30 réponses à ce sujet

[ziloe]

 Look, before anyone says anything about there being a review spot, we all know how much our comments get overwhelmed and lost between the conversations that happen within, so with that said I'm just going to point this out.


Story:

I felt like this game was so linear, like when I could face the Arishok, no matter what, I would have to fight him. The only difference was in how, alone or with friends. There was no way to avoid a fight all together, no matter how much I played the peace keeper.

You guys claimed a frame narrative and that barely even happened. Even Prince of Persia did a better job, including when the "Game Over" happened and he went all out to say, "No! No! No! That isn't right..." etc.
I was totally looking forward to this game and all these promises you made of improvements and though some of them were admirable and I enjoyed the game, I couldn't help but see too many paralels to the Mass Effect series. You guys kept going on about the Qun being of one mind and I was like, "God, what are they, the Geth?"

Gameplay:

When it comes to the levels, I was fine at first with a bit of the repetition, but my gawd, you used the warehouse build for the sewers? C'mon! Where's the dirty running water and the cool dark atmosphere, like in games such as The Witcher? I understand its a long game, but I thought Mass Effect 1 learned from this mistake already, so why are you guys making the same mistake over again? If you guys could learn from the Mass Effect conversation wheel, you could take some other pointers as well to learn from when it comes to the complaints. 

Despite all that, you also claimed the world would change and grow over the years and it didn't. A couple places were removed like the Qunari base, some level maps forced the same map, but didn't allow you access to certain areas because you were visiting "another" place, despite it being the same. 


Origins and Graphics:

As for Hawke, he never once needed to be the role of a human. You could have had options of your origin continuing and like in Origins, it would have barely affected anything if you played an Elf or a Dwarf, albeit a few minor comments. It's not like you'd need a new voice actor either, it could have remained the same and I doubt it would have bothered anyone to do so.

I have a high end computer and even with its specs, I still saw Origins style. Even the hair options were barely there, everything was the same, minus a few tweeks. 

The Ending:

I posted this in my other thread, though I believe it's appropriate enough for here too. After finding out about what Anders does and playing through that last bit over again, which mind you I expected more after, since this was ONLY the SEVENTH YEAR and Bioware stated TEN! I decided to go through my saves again and this time deny helping Anders enter the chantry covertly. 
Then, right after that, I went directly to the chantry to activate what was supposedly the last part. I honestly believed maybe I missed something to make it go further into the story. However! SOMEHOW, Anders though being with me the ENTIRE time, had time to blow up the chantry. Seriously?! 

Unlike Origins, you've limited our options entirely and though you might have brought in a wider audience, you've in fact stamped on those who were here the entire time. I honestly felt cheated with how severely you severed my paths, making only two or three viable options, in spite of none really mattering because it all leads you down the same road.

Modifié par ziloe, 11 mars 2011 - 07:51 .

[DarthScrotum907]

ziloe wrote...

I posted this in my other thread, though I believe it's appropriate enough for here too. After finding out about what Anders does and playing through that last bit over again, which mind you I expected more after, since this was ONLY the SEVENTH YEAR and Bioware stated TEN! I decided to go through my saves again and this time deny helping Anders enter the chantry covertly. 

Yeah i thought that was weird too.

[DrunkDave89]

Just a quick comment on the framing narrative:

One bit I thought was really cool was the first part of when you go with Varric to his brother's house after he betrayed you in the deep roads. Once you reach the main hall of the house, the rest of your party magically disappears, and you control UberVarric while you blow through an utterly ludicrous amount of very weak guards. This culminates in a cutscene where he puts a crossbow bolt through three heads at once, and engages in some banter with his brother. It then pulls out to Varric's interview with the woman (whose name escapes me) from the chantry, and she basically calls bull**** on him. You then go back and play it "as it really happened" with the whole crew. A couple more moments like that would have made the game really special. You really only see it there, and at the very beginning, where you're powerful and geared, and you get to stomp some darkspawn.

From a game design perspective, this would allow any number of different things depending on artistic preference, and what the game needs at any given point. An example drawing from the brief moment of Varric's asskicking would be a brief period of superpowered characters, in order to help blow off some steam. You could also throw in an interface screw if Varric were somehow incapacitated, maybe through poison, magic, or lets face it, alcohol. I'm not saying that the whole game should be completely reliant on the nature of the framing device, but they really underutilized it in my opinion.

[Auresta]

I really felt more alliance to DA:O than I did to DA:2. DA:2 wasn't linear in the sense that I couldn't do what I wanted (there were a crap ton of quests!), but I felt as if the quests were all almost pointless. While playing I didn't feel as if I had a particular role or purpose. DA:O made it so clear: Grey Warden, the Blight, rally support, etc.

Though, I was pleased with the ending and how climatic it ended up. Regardless, I couldn't fully appreciate this game until the end, and even then I can't see how anyone could love this game unless it was their second time going through it. It all, again, seemed so pointless. I feel as if it could have been better experienced as a book >_>

As for your comment on the story, ziloe, I can see how having to fight the Arishok no matter what is key to progressing the story. Appeasement made him and his people comfortable and there probably would have been no other way for the Qun to leave. They are stubborn asses.

[DrunkDave89]

Yeah. the "Rally for support"/"Build a team" motivation has worked really well for Bioware. DA:O was great because of it, and ME2 was also fabulous for the same reason (also the MASSIVE gameplay improvements over its predecessor) Hell, it even worked in KOTOR 2 (my guilty pleasure of bioware games). However, I think that a bigger problem was the lack of any sort of meaningful areas besides kirkwall. I'm not super into exploring, but I expect a fair bit of traveling. It strikes me as a bit lazy that 90% of the game takes place in a city roughly the size of Orzamar, which was one of like 5 major areas in the first game. Nevermind the MANY areas for sidequests/exploration/one-time visits.

When i first picked up the game, i thought i was DONE with kirkwall by the end of the 1st act. Surprise!

[Auresta]

DrunkDave89 wrote...

Yeah. the "Rally for support"/"Build a team" motivation has worked really well for Bioware. DA:O was great because of it, and ME2 was also fabulous for the same reason (also the MASSIVE gameplay improvements over its predecessor) Hell, it even worked in KOTOR 2 (my guilty pleasure of bioware games). However, I think that a bigger problem was the lack of any sort of meaningful areas besides kirkwall. I'm not super into exploring, but I expect a fair bit of traveling. It strikes me as a bit lazy that 90% of the game takes place in a city roughly the size of Orzamar, which was one of like 5 major areas in the first game. Nevermind the MANY areas for sidequests/exploration/one-time visits.

When i first picked up the game, i thought i was DONE with kirkwall by the end of the 1st act. Surprise!

I have to agree - the lack of exploration sucked and made it all the more pointless.

I though the game would last far longer than just 3 acts - I was surprised when I found it it was only three acts. It seems too short. Didn't think I'd be stuck in Kirkwall for the whole game..

edit: maybe it would have been nice to see Ferelden once or go to Par Vollen.

Modifié par Auresta, 11 mars 2011 - 08:36 .

[DrunkDave89]

edit: maybe it would have been nice to see Ferelden once or go to Par Vollen.

Would have been cool (if unfeasable) to choose to take the fight to the qunari after act 2.  This would have made a totally different act 3, and threads would have been left hanging (the Idol, for one, but that was a really weak macguffin if i've ever seen one)  Would do wonders for replayability.  It would be really cool to see a game with a three act structure but 5 or so acts to pick from.  You could have done either of the things you mention (kick some qunari ass in Par Vollen, or hang around in kirkwall till the king of ferelden (alistair, in my case) comes to ask if you want to go back.  If you did neither of these, you could carry on with act 3 as we know it.

Sigh.  What could have been. 


Edit: I mentioned leaving threads hanging, and rather fittingly, didn't say anything about it.  What i meant to say before my tiredness kicked in and I moved on was that leaving some threads hanging wouldn't actually be horrible from a storytelling perspective.  Surely, you've had "threads hanging" in the narrative that is your life.  Not everything is resolved neatly, or even at all.  It would also incentivize replays, by subtly reminding you that you chose to pursue one course of action, and left a bunch of stuff behind that you might want to do the next time around.  

Modifié par DrunkDave89, 11 mars 2011 - 08:44 .

[ziloe]

DrunkDave89 wrote...

edit: maybe it would have been nice to see Ferelden once or go to Par Vollen.

Would have been cool (if unfeasable) to choose to take the fight to the qunari after act 2.  This would have made a totally different act 3, and threads would have been left hanging (the Idol, for one, but that was a really weak macguffin if i've ever seen one)  Would do wonders for replayability.  It would be really cool to see a game with a three act structure but 5 or so acts to pick from.  You could have done either of the things you mention (kick some qunari ass in Par Vollen, or hang around in kirkwall till the king of ferelden (alistair, in my case) comes to ask if you want to go back.  If you did neither of these, you could carry on with act 3 as we know it.

Sigh.  What could have been. 


Edit: I mentioned leaving threads hanging, and rather fittingly, didn't say anything about it.  What i meant to say before my tiredness kicked in and I moved on was that leaving some threads hanging wouldn't actually be horrible from a storytelling perspective.  Surely, you've had "threads hanging" in the narrative that is your life.  Not everything is resolved neatly, or even at all.  It would also incentivize replays, by subtly reminding you that you chose to pursue one course of action, and left a bunch of stuff behind that you might want to do the next time around.  

I actually made it a point of doing all the side quests before fallowing through with the main story of each act and I always tried to be the peace keeper, despite being accused of working with the Chantry and having to clarify that I didn't work for them on numerous occasions. =/

[kimprobable]

 I agree with all of this.  I also agree that using more of Varric's exaggeration would have been incredibly amusing and would have broken up the tension a little bit.  I agree with everything Auresta said, except I don't see where the Qunari are really all that important to the story at all aside from explaining how Hawke becomes "Champion" of Kirkwall.  If the end of the story is about mages and templars, why is the entire second act about Qunari?  I dunno, I think it was pretty cheap that you can't save him!

The entire construction just felt cheap to me.  It didn't feel polished, and it's really made me rethink the trust I place in bioware.  I won't be preordering again.

[JoshMeinzer]

kimprobable wrote...

 I agree with all of this.  I also agree that using more of Varric's exaggeration would have been incredibly amusing and would have broken up the tension a little bit.  I agree with everything Auresta said, except I don't see where the Qunari are really all that important to the story at all aside from explaining how Hawke becomes "Champion" of Kirkwall.  If the end of the story is about mages and templars, why is the entire second act about Qunari?  I dunno, I think it was pretty cheap that you can't save him!

The entire construction just felt cheap to me.  It didn't feel polished, and it's really made me rethink the trust I place in bioware.  I won't be preordering again.

You could look at it from another perspective. The Qunari act was epic *because* it was merely the second act, and could have stood alone in many other games.  The Arishok was incredibly well written, as was the building tension. To go from that to another chapter was pretty cool.

I think people who are overly critical about the game and the pace need to step back and look at the game as a whole. The pace is actually remarkable, starting slow and rolling faster as the game progresses. It is a complex story, and while your outcomes are limited, you're best served by enjoying the tale for what it is, rather than what it is not. It remind me a bit of PS:T, where it did not appeal to the masses as much because the story was so non-conventional.

The game is not flawless, nor is the story, but it is definitely one of the most ambitious ones Bioware has ever written. Maybe a second playthrough will help some appreciate the layers that they may have missed the first time through.

[kimprobable]

 While I agree that I may find more to like in a second playthrough, it's not really fair to say that everyone who dislikes the pacing needs to look at it from another angle - basically, from your point of view.  We all have different tastes, and the story construction here wasn't to mine.  In fact, the entire story wasn't to my tastes!  We aren't all going to agree on matters of taste no matter how many times we play it through, but I fully hope that I do at least find a better appreciation for the writing or game building.

[Daniteh]

ziloe wrote...
since this was ONLY the SEVENTH YEAR and Bioware stated TEN!

Actually it was the 10th year, you kill meredeth on the 7th year and you see varric walking out of the chantry 3 years later when the chantry needs him.

[ziloe]

Daniteh wrote...

ziloe wrote...
since this was ONLY the SEVENTH YEAR and Bioware stated TEN!

Actually it was the 10th year, you kill meredeth on the 7th year and you see varric walking out of the chantry 3 years later when the chantry needs him.

It was supposed to be a story about 10 years and that meant there should have been another act, depending on what choice you made. Everything you did hinged on that one choice, mages or templars and it would have been nice to get a taste of what happened next, instead of: "Oh and then there were rebellions and Hawke ran out of Kirkwall and went into hiding. The end."

[ziloe]

JoshMeinzer wrote...

kimprobable wrote...

 I agree with all of this.  I also agree that using more of Varric's exaggeration would have been incredibly amusing and would have broken up the tension a little bit.  I agree with everything Auresta said, except I don't see where the Qunari are really all that important to the story at all aside from explaining how Hawke becomes "Champion" of Kirkwall.  If the end of the story is about mages and templars, why is the entire second act about Qunari?  I dunno, I think it was pretty cheap that you can't save him!

The entire construction just felt cheap to me.  It didn't feel polished, and it's really made me rethink the trust I place in bioware.  I won't be preordering again.

I think people who are overly critical about the game and the pace need to step back and look at the game as a whole. The pace is actually remarkable, starting slow and rolling faster as the game progresses. It is a complex story, and while your outcomes are limited, you're best served by enjoying the tale for what it is, rather than what it is not. It remind me a bit of PS:T, where it did not appeal to the masses as much because the story was so non-conventional.

No one is complaining about the pacing, it's the fact that certain actions were forced on you no matter what. That's a linear game. When you play an RPG, your choices are supposed to matter and not just be a simple walk around into the same events. The champion could have been champion for any number of reasons, defeating the Qun only had to be one of the options.

[Daniteh]

As the game was ending i was thinking what the hell, this can't be the ending, no, no, no... I want to know whats going on in the present!

[ziloe]

Daniteh wrote...

As the game was ending i was thinking what the hell, this can't be the ending, no, no, no... I want to know whats going on in the present!

I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels like this.

[ziloe]

I wonder how Bioware feels about this response from the many people. I'd hope they learn from this in their design for the third installment.

[ziloe]

Man these forums move fast, lol.

[Corephyfish]

DrunkDave89 wrote...

Yeah. the "Rally for support"/"Build a team" motivation has worked really well for Bioware. DA:O was great because of it, and ME2 was also fabulous for the same reason (also the MASSIVE gameplay improvements over its predecessor) Hell, it even worked in KOTOR 2 (my guilty pleasure of bioware games). However, I think that a bigger problem was the lack of any sort of meaningful areas besides kirkwall. I'm not super into exploring, but I expect a fair bit of traveling. It strikes me as a bit lazy that 90% of the game takes place in a city roughly the size of Orzamar, which was one of like 5 major areas in the first game. Nevermind the MANY areas for sidequests/exploration/one-time visits.

When i first picked up the game, i thought i was DONE with kirkwall by the end of the 1st act. Surprise!

wasn't kotor 2 madeby obsidian. completely different company.

[Eumerin]

I suspect the vast majority of complaints in this thread would have disappeared if Bioware had done one simple thing...  (and quite frankly, I was stunned that they didn't)

The writers should have included placards at the end that indicated how some of the things that the protagonist did influenced other events.  For instance -

"With the dragon slain, work could finally safely resume at the Bone Pit mines.  Unfortunately, with the Champion missing and Huburt bankrupt, there was no one who could finance a new mining operation.  Eventually, a group of Fereldan refugees pooled  their money together and restarted the mines."

One of the problems is that at the end of the game you have only the most basic idea of what's going on.  You know that the Chantry blew up.  You know that the Mage Circle was pretty much wiped out.  And you know that Meredith is dead.  But you don't know anything about the condition of the rest of the city.  You don't even know who's going to be running it (which - given that all of the major players are either dead or missing at the end of the game, is a serious problem).  You also have only the most basic information about what's going on in the rest of the world - which is particularly aggravating because the game seems to keep dropping hints that there is something big about to happen outside.

[ziloe]

Eumerin wrote...

I suspect the vast majority of complaints in this thread would have disappeared if Bioware had done one simple thing...  (and quite frankly, I was stunned that they didn't)

The writers should have included placards at the end that indicated how some of the things that the protagonist did influenced other events.  For instance -

"With the dragon slain, work could finally safely resume at the Bone Pit mines.  Unfortunately, with the Champion missing and Huburt bankrupt, there was no one who could finance a new mining operation.  Eventually, a group of Fereldan refugees pooled  their money together and restarted the mines."

One of the problems is that at the end of the game you have only the most basic idea of what's going on.  You know that the Chantry blew up.  You know that the Mage Circle was pretty much wiped out.  And you know that Meredith is dead.  But you don't know anything about the condition of the rest of the city.  You don't even know who's going to be running it (which - given that all of the major players are either dead or missing at the end of the game, is a serious problem).  You also have only the most basic information about what's going on in the rest of the world - which is particularly aggravating because the game seems to keep dropping hints that there is something big about to happen outside.

Yeah, that was something that kind of bothered me too, but to be honest I actually hated the playcards. I would have rather them show various scenes throughout the credits, instead of the dead silence that happened among a few crashes of ominous lightning. =/

Modifié par ziloe, 12 mars 2011 - 08:53 .

[MKDAWUSS]

One thing I never really felt was the time difference. They felt more like months apart rather than years apart.

[ziloe]

MKDAWUSS wrote...

One thing I never really felt was the time difference. They felt more like months apart rather than years apart.

Yeah, I agree for the most part. I barely saw any changes in the environment and it was disappointing to see so many things reused. 

[ziloe]

MissNet wrote...

Daniteh wrote...

As the game was ending i was thinking what the hell, this can't be the ending, no, no, no... I want to know whats going on in the present!

my thoughts exactly. it was like:
"the end?! wait, my game just glitched or somehow i failed to download the full game".

I actually thought I missed a few quests and that it was the "bad ending," because usually those are pretty brief. I was disappointed to find it to be so linear, even in denying Anders request, somehow he still has the ability to do it anyway.