196 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

Mr. Gaider is likely on vacation. When DA:O launched, the staff seemed to take a well-needed break. The story doesn't seem to be poorly written to me, I just am not sure I like the direction of the game design in many areas.

[Kenaris]

Darji wrote...

the story in general is bad. Especially in the detail. For example if you are a mage people should kknow that you are one epecially when you have fought with or infront of them. Its stupid that people after a fight still say bad mages and luckily we are not ne of them but moments ago he already saw that i am a mage or also have another mage in my party....

Origins was much cleverer in  this aspect. It was far more detailed.

lay off the drugs... without giving any spoliers away there are alot of npcs and party members that refer and talk about your char being a mage... Fenris just to name one.. and they do it alot more then anyone ever did in DA:O or DA:A

Just so you know cleverer is not even a word it sort of like spectaculis

[PurpleJesus]

 Ok ill part from my usual tripe remarks lately mostly due to my sense of disappointment with DA2 and give true opinion. 

Why have a known Antagonist ?

It provides focus , a goal if you will , a singular force which represents all that is wrong with the world. 

Why ? because it works.

This week it will be Quidaffi (no idea if that is spelled right)
last week it was Sadam Hussein.

Look how the human mind wants to simplify the trouble of a whole region into one singular person .
 It is effective and provides focus.

You can argue that all great stories are mostly a rehash of a Greek fable or legend. The Greeks really nailed literature before anyone. And most Epic tales are a reinterpretation.

There are 2 types of Evil characters typically , one far more compelling than the other. There is evil for the sake of evil , or simply born bad you might say , and there is the concept of the fallen .   The latter being much harder to develop in literature , movies , or art.  But if successful  would instantly become a classic figure.

Born bad is easy , Lord of the rings uses the born bad model , and in my opinion produces the weaker and less compelling villain in Sauron , but also develops the more compelling and complex Golem , a prime example of the fallen . 

But as i am in this forum i will chose some different examples . 

Star Wars , Darth Vader.
A modern classic of the fallen. 

Born innocent , born "Good" but due to a character flaw becomes evil , in this case hate.
it is his weakness that is his downfall , and he is the "Bad Guy" to which the hero's must test their metal.
It is not hero's strength of body which will prevail but strength of character. A "classic" Example of the   Antagonist  written 
to great effect. 

Dragon Lance: Raistlin Majere. 

Another Great Example , in this case his weakness is pride.

Xmen: magnito 

His weakness is Fear. 

In all of these examples there is a known Antagonist, they are the backdrop against which the hero can show their virtue. 
Often by successfully overcoming that which corrupted the villain. 

Most classic stories , and most Greek "Epic" tales revolve around these concepts. The setting can be space , earth , or fantasy. It is the tale of the human condition , that is Epic. 

And it is lacking in Da2 , as there is no force present to which the hero can prove his worth . And thereby feels less Epic. 

I will argue that in DAO this was present, in the Tivinter mages.... Their downfall .. Ambition . 
The Grey wardens , their virtue .. self sacrifice.

The stage is set from the beginning for a "Epic" tale. This is missing from the second installment.
The lack of a clearly defined Antagonist  waters down the story , and no amount of combat , or flash can compensate for this. 

Dont dismiss "classic" stories , or their power to speak to the human soul. 
The writing in DA2 was weaker for it's absence . 

I don't hate Dave , i suspect he may be Canadian , which by default makes him cool . 
Back bacon forever!

But even the greats are capable of mediocrity, i see no reason to not be critical im sure he can handle it.


Ok now back to mindless game bashing. 
 
 






  

Modifié par PurpleJesus, 14 mars 2011 - 07:55 .

[Bachmors]

I think DA2 had the better story ... the big, bad evil-theme of DA:O wasn't really motivating in my opinion.
The story could have been better delievered, but I found it superior to the one of DA:O nonetheless.

[Xaltar81]

There is no substitute in Fantasy writing for "the big bad". Fantasy has a formula and frankly, the term "Dark Fantasy" is all too often used as an excuse for bad writing much like "alternative" is often used to discribe bad music. A truely epic fantasy tale should always have a definable goal from fairly early on in the story and build up throughout toward a final showdown. I find it funny how this rash of "Dark fantasy" stories seem to be coming out alongside a lot of this staged reality show crap. If I want reality I wouldn't bother turning on my PC. I don't want to understand what it feels like to be poor in a game, or to have to work at things I dislike to earn a living for my family. These things can be a good starting point for a fantasy tale but devoting fully 3/4 of the game to it was IMO just bad. I think what we are mostly seeing here is that people who play a broad spectrum of game genres are enjoying DA2 where people such as myself who are geared almost solely toward fantasy RPG titles found it to be not just bad but appalling. DA2 is a watered down comercial exploit designed to capitalise on DA:O's success and make a bit of the money back that EA has sunk into thier MMO that isn't panning out as well as they had hoped.

I went out and baught awakening instead. You couldn't pay me to have this travesty of a game on my PC but I still support Bioware as a whole. Saying that DA2 had a better story is like saying spaceballs was more immersive that Star Wars. The story is almost a token element in a hack and slash JRPG. I'm not saying the story concept was bad, but it was very badly delivered and extreemly watered down almost throughout the time I played the game. After reading the modders comments on DA2 aswell I lost even more respect for EA. Clearly there will not be a toolset for DA2 seeing as a large part of the 1.5 year dev time seems to have gone into protecting EA's precious assets and code.

For future reference, less time on security and more time on puting out a game that doesn't blow chunks. Is DA2 a failed title? No, definately not, it has a fair few fans even now but is it up to what we expect from our favorite RPG devs? That I believe I need not answer. Come on guys, don't let EA ruin you and turn you into another tacky formula game dev team.

Modifié par Xaltar81, 15 mars 2011 - 11:40 .

[JrayM16]

I'm all in favor of breaking standard plot structure. Thus DA2's story was very cool to me.

[JrayM16]

Xaltar81 wrote...

There is no substitute in Fantasy writing for "the big bad". Fantasy has a formula and frankly, the term "Dark Fantasy" is all too often used as an excuse for bad writing much like "alternative" is often used to discribe bad music. A truely epic fantasy tale should always have a definable goal from fairly early on in the story and build up throughout toward a final showdown. I find it funny how this rash of "Dark fantasy" stories seem to be coming out alongside a lot of this staged reality show crap. If I want reality I wouldn't bother turning on my PC. I don't want to understand what it feels like to be poor in a game, or to have to work at things I dislike to earn a living for my family. These things can be a good starting point for a fantasy tale but devoting fully 3/4 of the game to it was IMO just bad. I think what we are mostly seeing here is that people who play a broad spectrum of game genres are enjoying DA2 where people such as myself who are geared almost solely toward fantasy RPG titles found it to be not just bad but appalling. DA2 is a watered down comercial exploit designed to capitalise on DA:O's success and make a bit of the money back that EA has sunk into thier MMO that isn't panning out as well as they had hoped.

I went out and baught awakening instead. You couldn't pay me to have this travesty of a game on my PC but I still support Bioware as a whole. Saying that DA2 had a better story is like saying spaceballs was more immersive that Star Wars. The story is almost a token element in a hack and slash JRPG. I'm not saying the story concept was bad, but it was very badly delivered and extreemly watered down almost throughout the time I played the game. After reading the modders comments on DA2 aswell I lost even more respect for EA. Clearly there will not be a toolset for DA2 seeing as a large part of the 1.5 year dev time seems to have gone into protecting EA's precious assets and code.

For future reference, less time on security and more time on puting out a game that doesn't blow chunks. Is DA2 a failed title? No, definately not, it has a fair few fans even now but is it up to what we expect from our favorite RPG devs? That I believe I need not answer. Come on guys, don't let EA ruin you and turn you into another tacky formula game dev team.

So, you say they should stick to the fantasy story formula and keep EA from turning them into a formula game team?

Contradictions?

[bEVEsthda]

If one reads some of that Knowles fella's blogs, one get some feeling of how things are run at EA,... - sorry, I mean Bioware, - these days. Along with that one also get a feeling that maybe David G. never had a chance, and a feeling that is maybe also why he feels there is nothing he can say on the forums any longer. Finally, one also get a feeling of how such a thing as Dragon Age could derail so totally, as it has with DA2.

[mcha82]

What story in Dragon Age 2 are people talking about? Sometimes I wonder if we are even playing the same game.

Until the final act of DA2, the story is very abstract and nonexistant. There are hints at it and events that might effect your opinion, but the majority of the story in DA2 consists of Hawke bopping around Kirkwall at the behest of other people.

[FellowerOfOdin]

David said Twilight did the romances right...that's all I need to judge an author's credibility.

Modifié par FellowerOfOdin, 16 mars 2011 - 12:05 .

[22nd MadJack]

I am sure his heart is broken, that is, until he checks his bank balance.

[Cobrawar]

I think david's is too egocentric. the story is too linear

[Mahrdol]

Xaltar81 wrote...

I have noticed he hasn't been back on the forums for quite a while. I just feel that it may be good for him to know that while many of us hate DA2, we do not in any way blame him for it. From what I saw of the story for DA2 it looked well written, clever and interesting. I love the story but can't stand the way it was delivered. I was briefly tempted to try and recreate DA2 in DA:O toolset after looking at the DA2 story, it would be too much work for a single modder though . The game itself fails to put it forward the writing that went into it. I have seen a few people praising both the game and the story but for the most part, people that do not like the game are hardly able to see the story beyond all thier gripes. Its like all of the lord of the rings book fans were unable to appreciate the movies because of the outrage they felt about the changes made. That did not make the movies bad.

We love you David, please don't feel like your fans have turned on you.

Looks like he is around to me

3 hour(s) ago
David Gaider replied to topic Requesting Leandra Hawke DLC
3 hour(s) ago
David Gaider replied to topic Requesting Leandra Hawke DLC
3 hour(s) ago
David Gaider replied to topic Requesting Leandra Hawke DLC
7 hour(s) ago
David Gaider replied to topic So Isabela and kids and Anders last name.
7 hour(s) ago
David Gaider replied to topic i'm not calling you a liar bioware
7 hour(s) ago
David Gaider replied to topic i'm not calling you a liar bioware
8 hour(s) ago
David Gaider replied to topic So Isabela and kids and Anders last name.

Modifié par Mahrdol, 16 mars 2011 - 12:12 .

[Kortok]

DA2 story is terrible, just like most other aspects of the game.

[Xaltar81]

JrayM16 wrote...

Xaltar81 wrote...

 don't let EA ruin you and turn you into another tacky formula game dev team.

So, you say they should stick to the fantasy story formula and keep EA from turning them into a formula game team?

Contradictions?

There is a huge difference between a writing formula and a formula game. I wouldn't think I should have to explain this but here goes. A writing formula is always needed whe coming up with a story, its a vital part of the concepting phase. A formula game is where the developers sit down and go over the numbers and decide where to cut corners, things like recylcling assets, cutting back on details and most importantly, what will people pay to play based on past successes. This doesn't sound bad, and isn't, most game developers do this before production gets under way, what differs between good forward planning and making formula titles however is that the formula title does the bare minimum to make a game that looks "cool" enough to hook people into buying it. Formula games are where the Devs are forced to use as little resources as possible, thus saving money, and put out a crappy title that will sell and make money because its "cough" Crysis 2. Formula games are the bane of the industry where they really should be an asset to it. Every company needs a formula title once in a while to generate some quick revenue but what EA does is different, everything with EA is formula as you can see with DA2, like it or no my points about recycled assets, lack of depth and rushed feel are all pertinent. The fact that there are people defending the game only serves my point, EA know thier market and know exactly what will sell. They could care less if 60% of the fanbase of a franchise is in an uproar, most of that 60% baught the game and the remaining 40% is still hundreds of thousands of sales. Will the game be popular in 6 months? Who cares we have ME3 comming out by then.

This is why Formula games are bad, companies like EA don't use them as quick revenue to fund true AAA titles, the use them as quick revenue to line their pockets and fail to see the point of making a game that is actually good when they can make money off swill with far less effort and investment. EA = Corporate, Bioware used to be about the games. How well they will weather the change remains to be seen but I do forsee many Bioware staff taking the same route as Knowels, maybe in a year or so we will hear about a new dev company breaking into the market.

[errant_knight]

Kortok wrote...

DA2 story is terrible, just like most other aspects of the game.

Unfair. Act Two was excellent.

[TheMyrddon]

errant_knight wrote...

Kortok wrote...

DA2 story is terrible, just like most other aspects of the game.

Unfair. Act Two was excellent.

The only excellent part about part 2 was hawke's mother storyline.

[Nightfish103]

The fact that many people think this is a good story makes me cringe. I mean, seriously, in many cases the writing is incredibly hamfisted and things play out the way the plot says they play out regardless of what you do. That's fine in a JRPG, but can I please have some impact on the game here? Maybe?

Like, there's this one case where I'm going to investigate a certain group I have supported in the past and they attack me and force me to kill them for no reason. Just because the plot says the conflict has to escalate. That's fine when you're dealing with Darkspawn. I don't expect to be able to reason with them. But it's not fine when we're dealing with actual people.

Honestly, most of the time I feel like I'm just watching things happen. I try to work towards a certain end but then the game comes along and negates my efforts because it needs more drama. The problems that present themselves are sort of random as well and solutions are within easy reach but suddenly Hawke goes into retard mode for a cutscene or two because we don't do simple solutions. Oh, doooiiii, the thief ran off with the artifact we needed to solve our problems? Who would have thought... OH WAIT... He just said he would do ANYTHING to get it. How come you just let him go?

Then there's these random jumps 3 years into the future... I mean, seriously... This is jarring. I fail to see why this was necessary, too. I never got a sense of time passing either. Everything looked the same, everyone acted like nothing had happened. At no point did this make me feel more "epic". The "hey, let's not do this quest now because then we'll skip ahead in time" warning didn't help much either. It's so arbitrary. I'm still in the same city, I could just as easily do the other quests tomorrow, but no... Hawke is about to go into autopilot for 3 years so he has to do the fetch quests first... This really helps immersion.

I'll refrain from the Twilight comments because I have not nor will I read those books. I didn't think the romances in Bioware games were that bad, but then again, I'm not looking for a dating sim here.


I've got deep respect for Mr Gaider and he's done some outstanding work in the past, but Dragon Age 2 thoroughly disappointed me on a scale I never thought Bioware was capable of. Even if I forgive the issues with gameplay, the STORY disappoints. A Bioware game disappointing on that account is like... the end is nigh? Cats and dogs making out, etc...

Modifié par Nightfish103, 16 mars 2011 - 08:34 .

[Massadonious1]

Yes, opinions make me cringe too.

[TwistedComplex]

TheMyrddon wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Kortok wrote...

DA2 story is terrible, just like most other aspects of the game.

Unfair. Act Two was excellent.

The only excellent part about part 2 was hawke's mother storyline.

To me, that was the worst part...

[TheMyrddon]

TwistedComplex wrote...

TheMyrddon wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Kortok wrote...

DA2 story is terrible, just like most other aspects of the game.

Unfair. Act Two was excellent.

The only excellent part about part 2 was hawke's mother storyline.

To me, that was the worst part...

To eaches own I guess, but that was the only part where I actually cared even the slightest for any of the characters.

[mmmmmmPie]

Mahrdol wrote...

Xaltar81 wrote...

I have noticed he hasn't been back on the forums for quite a while. I just feel that it may be good for him to know that while many of us hate DA2, we do not in any way blame him for it. From what I saw of the story for DA2 it looked well written, clever and interesting. I love the story but can't stand the way it was delivered. I was briefly tempted to try and recreate DA2 in DA:O toolset after looking at the DA2 story, it would be too much work for a single modder though . The game itself fails to put it forward the writing that went into it. I have seen a few people praising both the game and the story but for the most part, people that do not like the game are hardly able to see the story beyond all thier gripes. Its like all of the lord of the rings book fans were unable to appreciate the movies because of the outrage they felt about the changes made. That did not make the movies bad.

We love you David, please don't feel like your fans have turned on you.

Looks like he is around to me

3 hour(s) ago
David Gaider replied to topic Requesting Leandra Hawke DLC
3 hour(s) ago
David Gaider replied to topic Requesting Leandra Hawke DLC
3 hour(s) ago
David Gaider replied to topic Requesting Leandra Hawke DLC
7 hour(s) ago
David Gaider replied to topic So Isabela and kids and Anders last name.
7 hour(s) ago
David Gaider replied to topic i'm not calling you a liar bioware
7 hour(s) ago
David Gaider replied to topic i'm not calling you a liar bioware
8 hour(s) ago
David Gaider replied to topic So Isabela and kids and Anders last name.

Gaider is a perfect example of someone Bioware needs to just take the keys to the internet way from.  That man should not be posting in this or any other DA related forum.  He is not doing the company any favors.

"Not everyone can make a successful sequel." was a riot!

[Icinix]

I loved the story.

All of it.

Gaider. You made me happy, sad, angry and replay various sections in the hope I could change the outcome. You told a story, it left me hungering for more, but afraid of the consequences of my actions. Well done.