1559 réponses à ce sujet

[MartinJHolm]

Yeah it is totally illegal to take back the right of a user to play a game he paid for.

In the case of an MMO it's different because there you pay to access the server and they can revoke your right to do that, but in a single player game that just doesn't apply.

Modifié par MartinJHolm, 11 mars 2011 - 02:32 .

[ngen]

unlimited_sake wrote...

Dragoonlordz and everyone else talking in the previous topic talking about how the guy might have lied about what he said to get banned, forget about that for a second. That's not the point. Here's what Stanley Woo said when he locked the first thread.

2. EA Community bans come down from a different department and are the result of someone hitting the REPORT POST button. These bans can affect access to your game and/or DLC.

Now whether the guy whose account was locked told the truth, or he got banned because he was inciting racial hatred, as you suggested, or he posted pictures of dead kittens, or he posted Flemeth/Tali fanfic, it is irrelevant. What's at issue is this: is it okay for EA/Bioware to prevent someone from using a product he's already paid $60 for, as well as any other products that may have been linked to his account, without refund because he posted something that they didn't like on their forums?

If so, what if the product cost $600? $6000? Where do you draw the line?

What's at issue is our rights as a consumer, and how this policy violates it.

For reference:

The original topic: http://social.biowar.../index/6459941/
The previous discussion: http://social.biowar...index/6463616/1

Good post, and I totally agree. Where do you draw the line?
Would it be okey for a car company to take away your car keys for 72 hours because you commented negatively on their product, even if you compared it to hitler og sexually abused kittens.

[LanatirDragon]

German Gaming websites are picking this up already.

http://www.gamestar....73,2321547.html

http://dragon-age-2....forum-aeusserte

Modifié par LanatirDragon, 11 mars 2011 - 02:35 .

[Crinai]

Well, in reality it is actually a suspension not really a ban.

[Nathander Von Eric]

After reading Stanley Woo's reply to the post yesterday I called EA and asked them directly.


I was informed that:
Yes they can and will ban an EA account and prevent access to your content. But before they do so they will have given you several warnings and someone has to be pretty blatantly offensive for them to bring the account ban hammer down.

On the one hand it just seems to be way too much like a -Big Brother-hammer.

On the other hand the ones who get banned most likely have only themselves to blame for letting things get so far.

After all we all "Signed" the EULA and agreed to follow it which "allows" EA to do exactly what they say they will.

The moral of the whole thing, to me, is to either never buy another EA game (not going this route personally) or to use a bit of logic, common sense and respect while communicating on the forums, in chat or in game. (And shouldn't we all do that anyway?)

Bottom line is that there is no big conspiracy going on and the EA rep that I spoke with laid it out really simply with a "Yes. Will will do this. But someone has to be a really bad apple on multiple occasions before we do and, even then, they can make another account and get things straightened out eventually."

I'm a little perplexed about someone getting DLC and other things that are, to my understanding, tied to your account "straightened out eventually" on another account but, meh, don't get yourself into the mess in the first place and you never have to worry about it.

[Ryenke]

Teh Chozen Wun wrote...

Technically, they just took the right away to access his EA account. I'm pretty sure it's within their power to ban someones accounts. Of course he still owns the game and can make a new EA account. So he can play his games and still wear his wizard robes.

Just wondering Is Teh Chozen Wun correct? 

[Pilkingtube]

If, as a result of a comment on an internet forum, Electronic Arts elected to remove access to a product within 7 working days of reciept, under the UK Sale of Goods Act 1979, is it viable to return the product with a full refund in addition to termination the EULA?

[Rockpopple]

My tears are overflowing.

[Clammo]

Pilkingtube wrote...

If, as a result of a comment on an internet forum, Electronic Arts elected to remove access to a product within 7 working days of reciept, under the UK Sale of Goods Act 1979, is it viable to return the product with a full refund in addition to termination the EULA?

Phone Trading Standards, the Uk has some reasonably strict customer protection laws. I strongly suspect in the UK it's illegal, it certainly seems highly unethical and would make me extremely wary of buying another EA product. 

[Dragoonlordz]

I know for a fact they don't just go suspending you (was suspension in that he is allowed access again to register his product after 72 hours), they do give you warnings. I have had warnings from EA myself in the past.

[randName]

STEAM. (or D2D, or hardcopy).

I'll never ever buy games directly from publishers.

Oh well at least EA have created an other pirate to the jolly blue sea.

[DwarvenNoble86]

I'm just going to write a new one because the quote thing is getting a little much.

Again I can't find a fault there. If what you're saying is what I believe, than you are saying that EA banned his EA account and he cannot access his DLC through his account with them and by that the only people he should be appealing or filing a complaint with is EA.

The only thing then is I want some assurance from Bioware that they will take a look at the policy that is allowing them the right, even if they haven't used it, to facilitate EA's account ban, through someone's misconduct on their forum.

I want to know that if I make a mistake and make a comment I will later regret I will not be told that my game account has been taken away from me. I want to know I will be treated fairly even if I do decide to be a royal stick in the mud, as I'm almost certain the person that originally complained about his/her game being taken away was.

Modifié par DwarvenNoble86, 11 mars 2011 - 02:44 .

[SaviorPilate]

The people who are outraged by this (or even mildly offended) should not be willing to pay for this product, or any of EA's products. There are a million more reasons to feel this way, not just being banned for something so stupid. The problem in the gaming industry is that no one cares enough to refuse to pay for a game. This is why the industry is the way it is, because they know it will not impact whether or not the game sells.

I just hope that people with a conscience will take real, substantive action.

Hey Bioware: Why -did- you sell your souls to the EA devil?

[DJBare]

Crinai wrote...

Well, in reality it is actually a suspension not really a ban.

That does not excuse it, he paid for a product and is being denied access, imagine microsoft sending a message to the Xbox or pc to disable the operating system, even if it was just for 1 hour there would be hell, whether the poster was telling the truth is besides the point, no one should have that kind of control over your system/game.

[Crinai]

Nathander Von Eric wrote...

After reading Stanley Woo's reply to the post yesterday I called EA and asked them directly.


I was informed that:
Yes they can and will ban an EA account and prevent access to your content. But before they do so they will have given you several warnings and someone has to be pretty blatantly offensive for them to bring the account ban hammer down.

On the one hand it just seems to be way too much like a -Big Brother-hammer.

On the other hand the ones who get banned most likely have only themselves to blame for letting things get so far.

After all we all "Signed" the EULA and agreed to follow it which "allows" EA to do exactly what they say they will.

The moral of the whole thing, to me, is to either never buy another EA game (not going this route personally) or to use a bit of logic, common sense and respect while communicating on the forums, in chat or in game. (And shouldn't we all do that anyway?)

Bottom line is that there is no big conspiracy going on and the EA rep that I spoke with laid it out really simply with a "Yes. Will will do this. But someone has to be a really bad apple on multiple occasions before we do and, even then, they can make another account and get things straightened out eventually."

I'm a little perplexed about someone getting DLC and other things that are, to my understanding, tied to your account "straightened out eventually" on another account but, meh, don't get yourself into the mess in the first place and you never have to worry about it.

You can actually juggle two or more accounts in a game.  Just log into the account for your activation of the game and any DLC you have on that account, and if you have DLC on another account for that game log out of your previous account and log into the other one to validate said content.  I have done this personally as I used to have two EA accounts.

[Klimy]

DJBare wrote...

Crinai wrote...

Well, in reality it is actually a suspension not really a ban.

That does not excuse it, he paid for a product and is being denied access, imagine microsoft sending a message to the Xbox or pc to disable the operating system, even if it was just for 1 hour there would be hell, whether the poster was telling the truth is besides the point, no one should have that kind of control over your system/game.

^^this. My Windows Phone 7 having issues with update, and I post a complaint on MS forum. Think if one morning I wake up and find out that my phone, all computers and hotmail is blocked for a few days? ... I'm scared now....

[Kovnic]

I think its fair to say this complaint has now grown far from the seed that started it all.

The Forum poster that got suspended is now no longer the "point", as the anger people are now expressing is not so much about that, but rather at the Basic consumer rights violations that an EULA and TOS agreement actually translate into.  The suspended poster in general is just an example that highlighed something a LOT of people were not aware of, that TOS and EULA agreements pretty much mean that when you "buy" a product that uses one of these, you are in fact (to put it as simply as possible) renting the product for an indefinate period of time. (depending on the wording)

Did the forum poster deserve to get suspended? - 
Well we dont know the whole story, but he admitted himself that he went to far and deserved it. Arguing over that aspect of this is a waste of this thread and detracts from the direction its heading
. 
Is it right that the suspension also includes access to Paid for DLC, and by association the game saves that use them? 
- Again, we dont know the whole story. For example, did EA know that DLC would be suspended along with his account or was it an unfortunate side effect that they were unaware of? Mr. Woo posted the TOS and simply
stated what was written in there already, that the TOS states DLC is within their power to control. That does not mean that in this case  it was the intentional result, but it DOES imply that they could do it if they want to.

Are TOS and EULA legal? -
Legal, yes..kinda. Everyone knows that nobody usually reads the TOS and EULA that comes with most products. If you take the time to read the TOS for EA, and so the Bioware social sites etc etc  tos.ea.com/legalapp/WEBTERMS/US/en/PC/

Note the following points :-
(Entitlement- roughly translates as online services of any form ( like DLC access),Content - roughly translates to software like the Game itself.  Those are genralisations made to try and simplyfy it, full definitions are in Terms 1, 2 and 3 of the TOS)

Term 5 - " EA reserves the right to refuse your request(s) to acquire Entitlements, and EA reserves the right to limit or block any request toacquire Entitlements for any reason. .........  If you have not used your Entitlements or EA Account for twenty four (24) months or more and your account has associated Entitlements, your Entitlements will expire and your EA Account may be cancelled for non-use. "
 
That means, that they can deney you acess to your DLC before and after purchse, and if you dont acess them for 2 years, your loose them for good. In other words, your renting the DLC.

Term 9 - "EA may also terminate your Account(s) (and access to all related Entitlements) for violation of this Terms of Service,..."

They can ban you for breah of the TOS that you never read...and sadly some the TOS violations mentioned in the TOS (Term 11's Rules of conduct) areleft vague enough to be open to interpretation.

Term 16 (this and the next point are the big ones for me at least) - "TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT PERMITTED BYAPPLICABLE LAW, YOU ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT YOUR SOLE AND EXCLUSIVE REMEDY FOR ANY DISPUTE WITH EA OR ITSLICENSORS ARISING OUT OF OR RELATING TO EA SERVICES AND/OR EA PRODUCTS IS TO STOP USING EA SERVICES, AND TO CANCEL YOUR EA ACCOUNT.  YOU ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT EA, ITS LICENSORS, LICENSEES AND AFFILIATES ARE NOT LIABLE FOR ANY ACT OR FAILURE TO ACT BY THEM OR ANY OTHER PERSON REGARDING CONDUCT, COMMUNICATION OR CONTENT ON EA SERVICES OR USE OF EA SOFTWARE"

That looks to say that your sole choice when you have a problem with anything they do related to their service or
products is to simply stop using them. So by agreeing to this TOS, we basically agreed that, if EA screw us over, we wont do anything other than stop using their products. So...posting publically anti-EA threads,taking legal action over a dispute, or any other form of "escalating" the dispute is a breach of TOS.

Term 17 -" Upon EA's request, you agree to defend, indemnify and hold harmless EA and EA Affiliates, contractors, vendors, and content providers from all liabilities, claims and expenses, including attorneys' fees, that arise  from or relate to a breach of these Terms of Service for which you are responsible..."

This pretty much says that, in the case of legal action as a result of you breaching their TOS (Which, by the way, THEY decided what those breaches are, and when you have breached them), any legal costs are yours.

Term19 (Point D)  also goes on to say that, as far as the Law of the TOS is conserned. If you live in the EU, any legal action will be taken under English Law, no matter what country you are from in the EU. If you live any place else, you are under USA - California state law for TOS legal disagrements.  So... I hope you like to travel if you ever plan on taking legal action of the TOS... lol


What does all this mean? 
EULA'sand TOS agreements are a way for a company to cover its ass, and attempt to "get around" consumer rights laws. Sadly, most EULA's and TOS are written in such a way that, even if you DO read them, without a legal degree, you often dont actually know what your agreeing to.  Also,  in a lot of cases, people have already paid for a product BEFORE they even see a TOS or EULA. Meaning if you dont agree, yourleft holding a product you cant use.  These Agreements are written to place the consumer at a disadvantage. You are baiscally made to agree to a contract that you had no hand in negotiating, and sadly, it is often a requirement for use.

EULA and TOS agreements are not new (as a few people here have said already).  In most cases TOS and EULA breaches are ignored on small scale mistakes (like the one that started this) simply because its not within a companys interest to persue them.  Usually, they are used to go after larger breaches that directly impact on the companies profits.  Sadly, EA have chosen to enforce their TOS over what appears to be a trivial matter and in doing so have drawn a LOT of attention to their TOS and EULA.

Thankfully, as has already been posted in this thread, TOS and EULA agreements are difficult for companies to enforce legally depending on what a particular case is about.  Some sites people may find interesting :-

www.lawiki.org/lawwiki/Shrink-wrapped_licence_agreements:_the_UK_legal_position  - For EU/UK memebers.
www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2243185,00.asp - An article on the "shady" use of EULA's
www.twistedlincoln.com/news/the_tenth_amendment_and_end_user_licensing_agreements - An article on US ammendments in relation to EULA's

If people posting here are disturbed by these agreements, there are consumer groups that you can contact.
Rather than posting here (or aswell as posting here) try contacting them. For example www.eff.org/wp/dangerous-terms-users-guide-eulas . The campaign against ToS and EULA's as breaches of consumer rights has
been going on a lot longer than this debate over EA, but perhaps now that they have drawn your attention to it, you can help.

Modifié par Kovnic, 11 mars 2011 - 03:23 .

[Valkyre4]

Nathander Von Eric wrote...

After reading Stanley Woo's reply to the post yesterday I called EA and asked them directly.


I was informed that:
Yes they can and will ban an EA account and prevent access to your content. But before they do so they will have given you several warnings and someone has to be pretty blatantly offensive for them to bring the account ban hammer down.

On the one hand it just seems to be way too much like a -Big Brother-hammer.

On the other hand the ones who get banned most likely have only themselves to blame for letting things get so far.

After all we all "Signed" the EULA and agreed to follow it which "allows" EA to do exactly what they say they will.

The moral of the whole thing, to me, is to either never buy another EA game (not going this route personally) or to use a bit of logic, common sense and respect while communicating on the forums, in chat or in game. (And shouldn't we all do that anyway?)

Bottom line is that there is no big conspiracy going on and the EA rep that I spoke with laid it out really simply with a "Yes. Will will do this. But someone has to be a really bad apple on multiple occasions before we do and, even then, they can make another account and get things straightened out eventually."

I'm a little perplexed about someone getting DLC and other things that are, to my understanding, tied to your account "straightened out eventually" on another account but, meh, don't get yourself into the mess in the first place and you never have to worry about it.

I respect your post but I disagree completely.

There is nothing logical in removing someone's ability to use his own property, no matter what he said and did in an online community. It is just wrong...in a million number of ways, a lot of which have been discussed over these pages. Ban him from the community, strip him of his rights on this particular service, of course, I agree completely. But not allowing him to use the product he gave you money for, it is blatantly illegal and unacceptable.

As I said in one of my previous posts, if EA wants to apply such a policy and be fair they have 2 options.

a) Dont let the guy buy your game. He offends you in the forums? You want to ban him so much as to not let him play your games? Ok, fine, then find a way to simply stop him from paying you 60$ to buy your game. Dunno how you do that, (i know it is impossible...) hand over pictures of him in every store, warn him with e mails , find a way so that this person doesnt pay for something you wont let him use.

and

Refund him the money he paid you and ask him to send you back his copy. Thats easier to do actually.

If EA gives the consumer either of these choices, or any other that seems more suitable, then cool...I'm ok with that. But keeping my money and not leting me enjoy what I've paid for? No way...

[Crinai]

DJBare wrote...

Crinai wrote...

Well, in reality it is actually a suspension not really a ban.

That does not excuse it, he paid for a product and is being denied access, imagine microsoft sending a message to the Xbox or pc to disable the operating system, even if it was just for 1 hour there would be hell, whether the poster was telling the truth is besides the point, no one should have that kind of control over your system/game.

Well for one thing Microsoft would not do that (i mean you have 30 days to activate the Operating System as it is) and two these are games.  These things are not necessary for your computer to run.  Besides you don't have an account with Microsoft.  Once you activate Windows that's it.  You don't have to have an MSN/hotmail account to this.  With that said, I do agree that EA may have went overboard on this.  But really we don't actually know the circumstances behind this or how far he actually went to get this suspension.

On a separate note I love your avatar.  One of my fav actors.

[randName]

SaviorPilate wrote...

The people who are outraged by this (or even mildly offended) should not be willing to pay for this product, or any of EA's products. There are a million more reasons to feel this way, not just being banned for something so stupid. The problem in the gaming industry is that no one cares enough to refuse to pay for a game. This is why the industry is the way it is, because they know it will not impact whether or not the game sells.

I just hope that people with a conscience will take real, substantive action.

Hey Bioware: Why -did- you sell your souls to the EA devil?

I did not buy any DLC for DA:O through EA, but waited for the STEAM copy of the GOTY.

Waiting for the GOTY of ME2 so I can play the DLC for that, and I was going to do the same for DA2 since I suspect it won't be accassible through STEAM and the like until then; now due to the flaws of that game I'm not as certain.

So yes, people shouldn't buy any DLC from the EA store due the conditions that they enforce when you do.

[oceanclub]

lostspline wrote...

oceanclub wrote...
The argument is that a banned user cannot play the games they've paid for. I'm pretty sure this breaks consumer law.

Banned users can play their games.  They just have to create a new EA/Bioware account to authorize the game.

Untrue if you actually purchased the game (and presumably, additional DLC) through that account.

P.

[fastgiga_1]

I was informed that:
Yes they can and will ban an EA account and prevent access to your content.

Maybe they can, but it is illegal. YES, it is in the EULA, but this doesn't change anything. A company can write anything they want into their EULA, but just writing something doesn't make it applicable law.

As other persons already mentioned: A car car company  can't take away your car keys for 72
hours because you commented negatively on their product. Even if its in their EULA.

The Problem is, the only possibility WE as customers have, is to go to court. Which most if us won't do.

So here is my conclusion:

I will never ever buy a Bioware game again. NEVER.

I'm just one person, so bioware won't change anything, but this behavior of bioware.....its just to much. It's not about the 72 hours, or about the 50€......it's just........it is a matter of principle to me.

[stryderkiller]

Hey Bioware, you should really consider dealing with a more competent, down to earth, and trusting publisher, not the one who rushes you to release a sequel in an ungodly time period. Im not blaming Bioware for any of this as they have contracts with EA which they need to uphold, however im not letting them go off so easy either. Take example from ID Software, they switched from EA games to Zenimax/Bethesda and couldn't be more happier. Now theres comething I've always wanted to see my three favorite gaming dev under one roof, ID, Beth, and Bioware.

[BiowareCantMakeSocialNetworksWork]

Getterray wrote...

Yes, its quite BS. A comment on a message board should not be grounds for losing the right to play your games. This feels like a violation of consumer rights. You can't, or shouldn't, be able to bury that kind of clause in the EULA and get away with it. In fact, it is illegal to do so.

Agreed. Especially in the EU, which have pretty strong customer protection laws.

[JoePilot]