196 réponses à ce sujet

[tanerb123]

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Modifié par tanerb123, 16 mars 2011 - 07:21 .

[RVallant]

Iamnotahater wrote...
*snip*

Coming from other forums discussing it, some rather annoyed views regarding the circumstances of Flemeth, Anders and the ending girl who crops up.

More so is Gaider's alleged comment (since I haven't seen it myself, yet) towards it i.e. "You only thought you killed character xxx in Origins".

I really ain't that fussed anymore, but I've always said hand-waving and retconning decisions and not trapdooring characters smartly was always going to be pulled up as shoddy writing.

[JabbaDaHutt30]

RVallant wrote...

Iamnotahater wrote...
*snip*

Coming from other forums discussing it, some rather annoyed views regarding the circumstances of Flemeth, Anders and the ending girl who crops up.

More so is Gaider's alleged comment (since I haven't seen it myself, yet) towards it i.e. "You only thought you killed character xxx in Origins".

I really ain't that fussed anymore, but I've always said hand-waving and retconning decisions and not trapdooring characters smartly was always going to be pulled up as shoddy writing.

don't tell me a certain girl with fiery hair still appears at the end even if she was said to be dead... 

I don't know anything about Anders from Awakening since I have only played the beginning of it but,

It was already said by Morrigan that Flemeth would not simply die in Origins. Morrigan said that after her quest I think, and reconfirmed it in Witch Hunt. 

[TheMadCat]

Nashiktal wrote...

Video games are amongst the hardest to write for. Much harder than for a movie or a T.V. series. I really respect video game writers, no matter the game.

(I don't respect suddenly switching out writers though, like this did from ME1-2.)

What makes you think writing plot and dialogue is more difficult in games then movies or TV shows? I'd argue it's one of the easier mediums to write in. It's not as constrained for time as a movie is, (Imagine condensing Origins, Mass Effect, or DA2 into a 2-3 hour film). It's not the single primary component of a game which means other areas of the game can help mask any flaws it may have. The standard for video game wiring is so freaking low that managing to make a coherent plot and decent dialogue get's you put into the upper echelon, (BioWare isn't exactly recreating Godfather's, Shawshanks, Goodfella's, or Unforgiven's here).

So yeah, what makes video game writing so much more difficult? Or as I said, is the standard so low you're just impressed when someone comes up with something decent?

[RVallant]

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

RVallant wrote...

Iamnotahater wrote...
*snip*

Coming from other forums discussing it, some rather annoyed views regarding the circumstances of Flemeth, Anders and the ending girl who crops up.

More so is Gaider's alleged comment (since I haven't seen it myself, yet) towards it i.e. "You only thought you killed character xxx in Origins".

I really ain't that fussed anymore, but I've always said hand-waving and retconning decisions and not trapdooring characters smartly was always going to be pulled up as shoddy writing.

don't tell me a certain girl with fiery hair still appears at the end even if she was said to be dead... 

I don't know anything about Anders from Awakening since I have only played the beginning of it but,

It was already said by Morrigan that Flemeth would not simply die in Origins. Morrigan said that after her quest I think, and reconfirmed it in Witch Hunt.

Mmhmm, yes. I was surprised to see her in there but I didn't think anything of it until it was pointed out she can die in Origins and that will be ret-conned regardless. I knew of Anders' mortality in Awakenings and brought it up ages ago but no one really cared.

Flemeth, I'm curious about because you do have the option of not fighting her in Origins so...

But yeah, don't give me a choice if it's going to be taken away from me for 'story' purposes in such a way is the general point of those who give two hoots about their choices mattering.

[JrayM16]

Xaltar81 wrote...

JrayM16 wrote...

Xaltar81 wrote...

 don't let EA ruin you and turn you into another tacky formula game dev team.

So, you say they should stick to the fantasy story formula and keep EA from turning them into a formula game team?

Contradictions?

There is a huge difference between a writing formula and a formula game. I wouldn't think I should have to explain this but here goes. A writing formula is always needed whe coming up with a story, its a vital part of the concepting phase. A formula game is where the developers sit down and go over the numbers and decide where to cut corners, things like recylcling assets, cutting back on details and most importantly, what will people pay to play based on past successes. This doesn't sound bad, and isn't, most game developers do this before production gets under way, what differs between good forward planning and making formula titles however is that the formula title does the bare minimum to make a game that looks "cool" enough to hook people into buying it. Formula games are where the Devs are forced to use as little resources as possible, thus saving money, and put out a crappy title that will sell and make money because its "cough" Crysis 2. Formula games are the bane of the industry where they really should be an asset to it. Every company needs a formula title once in a while to generate some quick revenue but what EA does is different, everything with EA is formula as you can see with DA2, like it or no my points about recycled assets, lack of depth and rushed feel are all pertinent. The fact that there are people defending the game only serves my point, EA know thier market and know exactly what will sell. They could care less if 60% of the fanbase of a franchise is in an uproar, most of that 60% baught the game and the remaining 40% is still hundreds of thousands of sales. Will the game be popular in 6 months? Who cares we have ME3 comming out by then.

This is why Formula games are bad, companies like EA don't use them as quick revenue to fund true AAA titles, the use them as quick revenue to line their pockets and fail to see the point of making a game that is actually good when they can make money off swill with far less effort and investment. EA = Corporate, Bioware used to be about the games. How well they will weather the change remains to be seen but I do forsee many Bioware staff taking the same route as Knowels, maybe in a year or so we will hear about a new dev company breaking into the market.

I understand the difference, I was just pointing out a slight double-standard. 

DA2 has a story formula, it's just not the typical fantasy story formula.  It is an immigrant story formula, coupled with a classic rise to power arc. 

ANd no, a formula game refers to a game being generic, not specifically cutting corners. 

[aries1001]

I'm not sure what you mean by David Gaider not coming to the forums anymore. He's posted in this thread today (spoilers ahead, though): http://social.biowar...index/6589945/1
Why David Gaider is no longer with us in General Discussion, I don't know. Maybe, perhaps, he has work to do?

And does the whole 'I think I killed someone, so they're dead' approach not contradict the lore of Thedas itself. No resurrection - at all. (if my memories serve me well). However, the Leliana thing in the the chamber (the sacred urn quest in DA: Origins) could possibly be explained away. As for the option to kill Flemeth, this was a necessary part of the development of the story in DA: Origins and a well made pointer, way, to get closer, more intimate, with Morrigan.

It makes sense, to me, at least, that the lead writer will spend more of his time in the story forums than here in the General Discussion, especially after the game has been released.

[RVallant]

aries1001 wrote...

I'm not sure what you mean by David Gaider not coming to the forums anymore. He's posted in this thread today (spoilers ahead, though): http://social.biowar...index/6589945/1
Why David Gaider is no longer with us in General Discussion, I don't know. Maybe, perhaps, he has work to do?

And does the whole 'I think I killed someone, so they're dead' approach not contradict the lore of Thedas itself. No resurrection - at all. (if my memories serve me well). However, the Leliana thing in the the chamber (the sacred urn quest in DA: Origins) could possibly be explained away. As for the option to kill Flemeth, this was a necessary part of the development of the story in DA: Origins and a well made pointer, way, to get closer, more intimate, with Morrigan.

It makes sense, to me, at least, that the lead writer will spend more of his time in the story forums than here in the General Discussion, especially after the game has been released.

Yes yes, I decapticated her and picked up her head but obviously the warden hallunicated that >.>

As I said it's all fine and dandy hand waving things but it'll still irk people and to be honest I'm more empathic to the gamer in those instances rather than the developer. (Unless that was how it was supposed to be written in which, case, epic points for good writing, but it wasn't so it's a moot point.)

[aries1001]

If you look at the credits list back in your Dragon Age: Origins or Awakenings manual, David Gaider is the Lead Writer of all Dragon Age games. However, even Lead Writers have managers, and bosses.
The DA franchise has Mark Darrah for Project Director and Mike Laidlaw for Lead Designer. Of course, they'll have meetings with David Gaider, and talk about thing, but it is still those above him that -ahem- decides, that'll take the final decisions.

As for the Leli being dead things, myabe, just maybe there was something in those mountains?

[aries1001]

double post sorry...

Modifié par aries1001, 16 mars 2011 - 08:32 .

[Foxkit182]

Xaltar81 wrote...

I think perhaps some people overestimate the writers influence in the overall game.

I think this statement sums up a lot. Bioware has always placed more importance on writing and story than is industry standard, but that doesn't mean that the writers necessarily have a huge say in the overall production scheme. From what I've seen, they are included much more than is usual at Bioware, but ultimately it's the Game Designers that determine the overall vision and goal and then give that to the writers with a request for quests to match. Now I could be wrong about this entirely since I'm not lucky enough to work at Bioware, but having attended the GDC several times, I can sadly say that us writers are not considered influential when it comes to the end design of a game. So it's not really fair to blame only the writing team for this game's downfall. Personally, I find the story intrigueing and just wish the game mechanics backed it up better, rather than kind of getting in the way.

[Rawgrim]

I liked the story in DA2. It was arguably one of the strong points of the game.

[Gterror]

 

[Aurgelmir]

I think all the Bioware guys who come to the forum actually seem to be nice enough, and mostly professional, except David Gaider. He seems obsessed with linear storytelling and has little regard for what the fans want to see. I don't really see Bioware posts filled with hubris and arrogance, but when I do its often his.

Someone needs to remind him that this is an RPG and not a David Gaider novel.

[Sylvianus]

Poor David Gaider ? Why ? There will always be people who love what he does, and others who will not like. Why this sudden need to bring a message of support as if he had failed ?

Opinions are opinions. He needn't to be ashamed to see that some did not like his story. He is a great writer, he has done amazing things, not spitting on what he is, what he did, say that this story is not as epic as what has already been done before.

We have great producers, great writers who have made ​​great movies, writing wonderful novels, this doesn't mean we will love each of their creations.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 16 mars 2011 - 09:00 .

[Aurgelmir]

aries1001 wrote...
As for the Leli being dead things, myabe, just maybe there was something in those mountains?

Yeah, a big f*** off dragon at the top of a freezing mountain filled to the brim with psychopaths. So I'm to believe after killing her, stripping her naked of all her valuables and leaving her there during a blight, she just got up and walked out the door.

I'd like to see him write that one. On second thought, I'd hate to read about how flemeth's breasts come to the rescue again.

Modifié par Aurgelmir, 16 mars 2011 - 09:06 .

[Foxkit182]

TheMadCat wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Video games are amongst the hardest to write for. Much harder than for a movie or a T.V. series. I really respect video game writers, no matter the game.

(I don't respect suddenly switching out writers though, like this did from ME1-2.)

What makes you think writing plot and dialogue is more difficult in games then movies or TV shows? I'd argue it's one of the easier mediums to write in. It's not as constrained for time as a movie is, (Imagine condensing Origins, Mass Effect, or DA2 into a 2-3 hour film). It's not the single primary component of a game which means other areas of the game can help mask any flaws it may have. The standard for video game wiring is so freaking low that managing to make a coherent plot and decent dialogue get's you put into the upper echelon, (BioWare isn't exactly recreating Godfather's, Shawshanks, Goodfella's, or Unforgiven's here).

So yeah, what makes video game writing so much more difficult? Or as I said, is the standard so low you're just impressed when someone comes up with something decent?

I'm with Nashiktal on this one. Video games are one of the hardest mediums to write for, contrary to how it may seem. It's the lack of constraint, the non-linearity that makes them more difficult than the other styles. For example, in a movie or novel, you have a very clear path from beginning, to middle, to end. In games, especially good ones, players are supposed to be able to do things in whatever order they want. Which means that to write the quests, you somehow have to be able to preserve a thread of cohesive story tying everything together, but they have to make sense from no matter what point you enter into them.

And then there's the conversations. A novel/movie writer only has to write one version of each set of dialogue. In a game, every single conversation has to be written with at least two and usually more like three or four different variations. As a writer, I can say this is really hard to do. When you write a character, you know who they are, how they will react, what they sound like, etc. A game character almost suffers from multiple personality disorder, forcing the writer to have to write them several different ways in the same scene. Challenging to say the least.

And finally there's the world itself. A game writer is responsible for filling a world with all kinds of back-story, lore, languages, etc that make it feel like a well-developed place. Most players will only see at most 30-40%of all the writing work that goes into a game. Whereas people enjoying any other medium see more like 85-90% of everything the creator made.

Personally, this seems like a much harder job than simply writing a novel/tv show/movie. But maybe that's just me.

[TheMadCat]

Foxkit182 wrote...

I'm with Nashiktal on this one. Video games are one of the hardest mediums to write for, contrary to how it may seem. It's the lack of constraint, the non-linearity that makes them more difficult than the other styles. For example, in a movie or novel, you have a very clear path from beginning, to middle, to end. In games, especially good ones, players are supposed to be able to do things in whatever order they want.

But that same general forumla is still there. There is still a beggining, a middle, and an end. The fact some games allow you to make inconsequential choices in what specific order major events play out in the middle doesn't make the actual writing more difficult. Hell choose your own adventure books were doing it way before games ever did.

Which means that to write the quests, you somehow have to be able to preserve
a thread of cohesive story tying everything together, but they have to
make sense from no matter what point you enter into them.

That has nothing to do with writing though. That's the project manager needing to determine how much of the game areas they can pad with sidequests before the flow of the story starts to get disrupted to the point it becomes harmful (All stories need a slight detraction from the main plot point, to much though ruins the flow). Once that's determined that the writers simply have to write the quests, so what role the writers do have in this particular isn't that difficult. 

And then there's the conversations. A novel/movie writer only has to write  one version of each set of dialogue. In a game, every single conversation has to be written with at least two and usually more like three or four different variations. As a writer, I can say this is really hard to do. When you write a character, you know who they are,
how they will react, what they sound like, etc. A game character almost suffers from multiple personality disorder, forcing the writer to have to write them several different ways in the same scene. Challenging to say the least.

But it's not necessarily challening, it's certainly more work but I wouldn't call it challenging. You can't attack it as a unique, defined character. Instead you have your archtype and you create that characters responses based on that archtype and the type of personalities you give that PC. Alter that archtype a bit down the road if necessary to give the impression of change and there you go. Like I said, it's more work because it multiplies the amount of dialogue needed, but more difficult then writing a very defined character? Don't know about that. 

And finally there's the world itself. A game writer is responsible for filling a world with all kinds of back-story, lore, languages, etc that make it feel like a well-developed place. Most players will only see at most 30-40%of all the writing work that goes into a game. Whereas people enjoying any other medium see more like 85-90% of everything the creator made.

I'm sorry, but this just spews ignorance. There has been quite a number if authors in the genres of fantasy, sci-fi, mythology, and other realms that have put in an unimaginable amount of work creating their worlds and their stories that you will never read about. I mean for God's sake this by default would apply to all original works. Do you think they sit at their desk and just pen whatever pops in their mind. You think you've gotten 85%-90% of everything authors such as Tolkien or Lewis have created? People who have spent lifetimes developing their creations? Insane notion you just presented.

I'm not trying to say wirting for a game is easy, writing for any medium at a professional level is incredibly difficult. But compared to the other mediums; you have far more creative control, time is much less a constraint, the standards are low which makes consumers and critics more willing to accept borderline crap, it's not the lone centerpiece in the product which means strengths in other areas can help mask poor writing and dialoge, and unlike novels you don't have to create the visual and atmosphere of every scene, instead that's already visualized for you. 

[HolyMoogle]

In terms of constructing a world/characters, standards may be lower on videogames than for other mediums. However, Bioware's dialogue system would take a special set of skills in and of themselves to write for - even if you're not making a huge difference to the overall plot, simply being able to pick your own way through conversations and having slight differences within that conversation would entail tonnes of extra writing, and significant skill.

Then again, sure, writing for Bulletstorm probably didn't cause to many late nights for the writer.

[Tristam25]

I for one don't hate it...and the plot is very easy to follow if you pay attention and remember what happened in the past. In my opinion recurring plot elements make the story more sophisticated. DA II is a good game and I can't wait for DA III; gotta have those questions from DA: O and DA: II answered.

This is what I compare DA: O and DA II to: good books.

The story may start off slow and you may not be interested, but the more you play the more the story grabs your interest. As you read (or play in this case) you always wonder, with much suspense, what will happen next. Finally, when it's all done, you are happy that the epic tale is over; but yet, you wish there were more to it, you hope to learn more. And in the case of cliffhangers, you definitely want to see resolution.

Modifié par Tristam25, 17 mars 2011 - 11:06 .

[Asch Lavigne]

I haven't seen much of Chris Priestly or even Mike Laidlaw either. It's probably not just the hate they're hiding from, it seems wise to be out of sight whenever a new game comes out regardless of how many people like it or hate it.