48 réponses à ce sujet

[micheal001]

I think by far NWN is much better then Dragon Age series. In nwn you felt as if you were apart of something larger then your own character and what your character did meant something to the outcome of the story. If NWN was re-made for todays standards in gaming NWN would use Dragon Age as toilet paper. DA2 is by far a game with really no substance having gone from DAO grey warden and a better character creation and story to cut of character and weak story line. Why is it that in both Dragon Ages you start from the gutter to work your way up to Hero where in NWN you are the hero that saves.

And why does Bioware always need a hero why not a Villian hero that goes out of his/her way to destroy the city of neverwinter of Kirkwall rather then become champion. Who here believes that NWN is a better game and would out do DA series if made anew.

[jmlzemaggo]

Absolutely! That's why I never even played Dragon Age once!
Wait! Didn't I just say something a little incoherent?
Long live NWN!

[Elhanan]

I believe NWN is a better game, as it has m/p optionality. I believe DAO has a better solo campaign, and have replayed it many times. Apples; oranges.....

[olivier leroux]

micheal001 wrote...
In nwn you felt as if you were apart of something larger then your own character and what your character did meant something to the outcome of the story.

I haven't played DA but it's curious that you mention this because my personal feelings about NWN's OC were exactly the opposite. I definitely felt like there was something larger than my own character going on but actually to a point where I didn't believe anymore that my character was somehow important to the story. The story evolved around NPCs I had no real personal connection with and it moved on without me having a say in its course, without giving me the option to prevent things I saw coming from miles away. I felt more like a mercenary than a hero, and not even in a good way (like being able to play a scheming bastard or something).

So without knowing what kind of story DA tells and in what way, I much prefer stories that are directly connected to my PC, epic or not, or if they aren't, at least I'd like to be able to make my own choices with regard to them ...

Modifié par olivier leroux, 11 mars 2011 - 12:55 .

[AndarianTD]

That's an interesting observation about the difference in style between the NWN and DA OCs, which I think there's some truth to. As much as I love NWN, though, I do very much disagree with your conclusion that NWN is a better game. For a variety of reasons I much prefer DA (and what I've seen of DAII so far). And I've always thought that the best feature of NWN is not the OCs themselves, but the custom adventure modules and the toolset that makes them possible.

However, I did notice that DA's OC was styled around a darker and less idealistic worldview than was typical for the NWN and NWN2 franchise, and I think that was probably intentional. A lot of this is carryover from and implicit in the D&D worlds and rules, such as the notion of an alignment system, which DA basically scrapped. I suspect there was a perception that this would make the game more mature and attractive to many players, but I personally found it a weakness in an otherwise brilliant and compelling game. (NOTE: I mean the less idealistic worldview, not the omission of an alignment system.)

I started playing DA II last night, and I really like the way that it integrated the use of "role-playing tags" into the heart of the conversation system. As someone who helped pioneer the use of RP tagging in my own NWN modules, I think that if properly used they can represent an important innovation in role playing games. I also think it's one that can be used effectively to open up a structured RP landscape while also breaking away from the "good / evil / lawful / chaotic" RP stereotypes that are a common legacy from previous games.

EDIT: just to add a comment about the criticism of DA II: no, I don't think that having the option to play a villain hero would represent any sort of improvement. I've always been heavily critical of RPGs that try to combine fundamentally incompatible and unintegrable plotlines into the same game. That's particularly the case when it comes to heavily story-focused RPGs, which DA II is pretty obviously trying to set a new standard for.

Modifié par AndarianTD, 11 mars 2011 - 07:36 .

[Beerfish]

NWN official campaign was not that great in BioWare standards. The toolset was a marvel, nothing else can be said. One can only appreciate the NWN toolset more as time goes one. The level of support for the game was unreal and multiplaer was tremendous.

DA does kick NWN's tail in a few departments but NWN was, and is a great great achievement in gaming.

[micheal001]

Yes its a shame that we will never see another NWN again but there is the Witcher 2 coming out very soon. Bioware has to perform for the share holders and I'm sure there busy with this and that. NWN and Baldur's Gate really put Bioware on the map, just because Bioware had good story tellers and I'm sure they had the time to invest in both games.

Only if Bioware would revisit NWN and bring it up to par.

[AmstradHero]

Lowlander wrote...
The whole "RPG" system just feels lame and pointless to me.  There is actually near zero character building anymore. I much prefer the old school D&D character building mechanics to the dumbed down trees that pretty much everyone selects the exact same way.  I also much prefer Vancian magic to near instantly replaced mana pools. This is definitely aimed at the console/action crowd, so they can just blast stuff continuosly.

This is where you could not be more unequivocally wrong, because you're failing to understand the transition of the old pen and paper RPG system to a computer game without a real-life DM. 

In a pen and paper game, the DM can modify the challenge of the encounters on the fly should the party have done poorly due to bad luck in a previous encounter. A computer has no scope for this. When the designers are creating encounters, with a system as is present in old D&D games, they have no idea of the potential power of a party for a given combat encounter. Thus unless they provide the ability for the player to rest at frequent intervals, it's possible that a pivotal and exciting encounter will potentially be too hard for a party if they've performed badly on the "trash mobs" prior to that encounter.

Replenishing health and mana between combat is a conscious design choice to try and allow the designers to create more meaningful and complex battles. They're not always achieving this goal, but that's the reason for it. Compare these two scenarios:
* Player fights 20 groups of 5 orcs before reaching the orc chieftain and fighting him.
* Player is ambushed by orc scouts at the entrance, player is swarmed by worgs as they enter the stables, player fights orc chieftain with his shaman and must avoid the rockfall traps set up in the room.

Non-vancian systems give designers the flexibility to design more unique encounters with a reasonable level of difficulty for all players rather than just appealing to the min-max players who know exactly how to conserve their resources. Besides, what's the fun in having your mage "always keep Dragon's Breath in reserve... just in case"?

For the record, I thought NWN was great because of the toolset. But I consider the NWN OC to be the low point of BioWare's entire game backlog. I could explain at length why the NWN OC was a tedious exercise that barely demanded any emotional involvement from the player... in fact, I already did so.

Modifié par AmstradHero, 11 mars 2011 - 09:26 .

[AndarianTD]

I only have time for a quick comment for now; I'll try to respond at more length later.

@Amstradhero: I very much agree with your analysis comparing build and encounter design in NWN vs. DA. Far from a drawback, I think that the streamlining, simplification, and flexibility of the build system in DA as one of its strengths. As someone whose main interest in CRPGs is telling a story, providing the potential for complex exercises in build dynamics is more a distraction than an attraction. (By the way, I didn't know that you had a blog. From my quick look it appears to be very thougtful and well written.)

@Lowlander: I understand where you're coming from, but I also think it's helpful to remember that "role-playing" is a term that's understood in at least two (and probably more) different senses in the CRPG community. There is role-playing that emphasizes things like exercising character and build options, but there is also role-playing that emphasizes immersion in a role in a well-developed story. It sounds like you prefer the first, while I tend to emphasize the second.

[AmstradHero]

I hate the term "dumbed down", because it's mostly used as a crutch when there's no concrete argument. You removed a skill! Now it's dumbed down! You removed a party member, it's dumbed down! It's a meaningless pejorative that does nothing for an argument.

If you want to talk about build complexity, what's the point of choice in character builds when so much of it is meaningless? What's the point in having the ability to put points into a skill that is used half a dozen times throughout the entire game? Even something as classic as picking lightning over fireball in a D&D game... Speaking personally I've never picked lightning if I could pick fireball since the old gold box days. There's nothing that lightning does that fireball doesn't do better. What's the point in making a skill that offers no advantage over another skill?

DAO still has choice in terms of character development, though admittedly it wasn't as diverse as it could/should have been. But if you'd bothered to investigate, you'd see that DA2 actually has more. There's certainly not "one character build", and I imagine my dual-wielding Hawke rogue is a lot different to many other people's.

And if we're really doing a NWN OC vs DAO OC comparison, NWN is sorely on the losing end. I could take me and one henchman who had virtually no character. I don't care how much flexibility there is in a single character build, there's less complexity in NWN's combat compared to DAO's. The PC and a choice of a henchmen you don't get any degree of control over is far reduced over having a full party of 4 you get to control and develop how you wish. Not until you hit Hordes of the Underdark is there actually a reasonable competition in this aspect.

Drawing the arguments of no MP/PW or "hideous DRM" are totally irrelevant when discussing the actual game content. This isn't a "EA are evil" or "I want to play with friends" thread and bringing those types of arguments into play makes you look like one of the people that just get on their soapbox and talk about "the decline of gaming" or proclaim that "everyone is a console kiddie". Please, don't.

You can spend hours planning and creating character builds in NWN and NWN2. For people who like that, that's great. Could DAO have done with a little more flexibility in its builds? Sure. But DA2 does improve on that, and while I'd like a few more cross-class combos options (something that NWN lacks completely), there's still plenty of variety to create the type of character you want.

For me, the point of an RPG isn't creating the ultimate killing machine. It's about the story, the adventure, the characters, and how your hero affects the world through their actions and decisions. In that regard, DAO and DA2 deliver far more than NWN ever even dreamed of. Based on your post, I'm probably just wasting my time here, but I hope that you can see that DAO and DA2 aren't dumbed down - they're simply not to your taste.

Modifié par AmstradHero, 11 mars 2011 - 11:31 .

[Xenovant]

I completely agree with "Lowlander" but I'll add something more: with a basic knowledge
of photoshop, 3dsmax, etc. you can customize almost everything in the game or create something totally new. If you want to create something for DA... pfff...

[AmstradHero]

You know, I predicted almost every single counter argument you raised. I could ask you to think beyond your own personal preferences, but you don't seem to be interested. Your primary focus in RPG appears to be solely on how you build your character, mine is not. It's part of the equation, but it's not the whole equation. I've played all these games. Heck, I've modded for all of them. I can enjoy NWN for what it is, but I can see its shortcomings. The same applies for DAO and DA2.

I don't think I'm going to convince you to play DA2 because it's obvious that you've already made your decision based on the short demo. I was also a big fan of NWN2, but many NWN fans decried that as a poor successor. I remember having similar discussions (which subsequently turned into arguments upon which point I bowed out) about how NWN2 was "dumbed down" - much of which was based on the fact that it had a lower level cap and a few less prestige classes. Or because it didn't have as many PWs - a feature I personally had zero interest in. This is a horribly narrow view of RPGs, and dare I suggest part of the reason that this "old guard" is viewed as elitists when it comes to RPGs. There is no one true definition of an RPG, and claiming a game is "dumbed down" because it doesn't fit your personal taste is nothing but a baseless argument.

I didn't "come here to preach about DA2". I saw a potentially interesting discussion about the strengths and weaknesses of the two and the ramifications of different design decisions that went into each game. Given you appear to have no interest in such a conversation, I'll bow out now. You can continue to play NWN, but I'll be seeking new and varied RPG experiences.

Modifié par AmstradHero, 12 mars 2011 - 04:29 .

[AndarianTD]

Lowlander wrote...

AndarianTD wrote...

There is role-playing that emphasizes things like exercising character and build options, but there is also role-playing that emphasizes immersion in a role in a well-developed story. It sounds like you prefer the first, while I tend to emphasize the second.

When you get down to you can call anything an RPG.

No, you can't. It means something to call a game a "role-playing" game, and just from the etymology it's clear that that has to involve the player assuming a role of some kind. Where RPGs can and do differ substantially is in the kind and nature of the roles to play that they offer and emphasize.

Traditional CRPGs tended to emphasize mechanics and build based role-playing for a variety of reasons. Some of them were historical, relating to the origin of the genre in tabletop RPGs, and some of them were related to the development of the technology. When computer resources were more limited and primitive, it was much easier to develop and emphasize role-playing based on programmed mechanics than on plot and story variations (as I found out for example while trying an earlier version of my module-making experiment in FRUA). Now that the technology has developed to allow much more sophisticated development and use of the techniques of dramatic storytelling, complete with things like cinematic cut-scenes, extensive writing and voiced dialog, it shouldn't be a surprise to see a developing emphasis on that in some games.

But when it gets this watered down this much it is more a point and shoot action fantasy game with lots of cut scenes. Maybe they should eliminate the combat and just make CGI movies? Then the story doesn't need to be interrupted with button mashing... It was dumbed down to make it more at home on consoles.

The problem with what you're saying is that the very language you're choosing to describe the issue is laden with personal value judgements that do not necessarily apply to other players. When a CRPG developer goes in the direction of streamlining game and character RP mechanics in favor of making story-based RP development more rich and complex, that isn't "watering down" or "dumbing down" the genre. It's a design decision made for the purpose of creating a specific kind of play experience that emphasizes dramatic and story-based role-playing over mechanics and build-oriented RP. The same goes for the decision to omit multiplayer functionality in favor of a design that excels at creating a single player experience.

Rather than "dumbing it down," I might call this "smartening it up" -- by moving CRPGs in the direction of creating a more artistic experience. Or at least I might, if I were determined to be disrespectful to everyone who didn't share my obvious preference for that kind of game. The fact, though, is that I understand and respect the differing preferences of those who really like mechanics-driven RP. What I don't appreciate is not having that same courtesy extended to me in return.

I have played 50+ NWN modules where independent authors never had that much trouble designing interesting and balanced encounters.

I flatly disagree. Have you ever actually built a module in which you've had to design and balance combat and encounters in NWN? I have, and it's not even remotely as easy as you suggest. NWN1 especially is notorious for presenting sometimes nightmarish difficulties in balancing encounters for all classes and builds, especially at epic levels. It's often really hard unless you just want to build for powergaming munchkins. A lot of that difficulty comes from the overly complex and unbalanced nature of the game's combat mechanics -- which is precisely the kind of thing (as AmstradHero explained) that Bioware put a lot of care into streamlining and improving in DA.

Before continuing, I will point out that you have come into a NWN forum to sell us on DA, I am not going to the DA forum to try and sell anyone on NWN.  It shouldn't be surprising that people in a NWN forum actually prefer NWN.

Before continuing, perhaps I should point out that the individuals you are debating with happen both to be experienced Hall of Fame Neverwinter Nights module authors. And while I'm at it, perhaps I should also point out that AmstradHero was responding to a thread which directly compared NWN to Dragon Age -- which is about as legitimate an invitation for someone with experience not only playing but building for both games to opine on the subject. For you to effectively treat another BSN member as an "interloper" in the NWN1 forums just because he happens to be active in the DA community, or to presume that "naturally" active members of the NWN community such as myself prefer NWN over DA, is presumptuous to say the least. As a die-hard NWN1 builder who happens to agree with AmstradHero's analysis comparing the two games, I very much object to both.

In NWN ANY class can learn to use ANY weapon.

If you think so, try building a Druid with the Martial Weapon Proficiency.

Any archtype you can imagine you can build in NWN, while in DA you have a few cookie cutter choices.

DA:O eliminated class restrictions on weapon use and made them attribute based instead.

AmstradHero wrote...

I could ask you to think beyond your own personal preferences, but you don't seem to be interested. Your primary focus in RPG appears to be solely on how you build your character, mine is not...

This is a horribly narrow view of RPGs... and claiming a game is "dumbed down" because it doesn't fit your personal taste is nothing but a baseless argument.

What he said. And with that, I think I'm done here as well.

Modifié par AndarianTD, 12 mars 2011 - 08:05 .

[AndarianTD]

Lowlander wrote...

The problem I see is that you (and AndarianTD) are trying to make the case that this character simplification leads to better stories, but there is no correleation between simplified characters (AKA dumbed down) and rich story.

There are several reasons why I think that your premise that there is no correleation between these two is clearly wrong. The most obvious is the "zots" issue. Game developers have finite resources to devote to developing a game, and the fewer they have to put into building and testing a complex character generation and rule system the more they can afford to put into dialog, complex plot development, cinematics, story writing. That's simple resource management.

Then there's the fact that the very presence of elaborate rules options significantly impacts the design of the quest and story structure of a game, as well as the technical and programming design. Let me give you an example. Suppose I'm developing a conversation encounter with a companion, and (as in NWN) I have three different "social" influence skills to work with (Persuade, Bluff, and Intimidate). To make proper and meaningful use of those skills, I have to offer and track a minimum of seven different potential plot-thread outcomes, complete with variables, distinct dialog, impact on the plot, conversation tree branching and re-linking, and so on. Sure, I can ignore all of that, and limit myself to only one of the social skills (say Persuade). That's typically what NWN builders often end up doing. But then, what was the point of having that complexity in the first place? And what happens to the player who put his points in Bluff instead? Those issues are considerably simplified if, as in DA:O, I'm building with only one social skill (Coercion).

Having too complex a set of rules to work with makes game and plot design much more brittle, unpredictable, difficult, and time-consuming. All of that leads to less content (in terms of both quantity and quality), and frustrated players. As Amstradhero said, this applies to combat and encounter design as well as to plot and story. When I was at Bioware's "Dragon Age Builders Event" (which I was invited to attend thanks to my NWN1 module work), they explained that they had been able to design a combat system for DA:O that automatically scaled the difficulty of the encounters based on party level and capability. That could not have been possible without a streamlined combat system. And it allows for enormous simplification in the design both of the encounters themselves, and the plot structure of the game. Without it, for example, you're under pressure to structure the plot more linearly and less flexibly, with areas designed with a lower challenge rating to be visited first when your character is a lower level, progressing to higher level ones, and so on.

The real issue for developers is that game design needs to take into account the style and type of experience that you want to create. That, in turn, includes consideration of the audience that you're building for, and want to make your game accessible to. Complex rules systems focus more of the RP experience on character building and divert attention away from the story experience. If you're not into complex build dynamics, then that's just a distraction that dilutes the central purpose of the game: to role-play within a story framework. People who want that kind of experience are not "dumb" because they'd rather not devote as much of their gaming time and effort to mastering a complex rule set.

I could go on, but I hope I've made my point. I love and am still building for NWN right now, so I'm certainly not knocking it. Since I come from the same tradition, I get why some "old-school" RPGers have a fascination with complex rules. As long as they're willing to own up to the downsides of that approach to gaming I have no trouble respecting it. It's when I hear my own preferences being trashed as "dumbed down" that I get just a wee bit testy.

Modifié par AndarianTD, 12 mars 2011 - 07:35 .

[AndarianTD]

Lowlander wrote...

AndarianTD wrote...
DA:O eliminated class restrictions on weapon use and made them attribute based instead.

Really? I seem to remember wanting to build a Twohanded Sword wielding rogue and discovering the tree wasn't available to Rogues at all.

In DA:O you certainly could have a rogue wield a greatsword. I usually play mages, and I frequently used a two-handed weapon as my melee weapon. As I said, weapons in Origins were designed to have an ability score requirement (e.g. 25 Strength) to use, not a class-based requirement. You can't get the specializations skills, of course, but you can use the weapons. And class-based skill restrictions are common to most CRPGs, including NWN.

How does DA:2 treat this?

I just started playing DA:2, and yes, it looks like they did indeed make this more restrictive. I'm going to have to play a while more before I'll be able to make an informed judgement on whether there are benefits from this in the gameplay that make up for the loss in flexibility.

It is a testament to how special NWN 1 is that nearly a decade later, people are still enthusiastically playing NWN 1, and looking for more.

I agree, but I think this is mainly due to the comparative ease of modding for NWN1.

I bet in 5 years pretty much no one will be playing DA:O, let alone in a Decade. Heck I would not be surprised that 5 years from now more people will be playing 14 year old NWN, than 6 year old DA:O.

Well, I know that in five years, I won't be modding for NWN1 any longer. By then I'll have moved on to a more modern game, and at least for now Dragon Age is the one I'm planning to migrate to.

Modifié par AndarianTD, 12 mars 2011 - 07:34 .

[Wensleydale]

You guys are totally reinforcing the stereotype of the "pedantic D&D nerd". I hope you know that.

[Vansen Elamber]

I enjoyed both games a lot, and I have replayed both to death so for me it is a toss up as to which one is best. I try not to compare games that way, instead I either like the game or not according to its own strengths and weaknesses.

[Bannor Bloodfist]

Lowlander wrote...
<SNIP>

Now in DA2, it appear the have, ahem "streamlined" it much more. From what I read. Warriors have now lost both dual weapons and Archery capability.  Exactly how "streamlined" must it get before you consider it dumbed down. We are about one weapon away from "Gauntlet" where the fighter bashes and the Elf shoots arrows(Elf needs food!).

From what I read it also sound like you can no longer even equip non class weapons, the Warrior can't even fire a bow (I could be wrong in my reading of this).

I think you will have to rationalize heavily to come up with reason why it is good that Warriors can't use bows...

Yep, you can no longer equip cross class, nor use cross class skills, IE, you can spend various skill/attribute points to increase your lockpicking skills, but it won't work if you are not a Rogue by class.

So, yep, dumbed down, WAY down, and nothing anywhere near what you are used to coming from a NWN past life.  Sad too, since I had intended to purchase DA:2 but now will not waste my money. 

In fact, I still have points available from DA:O that I put in place to hold for future DLC etc, but they have changed the cost of items now to the point where what I had saved over is now basically worthless.  No way would I be spending money on future DLC since all they are, are "items", "weapons" that you could generally create in only a few minutes if you had a toolset.  How they think that folks will spend huge bundles of cash for this is beyond me now.