have tried the Demo" - lots did, and when complaints were raised were told, "This is an early build and not like the finished game"...only to later find out Demo=Game)  

This is all "armchair" opinion from me I fully admit - but until I try the game and see for myself, thats the impression I am getting and if thats what I am seeing, thats what a lot of people that never played DA2 will be seeing too.

and I think you're misreading my post.

Like I said, he's not part of the internal development team, he's an outside contractor. Therefore he wouldn't have knowledge of the games progress unless specifically told and at the important stages of the game, an unnecessary thing in the least.

Yes, that's a quote from the interview, allow me to finish the portion you left out.

"[Editor's note: Zur is speaking about bugs in the score only; he had no involvement with the rest of the game's development.]
"

He had no involevement with the rest of the game's development, therefore citing his statement as a commentary on such is invalid.

Ultimately, Inon is speaking about the score and the score alone. He has no insiders knowledge of anything else really, so citing him as a source in order to claim the game itself was rushed is again, invalid

Also, Cthulu story, bro.

[Kovnic]

Treize44 wrote...



and I think you're misreading my post.

Like I said, he's not part of the internal development team, he's an outside contractor. Therefore he wouldn't have knowledge of the games progress unless specifically told and at the important stages of the game, an unnecessary thing in the least.

Yes, that's a quote from the interview, allow me to finish the portion you left out.

"[Editor's note: Zur is speaking about bugs in the score only; he had no involvement with the rest of the game's development.]
"

He had no involevement with the rest of the game's development, therefore citing his statement as a commentary on such is invalid.

Ultimately, Inon is speaking about the score and the score alone. He has no insiders knowledge of anything else really, so citing him as a source in order to claim the game itself was rushed is again, invalid

Also, Cthulu story, bro.

Awesome, you want to play the "Quote out of context game?

"[Editor's note: Zur is speaking about bugs in the score only; he had no involvement with the rest of the game's development.] " - This quote is a reference to the line you missed out, when Zur says " So I'd like to know if there are bugs, or if there's anything we could patch or fix" .

The editor needed to make sure that people new the bugs Zur wanted feed back on were music bugs only, as he has no involvement with the other areas of the game.  So yeah, the quote you linked from the editior had NOTHING to do with his quote on the game being rushed.

Also, When asked if he got to play the game while he was composing he said :-

"I actually did get to play the game. I have a 360 debug and they're [Bioware] sending me builds, although I was not implementing actual music – that's done by Bioware. At least I can see what they're doing
and if I have any comments I can tell them."

So, while he may not have had a hand in the other areas of the games development, he got to see at least several builds of the game throughout and to make comments to the Bioware devision of EA about its development. I think he would know how it was going... he has worked on enough games to judge.

Modifié par Kovnic, 12 mars 2011 - 09:03 .

[Chuvvy]

No **** it was rushed. They couldn't even write in your siblings, 95% of the game takes place in one city, there's reused music, weapons, armor and areas. That said I still enjoyed it but it was rushed that or bioware slacked off. Either one is bad.

[Ashbery]

The guy does not even know there are no Orcs in DragonAge so he knows little.

[Will Doherty]

Inon Zur is a 4Chan troll! How can he say that for the best RPG since Arcania!

Modifié par Will Doherty, 12 mars 2011 - 11:23 .

[malakian]

Hmm, da2 certainly is going through the PR nightmare mill at the moment. IGN's redactions and brackets they've amended around Inon's comments still don't really manage to skew them in the light of just meaning the music. He says quite clearly EA wanted to capitalise on the success...It cant in turn follow they ONLY rushed the score out.

However, while I didn't enjoy the oddly disjointed demo and have been dreadfully disappointed in my treatment over losing the signature edition because of retailer inadequacy...I'm still braced to enjoy this game.

A lot of the criticisms I've read on here don't seem to make that much sense. It's a logical non sequitur to say that just because the development cycle was shorter it is necessarily rushed out the door or less effort was put in. They were springboarding from the position of having the dragon age engine in hand to build upon, and al lot of the lore etc established. There's clearly going to be less work to do on those fronts than the first time round.

Also workflow and where resources were dedicated can totally shift a development time. If the work on this sequel was more focussed I see no reason why it couldn't be developed in a year - that's quite a long time.

I like the sound of a more political story and am holding high hopes. The terrible demo did at least briefly show that in the context of a full game the combat will be more fun than DA:O, at least for those who play RPGs primarily for the story.

Here's hoping I haven't overpaid (ebaying signature ed because of aforementioned dreadful experience with GAME) for nothing!

[Pakuska]

It really is frustrating to see EA murder company's and game franchises, I loved DA: O and Awakening, And hell, I love DA 2 aswell, I did notice the tremendous amount of recycled content, but paid no attention to it, because simply, The game is solid, its a great game, but could have been a hell of a lot better if they had more time.

I really do wish with all my heart that they will continue to either build upon DA 2 (think about expansions) Or will be able to work more on the sequel. (which will hopefully give us more detail about morrigan and such. )

Anyway, I started ranting, just wanted to throw in my despise against EA and their money grubbing hands that literally kill frenchises. look at command and conquerer... And hell, Warhammer : Age of reckoning, the game that was released when it was still missing animations and whole classes.. people paid for a game that was about 75% done when it came out. I really do wish Bioware was big enough to stand on its own and wouldnt need EA.. they would be so much better off.

But I will still buy Bioware games and all the DLC they will release for DA 2 just like I did with DA: O. Because Iknow they are not to blame. Im ranting again.. im ending it here. :x

[Valmarn]

Insom wrote...

warcloud64 wrote...

Let's just hope they don't screw up mass effect 3 as bad as this.

It has about the same amount of dev time as DA2. If they screw up the final game in the trilogy then Bioware will look REALLY bad.

Maybe I'm just being pessimistic, but considering the development time on Mass Effect 3, the line dividing "if" and "when" is starting to blur. e.g. "If/When they screw up the final game in the trilogy..."

Personally, if Mass Effect 3 looks horribly rushed, it'll be the last BioWare title I ever purchase...at least until they cowboy the f*** up and stop letting EA push them around so much.

[Valmarn]

Treize44 wrote...

You all realize that just because the soundtrack was rushed does not mean or indicate the game itself was, right?

Inon was only referring to the score, not the rest of the game, he is not part of the internal development team, he wouldn't really be able to judge the progress of the games development without being on the team and thus being able ton consistently follow the progress of the games development. Not trying to knock Inon here, he's a pretty amazing guy, just that a LOT of people are misinterpreting or misrepresenting (like the title of this thread) the information that was put out.

Summary: Score was rushed is all that Inon says, he's not part of the internal dev team and I'd rather take the opinion of someone who IS than an outside contractor.

Sooo...why would the score be rushed if the game, as a whole, wasn't being rushed?

Inon Zur: EA really wanted to capitalize on the success of Origins, so the game was really being pushed hard to be released now.

No, he's not a developer, but it's very unlikely that he's just talking out of his arse.

Even if  his comment that the game was "really being pushed hard..." was only speculative, it's fair to say that he's composed enough video game scores to know what he's talking about.

Modifié par Valmarn, 12 mars 2011 - 01:02 .

[Treize44]

Valmarn wrote...

Treize44 wrote...

You all realize that just because the soundtrack was rushed does not mean or indicate the game itself was, right?

Inon was only referring to the score, not the rest of the game, he is not part of the internal development team, he wouldn't really be able to judge the progress of the games development without being on the team and thus being able ton consistently follow the progress of the games development. Not trying to knock Inon here, he's a pretty amazing guy, just that a LOT of people are misinterpreting or misrepresenting (like the title of this thread) the information that was put out.

Summary: Score was rushed is all that Inon says, he's not part of the internal dev team and I'd rather take the opinion of someone who IS than an outside contractor.

Sooo...why would the score be rushed if the game, as a whole, wasn't being rushed?

Inon Zur: EA really wanted to capitalize on the success of Origins, so the game was really being pushed hard to be released now.

No, he's not a developer, but it's very unlikely that he's just talking out of his arse.

Even if  his comment that the game was "really being pushed hard..." was only speculative, it's fair to say that he's composed enough video game scores to know what he's talking about.

How many times must I say it? He's not part of the internal team, he's an outside developer. You wouldn't get a game score composed until somewhere near the end of a game's development when all the other pieces are in place. This is because a score is supposed to play OFF of those elements in order to provide an emotional impact for the player, so yes, it would make sense if a score was rushed when a game was not.

Oh and thanks for not bother to quote the post I made after that, where I address half of what you're making a point about.

Kovnic wrote...

Treize44 wrote...
long stuff

Awesome, you want to play the "Quote out of context game?

"[Editor's note: Zur is speaking about bugs in the score only; he had no involvement with the rest of the game's development.] " - This quote is a reference to the line you missed out, when Zur says " So I'd like to know if there are bugs, or if there's anything we could patch or fix" .

The
editor needed to make sure that people new the bugs Zur wanted feed
back on were music bugs only, as he has no involvement with the other
areas of the game.  So yeah, the quote you linked from the editior had
NOTHING to do with his quote on the game being rushed.

Also, When asked if he got to play the game while he was composing he said :-

"I actually did get to play the game. I have a 360 debug and they're [Bioware] sending me builds, although I was not implementing actual music – that's done by Bioware. At least I can see what they're doing
and if I have any comments I can tell them."

So,
while he may not have had a hand in the other areas of the games
development, he got to see at least several builds of the game
throughout and to make comments to the Bioware devision of EA about its
development. I think he would know how it was going... he has worked on
enough games to judge.

Really not quoting out of context, it has everything to do with his quote on the SCORE (not the GAME) being rushed. It makes it clear and blatant he was only working on the score portion of the game, that's all he was contracted to do, but clearly, how terrible of me for quoting such a thing. You're seriously just trying to reach really hard to use what the man's said to back up your point when they arn't related.

Yes, It does say he was able to play the game and was sent build, but as I address higher up in this post, he was contracted to do the score, you do that near the end of a game, because the score is supposed to play off of elements in the game already prevailent in the game to provide an emotional experience. So while he may have been sent builds, they were very likely all builds close to the end product (like the demo build).

No, the things he's saying isn't judging the game at all, he's talking about the one aspect he was hired to perform, the score. That is what the entire interview ultimately boils down to, the score, not the game, the score.

And that's all I have to say on the matter, really nowhere else to go from there, that's the bottom line.

[Treize44]

-edit and it decided to make that a double post, don't really know why.

Modifié par Treize44, 12 mars 2011 - 06:41 .

[topster88]

lol @ so many people who can't follow clear logic...

The score was rushed because the game was rushed. If the game was not rushed, what would be the point of rushing the score only?

[didymos1120]

topster88 wrote...

lol @ so many people who can't follow clear logic...

The score was rushed because the game was rushed. If the game was not rushed, what would be the point of rushing the score only?

Well, for all your complaining about lack of logical ability, I find it odd that you don't seem to recognize that the score could have been rushed without the rest of the game necessarily having to be rushed too.  It would entirely depend on the details of the development schedule. 

E.g., assume Hypothetical Game X, which has been in development for 4 years, and was originally scheduled to release exactly 5 years after development began.  The scoring of Hypothetical Game X was scheduled to begin at the 4 year mark.  Now, Hypothetical Publisher Y decides to move the release up by 8 months.  Oh noes!  The score now has less than four months in which to be finished.  

And there you go: score rushed, majority of the game not rushed.   IOW, the two are NOT eternally bound together in a simple If-Then relationship. 

That said, I don't doubt that other things were rushed in DA2 as well.  

Modifié par didymos1120, 12 mars 2011 - 07:03 .

[Muffzy]

didymos1120 wrote...

topster88 wrote...

lol @ so many people who can't follow clear logic...

The score was rushed because the game was rushed. If the game was not rushed, what would be the point of rushing the score only?

Well, for all your complaining about lack of logical ability, I find it odd that you don't seem to recognize that the score could have been rushed without the rest of the game necessarily having to be rushed too.  It would entirely depend on the details of the development schedule. 

E.g., assume Hypothetical Game X, which has been in development for 4 years, and was originally scheduled to release exactly 5 years after development began.  The scoring of Hypothetical Game X was scheduled to begin at the 4 year mark.  Now, Hypothetical Publisher Y decides to move the release up by 8 months.  Oh noes!  The score now has less than four months in which to be finished.  

And there you go: score rushed, majority of the game not rushed.   IOW, the two are NOT eternally bound together in a simple If-Then relationship. 

That said, I don't doubt that other things were rushed in DA2 as well.  

You're joking, right? This is EA we're talking about. Everything they do is rushed. Next DA will come out next year and have some fancy title like Dragon Age Hot Persuit 4.

[Treadwyck]

 That's eye-opening, and more than a little sad. I'm really enjoying DA2, but it feels rushed on the whole. I like the graphic style very much and combat is a lot more engaging (IMO). The story is solid; I found myself completely enthralled in it.

For me, the combat and story are probably what helped me be able to tolerate the horribly recycled areas, though just barely. I can understand using the same areas since most of the game takes place within the city and the outlying environs, but the number of times you revisit the exact same areas is just maddening.

Earlier in this thread somebody said the city had to mammoth for this kind of thing to work and I agree; there should have been many more unique areas you aren't revisiting the same handful of areas over and over. It got to the point where I started wondering if Iga from the Castlevania franchise designed the levels.  Nowhere is it more obvious to me this game was rushed than in reused areas. I never really noticed the reused areas too much in DA:O; sure there were some but on a much smaller scale than in DA2.

I worried about the game being rushed when I saw how soon DA2 was coming out and wondered "I really hope they aren't rushing it to capitalize on DA:O's success". Looks like that annoying inner voice was right...again. 
I'm on the final act and still enjoying the game, but this game could've been so much better than it is. Not to say it's horrible by any means, but it comes up short in a lot of ways when measured against DA:O and Awakening. 

Modifié par Treadwyck, 13 mars 2011 - 06:01 .

[Dorian the Monk of Sune]

Garak2 wrote...

You know Bioware likely isn't happy with the finished product but when the boss sets a deadline.....

I had a boss give me a deadline recently, and I told him if you want this done right you have to give me more time. He gave me more time. The problem is EA doesnt care if its done right. They have sold substandard games with good marekting for years. Every now and then they will have their SKATE and Fifa moments. Bioware and EA needs a Baldur's Gate meets Fifa/SKATE moment. 

[Hunter Stenwulf]

Muffzy wrote...

You're joking, right? This is EA we're talking about. Everything they do is rushed. Next DA will come out next year and have some fancy title like Dragon Age Hot Persuit 4.

LOL, couldn't agree more.

[Mauross]

haha cant believe that some people says that the game is not rushed xD