196 réponses à ce sujet

[Alexus_VG]

Hmm I would agree with the OP for the most part. I'm not sure exactly which parts of the story and NPCs Gader was responsible for, but based on the work he presented and DA:O and a few other products I'm inclined to believe that perhaps there were circumstances preventing him from doing his usual best. I do realise that a lot of what happened to this sequal is the product of EA marketing and sales department, including how shallow the story elements were in DA 2 as a result to restrictions I believe were imposed on the dev team. This is pure speculation on my part ofcourse but I don't think many of those disappointed haven't had those very same thoughts.

In conclusion I do believe the story in concept could have had merit if it was not so butchered by it's presentation. Same with the NPCs and companions, there was potential there to an extent but again only in concept. As for Gaider as a writer I still respect his work and I would say he is good at what he does for all my oppinion may be worth. I would very much like to see what he would be capable of if he had more creative control.

[upsettingshorts]

Lemme see if I'm following along.

Fight the big bad, gain allies by solving unrelated issues = Compelling
Balance a political struggle that leads to a revolution = Shallow

I mean like I said it's all subjective, I'm just trying - in vain for sure - to understand.

[blowoutware]

chosef wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

blowoutware wrote...

There are childrens books with better written and more cohesive plots than this mess.

Troll. troll everyone nothing to see!

Why troll?

Depends on what you and him clasify as a 'children's book. For me, stuff like Alice in Wonderland, Pinocchio, The Hobbit etc. all qualify and are definitely vastly superior to the plot and writing in this(or pretty much any other) game.

Then again, if he meant that, it doesn't make much sense to use 'children's book' as something derogatory.

 
I'm not anti gay at all, what people do behind their bedroom doors is not my business.

But really, this game just pushes this stuff on you, it's like everyone in this land is BI.

[Donkeycow]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Lemme see if I'm following along.

Fight the big bad, gain allies by solving unrelated issues = Compelling
Balance a political struggle that leads to a revolution = Shallow

I mean like I said it's all subjective, I'm just trying - in vain for sure - to understand.

Origins story is more about the journey then the destination.  It has very good dialogue and is generally well paced and constructed. 

[Eterna]

blowoutware wrote...

chosef wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

blowoutware wrote...

There are childrens books with better written and more cohesive plots than this mess.

Troll. troll everyone nothing to see!

Why troll?

Depends on what you and him clasify as a 'children's book. For me, stuff like Alice in Wonderland, Pinocchio, The Hobbit etc. all qualify and are definitely vastly superior to the plot and writing in this(or pretty much any other) game.

Then again, if he meant that, it doesn't make much sense to use 'children's book' as something derogatory.

 
I'm not anti gay at all, what people do behind their bedroom doors is not my business.

But really, this game just pushes this stuff on you, it's like everyone in this land is BI.

See? Troll.

Modifié par Eterna5, 11 mars 2011 - 08:43 .

[AlanC9]

Donkeycow wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Lemme see if I'm following along.

Fight the big bad, gain allies by solving unrelated issues = Compelling
Balance a political struggle that leads to a revolution = Shallow

I mean like I said it's all subjective, I'm just trying - in vain for sure - to understand.

Origins story is more about the journey then the destination.  It has very good dialogue and is generally well paced and constructed. 

So it's not so much that Origins had a better plot as that it didn't really need one?

[upsettingshorts]

Donkeycow wrote...

Origins story is more about the journey then the destination.

So is DA2, since the destination is predetermined - Hawke is the Champion of Kirkwall.  Just like the Warden(s) defeated the Blight.

Donkeycow wrote...

It has very good dialogue and is generally well paced and constructed. 

I'd dispute that DAO was superior at all in any of these ways ot DA2, but that's not really what people have been saying.

In any case I'm sure trying to understand is pointless.  I think I even said so in an earlier if unrelated post in a different thread but I'm too tired to remember.  Some people like DAO's story better, other's like DA2's story better.  *shrug*

It's like saying one game has better or worse companions, it's something that can't really be logically evaluated - at least not in that broad sense - so I'm not sure that a discussion about it can be anything other than cyclical and frustrating.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 11 mars 2011 - 08:50 .

[this isnt my name]

I disagree with the OP, thee plot of this game is pterry good, the isse is, its not finished.
This was setting up events, and it was much better than generic "chosen one, sve world from darkness" you guys need to look at the big picture, this game is settting things up (flemmeth and morrigan) and its a great change from the usual.

Without sounding like a suck up, I hope BW ignores you guys I think the writing is great, you people just hate it becuase its DA2 instead of actually looking at it your "I hate DA2, therefore they an improve them game, btu I will hate it, becuase its DA2".

I feel sorry for david that he has to put up with you guys, I dont agree with how he and the other writers (sorry I dont know your names) ended this leaving it open to an expansion/sequal but I do like what it is setting up, if you guys think the generic plot of origins was better, then uh fine I guess, but really the way people are acting is quite sad and pathetic, you dont like the game, and thats fine, but damn lots of you are being ****s about it.


lol I just realised, I dont agree with BW or the people hating on them, it seems like DA2s plot in a way, BW are the templars (I think) and you guys are the mages who are just causing trouble for them.
Now which one do I see as the lesser evil...

[blowoutware]

AlanC9 wrote...

Donkeycow wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Lemme see if I'm following along.

Fight the big bad, gain allies by solving unrelated issues = Compelling
Balance a political struggle that leads to a revolution = Shallow

I mean like I said it's all subjective, I'm just trying - in vain for sure - to understand.

Origins story is more about the journey then the destination.  It has very good dialogue and is generally well paced and constructed. 

So it's not so much that Origins had a better plot as that it didn't really need one?

Charlie sheen is that you?

[Alexus_VG]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Lemme see if I'm following along.

Fight the big bad, gain allies by solving unrelated issues = Compelling
Balance a political struggle that leads to a revolution = Shallow

I mean like I said it's all subjective, I'm just trying - in vain for sure - to understand.

Mate what you have here is the story concepts and as I said I very much believe that was solid, but and that is a big but the presentation made it all nonimersive and shallow feeling. I can imidiatly tell you three of the large reasons that was the case. This ofcourse is IMO.

One and the worse by far was the random time skipping of large amounts of Hawk's life right after every major plot conclusion. It left you with no time to really feel the accomplishments of defeating said plot. Then with little to no detail on what happened for the duration of the last 3 years you start of doing random quests again as if little but your home base has changed. The companions were completly crushed by this apporach. It seemed like your relationship with them was stuck outside of time and uchanging and picked up exactly where you left off AFTER 3 YEARS. I con not get into detail here as this part of the forums are spoiler free so I shall leave it at that.

Secondly the story was told in retrospect, by a third party(Varric) to another unrelated party. That may be tolerable in movies but imo has no place in CRPGs. It decreased any remaining imerrsion of the game. It was impersonal. It frankly made me wish the protagonist was Varric and not Hawk.

Lastly and I know this has been subject to much debate but my initial oponion stands. The new conversation system butchered the story and companion interaction immensly. Made the dialog feel more shallow, forced and only mildy interactive.

Make of this what you will. These are some of my major gripes with the game and I'm entitled of expressing them

[upsettingshorts]

blowoutware wrote...

Charlie sheen is that you?

No, AlanC9 is my uncle Joe Estevez.  I'm Charlie Sheen.

Alexus_VG wrote...

Make of this what you will. These are some of my major gripes with the game and I'm entitled of expressing them

Did you get the impression from my post that I believed you were not entitled?  I just don't see the game in the same way you do - obviously - and was seeking understanding.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 11 mars 2011 - 08:52 .

[SamimaS]

The story doesn't ever come close to the Epicness of the first.

Within two hours of DAO your about to get married, have all the women taken away, your sister raped, killed the son of Howe and become a Grey Warden. You then meet Morrigan who has more personality than anyone in this game and then have a full on epic scene of the darkspawn starting battle outside the castle and betrayal.

In DA2 you do the same scene twice, meet a cartoony flemeth, then watch a cinematic of you on a boat, walk around a bit, do one job for the faction you choose, skip a year, then do sidequest for ages! Also, what happened to Isabella, skinny, flat chested and ginger becomes brown, dark hair and a bit of plastic surgery.

[Xaltar81]

this isnt my name wrote...

I disagree with the OP, thee plot of this game is pterry good, the isse is, its not finished.
This was setting up events, and it was much better than generic "chosen one, sve world from darkness" you guys need to look at the big picture, this game is settting things up (flemmeth and morrigan) and its a great change from the usual.

Without sounding like a suck up, I hope BW ignores you guys I think the writing is great, you people just hate it becuase its DA2 instead of actually looking at it your "I hate DA2, therefore they an improve them game, btu I will hate it, becuase its DA2".

I feel sorry for david that he has to put up with you guys, I dont agree with how he and the other writers (sorry I dont know your names) ended this leaving it open to an expansion/sequal but I do like what it is setting up, if you guys think the generic plot of origins was better, then uh fine I guess, but really the way people are acting is quite sad and pathetic, you dont like the game, and thats fine, but damn lots of you are being ****s about it.


lol I just realised, I dont agree with BW or the people hating on them, it seems like DA2s plot in a way, BW are the templars (I think) and you guys are the mages who are just causing trouble for them.
Now which one do I see as the lesser evil...

Wait, what? You disagree with me then say almost the exact same thing I did? I was priasing David, not bashing him. Please actually read the OP before u disagree with it.

[upsettingshorts]

SamimaS wrote...

The story doesn't ever come close to the Epicness of the first..

Good.

I wish I was at the meeting where it was apparently decided that fiction needed to be epic to be acceptable, compelling or entertaining.  I would have raised some vicious counterarguments and cited numerous examples to the contrary.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 11 mars 2011 - 08:54 .

[Vengeance of the Grave]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

SamimaS wrote...

The story doesn't ever come close to the Epicness of the first..

Good.

I think everyone knows you are a paid bioware employee in the guise of a forum dwelling virgin

[Morrigans God son]

It's clear this man is high!

[upsettingshorts]

Vengeance of the Grave wrote...

I think everyone knows you are a paid bioware employee in the guise of a forum dwelling virgin

That's what you think, they pay me with sex.

Morrigans God son wrote...

It's clear this man is high!

I wish.  Then I would probably be relaxing instead of wasting my time in this thread.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 11 mars 2011 - 08:56 .

[this isnt my name]

Xaltar81 wrote...

this isnt my name wrote...

I disagree with the OP, thee plot of this game is pterry good, the isse is, its not finished.
This was setting up events, and it was much better than generic "chosen one, sve world from darkness" you guys need to look at the big picture, this game is settting things up (flemmeth and morrigan) and its a great change from the usual.

Without sounding like a suck up, I hope BW ignores you guys I think the writing is great, you people just hate it becuase its DA2 instead of actually looking at it your "I hate DA2, therefore they an improve them game, btu I will hate it, becuase its DA2".

I feel sorry for david that he has to put up with you guys, I dont agree with how he and the other writers (sorry I dont know your names) ended this leaving it open to an expansion/sequal but I do like what it is setting up, if you guys think the generic plot of origins was better, then uh fine I guess, but really the way people are acting is quite sad and pathetic, you dont like the game, and thats fine, but damn lots of you are being ****s about it.


lol I just realised, I dont agree with BW or the people hating on them, it seems like DA2s plot in a way, BW are the templars (I think) and you guys are the mages who are just causing trouble for them.
Now which one do I see as the lesser evil...

Wait, what? You disagree with me then say almost the exact same thing I did? I was priasing David, not bashing him. Please actually read the OP before u disagree with it.

I accidently typed disagree instead of agree. My bad.
Sorry about that, just used to typing I disagree becuase lots of complainers on this site, so yeah sorry about that.

[errant_knight]

I expected the writing to be good no matter what else has occured to diminish my enjoyment, and it is. I'm enjoying seeing the story unfold. I'm particularly enjoying the interactions with Anders and Varric. It's undercut by the decision to abandon the Origins dialogue system. Those conversations felt natural. The cutscene approach doesn't help at all. Nor does the camera view that has us looking at a character who is supposed to be us from the opposing POV when we talk.

[Mir5]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

SamimaS wrote...

The story doesn't ever come close to the Epicness of the first..

Good.

I wish I was at the meeting where it was apparently decided that fiction needed to be epic to be acceptable, compelling or entertaining.  I would have raised some vicious counterarguments and cited numerous examples to the contrary.

Epicness means just that a series of events is a worth of a story.
The thing that a lot of writers seem to forget is that there are other "epic" subjects than massive battles, messiahs, and Hans Zimmer score.

Modifié par Mir5, 11 mars 2011 - 08:59 .

[Duncan Anderson]

Yes poor poor David Gaider, forced by circumstance to write compelling stories and excellent dialogue for a great and innovative game, he has my deepest sympathy.

Modifié par Duncan Anderson, 11 mars 2011 - 08:58 .

[AlanC9]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
It's like saying one game has better or worse companions, it's something that can't really be logically evaluated - at least not in that broad sense - so I'm not sure that a discussion about it can be anything other than cyclical and frustrating.

You mean you don't enjoy that sort of thread? 

But yeah, this sort of talk just goes in circles. I remember a recent ME2 discussion where someone was saying , essentially, that the big problem with that game was that he wasn't told how to feel about what had happened. I'm afraid I kept the thread going for several pages out of an inability to comprehend what I was being told.

[Alexus_VG]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

blowoutware wrote...

Charlie sheen is that you?

No, AlanC9 is my uncle Joe Estevez.  I'm Charlie Sheen.

Alexus_VG wrote...

Make of this what you will. These are some of my major gripes with the game and I'm entitled of expressing them

Did you get the impression from my post that I believed you were not entitled?  I just don't see the game in the same way you do - obviously - and was seeking understanding.  

Yes indeed you said no such thing. One gets use to being deffensive on these forums and having to costantly state they are expressing their personal oppinion. Too much rudness going arround right now on both sides of the fence. Here is to hoping we can all remember an intelligent conversation is possible even between those who have differnces in opinion.

[upsettingshorts]

Mir5 wrote...

Epicness means just that a series of events is a worth of a story.
The thing that a lot of writers seem to forget is that there are other "epic" things than massive battles, messiahs, and Hans Zimmer score.

Indeed, and a political struggle between freedom and security with each side escalating the conflict until it boils over and causes a revolution that promises to tear through civilization as we (they) know it seems like a series of events worth a story. 

A change is coming.  Morrigan and Flemeth both said so.  Kirkwall isn't a sideshow, it's the flashpoint - and Hawke was there at the heart of it all. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 11 mars 2011 - 09:00 .

[this isnt my name]

Mir5 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

SamimaS wrote...

The story doesn't ever come close to the Epicness of the first..

Good.

I wish I was at the meeting where it was apparently decided that fiction needed to be epic to be acceptable, compelling or entertaining.  I would have raised some vicious counterarguments and cited numerous examples to the contrary.

Epicness means just that a series of events is a worth of a story.
The thing that a lot of writers seem to forget is that there are other "epic" things than massive battles, messiahs, and Hans Zimmer score.

I agree look at it like this.

Fallout 3 you fight the enclave, you do this to provide clean water for the wastes. Its generic save the day, kill bad guy stuff.

Fallout new vegas, you track benny and find ourself in a position to shape the world as you see fit, there is a conflict, house/legion/NCR its no epic save the world stuff and no right choice.

Just like here, its morally grey, and to me that makes a much better plot than the cliche we had in origins.
Its definately more thought provoking.