196 réponses à ce sujet

[Xaltar81]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

A change is coming.  Morrigan and Flemeth both said so.  Kirkwall isn't a sideshow, it's the flashpoint - and Hawke was there at the heart of it all. 

Agreed, here's hoping that DA3 appeals to both sides of the fence when it comes out. I am curious to see where this is all headed. If it is too much like DA2 gameplay wise though I will probably sit is out and just read the spoilers thread. I do like how the DA world is developing. In fact my wife and I addapted our favorite Pen and Paper RPG mechanics to make a few games in this setting. Looking forward to seeing what is in store for us. I won't comment on story elements here though seeing as it is the "no spoiler" section.

[Foolsfolly]

this isnt my name wrote...

I disagree with the OP, thee plot of this game is pterry good, the isse is, its not finished.
This was setting up events, and it was much better than generic "chosen one, sve world from darkness" you guys need to look at the big picture, this game is settting things up (flemmeth and morrigan) and its a great change from the usual.

Without sounding like a suck up, I hope BW ignores you guys I think the writing is great, you people just hate it becuase its DA2 instead of actually looking at it your "I hate DA2, therefore they an improve them game, btu I will hate it, becuase its DA2".

I feel sorry for david that he has to put up with you guys, I dont agree with how he and the other writers (sorry I dont know your names) ended this leaving it open to an expansion/sequal but I do like what it is setting up, if you guys think the generic plot of origins was better, then uh fine I guess, but really the way people are acting is quite sad and pathetic, you dont like the game, and thats fine, but damn lots of you are being ****s about it.


lol I just realised, I dont agree with BW or the people hating on them, it seems like DA2s plot in a way, BW are the templars (I think) and you guys are the mages who are just causing trouble for them.
Now which one do I see as the lesser evil...

I agree. It was not finished.

I'm not saying the game was rushed (although that would explain the reusing of every map). The story had no ending. In the beginning Varric says the Chantry's been destroyed, we know from every preview that the world is on the brink of war, and the Seeker just wants to know why and how.

So it's the story of how the Chantry fell and the world became embroiled with war. Cool story. To make it better you're a refugee who rises to power (eh, fame, since you're just an errand boy with a nice house). That's a cool story! That's a great story! 

Problem is, that summary at the beginning is all you really need to know (and find out about). The telling of the story only raises further questions that the game refuses to answer because it's setting up another game or DLC or expansion or whatever the hell they'll call the additional charge to finish their story (example: Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood which expanded on the mediore AC2 ending).

If you look at the story unbiasedly you'd see its many flaws. Here's two of the bigger ones that just aggrovate me to no end. What was the point of Flemeth even being in the game? And the entire Red Lyrium Idol plot device. What was it? What does it do? Where'd it come from? The game doesn't answer these, it doesn't even care to have other people ask the question. It's just magic and it can raise ghosts, drive you insane, or make you a demi-god.

There's more I could say but this is a spoiler-free forum.

[SamimaS]

Surely a good story should draw you in emotionally.

For me personally, lacklusture start, massive amount of quests which must be undertaken without plot advancement and voiced main character all remove me from the story. I feel like Im playing Hawkes story rather than mine.

In Origins, It felt much more personal. Firstly, the game begins with story rather than action. Wheter your in an arranged marriage or a dwarf becoming a champion, you immediately feel emotion. This means when the story starts and loghain betrays the wardens and king, you feel anger. Also, in the first game the main plot is always available. So i could do a few quests, then circle of magi, a few more quests, then the dalish story. I always feel like this is my story. I also feel much more a part of the story by having a silent character and charismatic companions.

[this isnt my name]

Foolsfolly wrote...

this isnt my name wrote...

I disagree with the OP, thee plot of this game is pterry good, the isse is, its not finished.
This was setting up events, and it was much better than generic "chosen one, sve world from darkness" you guys need to look at the big picture, this game is settting things up (flemmeth and morrigan) and its a great change from the usual.

Without sounding like a suck up, I hope BW ignores you guys I think the writing is great, you people just hate it becuase its DA2 instead of actually looking at it your "I hate DA2, therefore they an improve them game, btu I will hate it, becuase its DA2".

I feel sorry for david that he has to put up with you guys, I dont agree with how he and the other writers (sorry I dont know your names) ended this leaving it open to an expansion/sequal but I do like what it is setting up, if you guys think the generic plot of origins was better, then uh fine I guess, but really the way people are acting is quite sad and pathetic, you dont like the game, and thats fine, but damn lots of you are being ****s about it.


lol I just realised, I dont agree with BW or the people hating on them, it seems like DA2s plot in a way, BW are the templars (I think) and you guys are the mages who are just causing trouble for them.
Now which one do I see as the lesser evil...

I agree. It was not finished.

I'm not saying the game was rushed (although that would explain the reusing of every map). The story had no ending. In the beginning Varric says the Chantry's been destroyed, we know from every preview that the world is on the brink of war, and the Seeker just wants to know why and how.

So it's the story of how the Chantry fell and the world became embroiled with war. Cool story. To make it better you're a refugee who rises to power (eh, fame, since you're just an errand boy with a nice house). That's a cool story! That's a great story! 

Problem is, that summary at the beginning is all you really need to know (and find out about). The telling of the story only raises further questions that the game refuses to answer because it's setting up another game or DLC or expansion or whatever the hell they'll call the additional charge to finish their story (example: Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood which expanded on the mediore AC2 ending).

If you look at the story unbiasedly you'd see its many flaws. Here's two of the bigger ones that just aggrovate me to no end. What was the point of Flemeth even being in the game? And the entire Red Lyrium Idol plot device. What was it? What does it do? Where'd it come from? The game doesn't answer these, it doesn't even care to have other people ask the question. It's just magic and it can raise ghosts, drive you insane, or make you a demi-god.

There's more I could say but this is a spoiler-free forum.

I am guessing flemmeth showed up becuase she needed Hawke to do that task for her, while she worked in fereldin. Didnt see it as an issue, they both needed eachother to do something for them.

But yeah its a good story, but the issue is, its not a finished one,. Or it is like LoTR that was the fellowship, but now we need another game, I can see its setting the world up for the big show down, but it still feels kinda empty, ofc the world could have stayed the same, its Hawke that needs closure.

[Alexus_VG]

@Foolsfolly
Agreed 100% that too much was left unsaid. Not only but the questions weren't even posed as if noone noticed. Ofcourse imagination is a vital part of CRPGs but at some points I felt that if I had to use any more imagination to fill the gaps I might as well be storytelling for myself and not playing this game.

[Lenimph]

And Origins was a storytelling masterpiece? *laughs*

Origins was the ultimate save the world cliche. Change a few things around and you had your typical fantasy novel. I think many would agree with me that what made the writing in DAO good was the companions, not the main plot. I would say it's the same for DA2.

A story doesn't have to have the clear and overwhelming antagonist to be considered good, nor does it even need to have an antagonist... DA2 presents us with main character that doesn't have a set personality and with party interaction that doesn't just rely on dialog. From what I've seen so far the plot and overall writing of DA2 was trying to bring out more complexity then DAO.

But whether it succeeded in doing so is subjective anyway. I don't even like Gaider... but he isn't the only one who writes the game, and I'm enjoying the characters as much as I did in the first.

Modifié par Lenimph, 11 mars 2011 - 09:23 .

[Perfect-Kenshin]

Part of the job. He gets paid to write. He should suck it up like a man if that's why he isn't coming here.

Modifié par Perfect-Kenshin, 11 mars 2011 - 09:20 .

[Xaltar81]

Ah, I am tired of seeing the "cliche" arguement when it comes to writing. Everything is "cliche" in that there really isn't anything new you can write. DA:O was better directed I think you can call it. It put you in the right places at the right times to draw you into your character and the story. DA2 failed completely to do that for me. Its not my style of game at all but that does not mean I think everyone should agree. To each their own.

[Foolsfolly]

Let's not forget that Hawke --the most important person who changes everything -- isn't even the most important person in his own life.

He finds an item.....and later kills the person who had it. You don't rally the templar/mages and start a worldwide event you just languish around in Kirkwall for ages doing repetitive and boring side-quests. The whole damned game is a side quest since there's only two main mission missions; go to the deep roads and the finale.

That's not good storytelling. Hawke never rises to anything, never compels anyone to do anything, you just do errands until someone else acts and you get pulled into it. How is that the destiny of the most important person ever? The person that reshapes everything?

[Alexus_VG]

Lenimph wrote...

And Origins was a storytelling masterpiece? *laughs*

Origins was the ultimate save the world cliche. Change a few things around and you had your typical fantasy novel. I think many would agree with me that what made the writing in DAO good was the companions, not the main plot. I would say it's the same for DA2.

A story doesn't have to have the clear and overwhelming antagonist to be considered good, nor does it even need to have an antagonist... DA2 presents us with main character that doesn't have a set personality and with party interaction that doesn't just rely on dialog. From what I've seen so far the plot and overall writing of DA2 was trying to bring out more complexity then DAO.

But whether it succeeded in doing so is subjective anyway. I don't even like Gaider... but he isn't the only one who writes the game, and I'm enjoy the characters as much as I did in the first.

Actually yes DA:O based on those points exactly is close to a masterpiece as CRPGs go.(which ofcourse is limited)
To take a story completly composed of classical elements and make it feel personal and involving via the characters and interaction the protagonist has with them while in the process showing how this journey is shaping him/her is the very deffinition of good writing imo

[this isnt my name]

Lenimph wrote...

And Origins was a storytelling masterpiece? *laughs*

Origins was the ultimate save the world cliche. Change a few things around and you had your typical fantasy novel. I think many would agree with me that what made the writing in DAO good was the companions, not the main plot. I would say it's the same for DA2.

A story doesn't have to have the clear and overwhelming antagonist to be considered good, nor does it even need to have an antagonist... DA2 presents us with main character that doesn't have a set personality and with party interaction that doesn't just rely on dialog. From what I've seen so far the plot and overall writing of DA2 was trying to bring out more complexity then DAO.

But whether it succeeded in doing so is subjective anyway. I don't even like Gaider... but he isn't the only one who writes the game, and I'm enjoy the characters as much as I did in the first.

He isnt the only writer but he is the lead writer.
Also companions are better, here they have their own agenda, to me that adds depth, better than those who can be talked out of thier personality so easily. Ironically people complain about dumbing down, but the plot gets more complex and they hate it,

@alexus (that was your name I think) you mean like how oorigins went over the eluvian ?
Now I dont think much about the plot, but thats an issue straight away for me, so there are likely more, DAO aint perfect, some people really muct have some sort of nostalgia here becuase its a good game, but it had the same flaws, look at origins graphics, yet people complain its worse, they both suck graphics wise.

[AlanC9]

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...

Part of the job. He gets paid to write. He should suck it up like a man if that's why he isn't coming here.

You really figure that's why he's not here?

[Alexus_VG]

this isnt my name wrote...

@alexus (that was your name I think) you mean like how oorigins went over the eluvian ?
Now I dont think much about the plot, but thats an issue straight away for me, so there are likely more, DAO aint perfect, some people really muct have some sort of nostalgia here becuase its a good game, but it had the same flaws, look at origins graphics, yet people complain its worse, they both suck graphics wise.

Ofcourse DA:O was not perfect. I didn't think it was then and I don't think so now. Would I say it is the best CRPG I've played? Yes I deffinetly would.

[Xaltar81]

Lets leave graphics out of this please. This is not a thread about the games technical flaws it is a thread about one of the developers who has been unserupticiously bashed for the last few days. I just wanted to let him know that some of us still value his input and his contributions to Bioware as a whole dispite the failings of DA2 in the eyes of some.

[Scars Unseen]

blowoutware wrote...

There are childrens books with better written and more cohesive plots than this mess.

True, but The Phantom Tollbooth is 50 years old now, so I don't think it should count.

[Zjarcal]

errant_knight wrote...
The cutscene approach doesn't help at all. Nor does the camera view that has us looking at a character who is supposed to be us from the opposing POV when we talk.

There were many conversations in Origins where the camera would also focus on the player.

[Alexus_VG]

Xaltar81 wrote...

Lets leave graphics out of this please. This is not a thread about the games technical flaws it is a thread about one of the developers who has been unserupticiously bashed for the last few days. I just wanted to let him know that some of us still value his input and his contributions to Bioware as a whole dispite the failings of DA2 in the eyes of some.

Sure thing I'm with you on that. Here is to Gader. I still like his work,style and characters even if I don't like DA2 as a whole.

[upsettingshorts]

AlanC9 wrote...

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...

Part of the job. He gets paid to write. He should suck it up like a man if that's why he isn't coming here.

You really figure that's why he's not here?

I already pointed out where he is.  He posted a couple hours ago in the Spoiler forum.  He posted yesterday too.  And nowhere in his job description is it written - likely, anyway, I havent seen his contract obviously - that he needs to come here and post at all.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 11 mars 2011 - 09:40 .

[Xaltar81]

I already pointed out where he is. He posted a couple hours ago in the Spoiler forum. He posted yesterday too. And nowhere in his job description is it written - likely, anyway, I havent seen his contract obviously - that he needs to come here and post at all.

Exactly, I believe he came here to get a look at the feeback and was offended by the amount of bashing and uninformative criticizims flying about. I just wanted there to be something positive to see should he return.

[Aeowyn]

Zjarcal wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
The cutscene approach doesn't help at all. Nor does the camera view that has us looking at a character who is supposed to be us from the opposing POV when we talk.

There were many conversations in Origins where the camera would also focus on the player.

In fact, I think many people actually complained that they only got to stare at their Warden's back too much, and whenever it did focus to the Warden's face there was no emotion whatsoever.

[Xaltar81]

Cinematics = technical please take this debate elsewhere guys

[Zjarcal]

Xaltar81 wrote...

I just wanted to let him know that some of us still value his input and his contributions to Bioware as a whole dispite the failings of DA2 in the eyes of some.

I'm pretty sure he knows that. There were will always be criticisms, and as usual, the critics are loud... very loud. That will hardly make him doubt himself.

At any rate, cheers to Gaider and the writing team. 

[FlintlockJazz]

It's a decent concept, and one that I would love (DA2's storyline) normally, I think the issue most people have is the implementation. Most Bioware games, including DAO, have some rather bad 'emo-teen' writing in, DA2 just seems (for some) to have needed a bit more time in the microwave. You just can't rush good writing.

[FDrage]

Can't say yet muhc about the story, etc. ... but that overall is something I'm looking most forward to, when compared to a few other things in DA2 :

Donkeycow wrote...

Edit:
Also Tom Bombadil did NOT need to be in the movies, he is a pointless character in the books lol

.

he isn't pointless at all. At least not if you dive a bit into his background he is quiet interesting.

However the whole part in LotR that plays in that Forest is just tooo easy to cut out and any Book to Movie translation always needs to cut things. If someone doesn't know the book they will never really miss it. Same thing with what happened between the "path of the Dead" and the army if the "undead" helping out.

[ev0k3r]

It's funny how all those that say it was a ****ty story and all post from accounts that don't have DA2 activated. Never played the game or afraid of getting banned?

Pathetic...

I read both of the books and they were OK. The writing is mediocre but you put your imagination at work. It was no damn biography.

Even Red Dead Redemption that gave you the feeling for having an amazing story, it was just the old cliche cowboy story but it was so great because of the way it was told. I'm not past Act 1 in DA2 yet so I won't judge the story just yet since the story telling is the same as in Origins but with better cutscenes.

Modifié par ev0k3r, 11 mars 2011 - 10:31 .