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[ReavousX]

 Just beat my first run through of Dragon Age 2, and I'm more or less satisfied.  Going to do my best not to make this a mini-review, but a some final thoughts on the game and where the Dragon Age series may be heading after this.  

To kick things off, I'd like to analyze the three act story frame used in DA 2.  In short, it's hardly a true three act story, as instead of beginning-middle-end, we're spread so thin on various stories and time, each act had a very destinct story arc of it's own.  Sure, everything is tied together, and main quests all serve their driving purpose, but here's what went wrong in my opinion.  You shouldn't be able to say:

Act 1 - Make money, go to deep roads.
Act 2 - Qunari cause trouble, begin converting followers, attempt to overthrow Kirkwall
Act 3 - Templars and Mages clash, bloodbath follows.

Now, everything IS tied together, with the Lyrium Idol, and the constant growing feud between Templars and Mages.  Also, don't forget the troubled Anders, and his ultimate choice to blow up the chantry.  My issue is, I don't feel like the ultimate issue, Templar/Mage, was prominent until the last minute.  How would the narrative feel if the "fat" was cut out of Act 1, and you found yourself in the deep roads early on, and were instead tasked with finding out what that lost Thaig was, as well as the idol, and finding Bartrand.  Throw in some templar vs. blood magic side quests, as well as an introduction to the "Qunari problem", and I think you might have a far more effective act one than what we played through.  This would also tidy up some of the questions left at the end of the game, as we know next to nothing about the idol, or this lost thaig we found it in.  

My only issue with Act 2 is that in the end, we're left with 10 seconds of Varric telling us about the growing issue between mages and templars, with Meredith assuming command.  An hour or two more of gameplay could have given us some much needed insight and development of the struggle.

I might be alone in this thought, but Act 3, and the conclusion, was just about perfect.  You had a general idea of where things were going, but it was never too predictable.  See: Anders becoming a terrorist.

You'll notice a few things missing from my "edited acts" above, most notably, the Hawke family.  This is a tool used to get you involved with the character right out of the gate, with the main character's brother/sister dying, and an emotional mother mourning on the run.  It's effective.  When the mother was murdered, I was legitimately angry.  The way the "White Lilly Killer" became more than a simple side quest was great, and it definitely helped with character development.  Ultimately though, the family is nothing more than that, a tool to get you involved in the story.  My gripe with the family is how prominent they were in the story telling in Act 1, to how little it mattered in Act 3.  Act 2 brings a proper balance to the family tool, the story was obviously being driven by other elements, but the family was relevant, and had you involved just enough to matter to your character.  The way DA 2 was promoted, I expected the family to be much more key to the storyline.  And yeah yeah, brother/sister turning templar/circle mage is nice, but is ultimately optional (and not much comes of it).  I'd have liked to this be a non-option, with serious implications on the plot.

Speaking of plot tools, let's talk about romance for a moment.  This is one of the few things I believe Origins had perfect.  In my recently completed playthrough, I romanced Merill, she's innocent (but not really), and sweet...what can I say I adored the character.  Interesting characters are great, and DA 2 is full of them, but the entire romance system in DA 2 is...just a burden.  Whether it's taking a trip to a love interest's location, searching for a gift, completing a companion quest, or checking the Hawke mansion (at night, not day, mind you) it all feels...unnatural.  I felt there was more time spent hopping maps than there was actually romancing the character.  Watching my wife playthrough with an Anders romance leads me to believe Merill isn't an isolated case.  I was okay with the changes with companions seen in Awakening, because everything felt accessible and hassel free, but DA 2 seems to have taken those changes, and amped them up.  What can I say, party camps work.  I had hoped to see the Hawke estate become a "headquarters" of sorts, giving all characters a residence and unique space...but keeping them close at hand.  No such luck though.  Also, I felt no real connection with Merill, which is a real disappointment.  The attatchments I made with love interests in Origins had me hooked, but Merill could have be squashed by a piece of blown up chantry...and I don't think I'd have really cared.  I'll be checking out other romances to see if I feel the same.

One big change that I am a fan of, is the companion friend/rival system.  What can I say, it just works.  Even in tight knit groups in real life, not every is the best of friends.  Differing opinions open eyes to different points of view, and if you go to far in an opposing direction, they may very well leave you or betray you.  I don't think this can completely erase a "love/hate' meter though.  Although pesky meter's with constant +'s or -'s can get annoying, it'd be nice to gauge just how adored your are by love interests, or how close to betrayal your rivals really are.

Ah, now to the "and Beyond" part of the thread.  We know that the Hero of Fereldan made a trip back to Denerim, and has since gone missing, as well as Hawke.  I urge Bioware to tread carefully, because this can lead to some expectations that will end in disappointment.  One of the first thought's of course, is that Hawke and Hero will end up working together towards a common goal.  Then, I can't help but feel that this would be disasterous.  Look at how poorly info transferred from Origins save files into DA 2, now imagine a new game, that not only featured your past deeds in Fereldan, but Hawke's choices from Kirkwall.  That would be...tough, to say the least.  Not to mention the task of two main characters in one story, we'd likely be left bouncing back and forth between the two main characters, with a mix and match of companions from both games.  That doesn't sound bad, come to think of it.  

Of course, nothing may come of this at all.  We know there's "trouble in Orlais", and DLC coming to DA 2 that may or may not take place after the battle at Kirkwall.  I'm excited to see what direction Bioware takes.

In closing, my experience with DA 2 was a good one, and will surely continue to be, but I'm noticeably less fulfilled than I was back when I beat Origins.  DA 2 did in fact, feel rushed.  Try to defend it all you want, but this was some of the most blatant, and painful examples of maps being reused I've ever come across.  I can deal with it, but it takes you out of the experience.  You could be completely emerged, as you should be in an RPG, and then you're ripped from it because you realize that you were JUST in this same cave, but it's not the same cave.  You're in a warehouse, but it's not a warehouse, it's a sewer!  Oh, now it's a dock!  Now it's an Archdemon's arse!  You get the idea.  Not to mention using stone slab doors to close off certain paths to change up the path you take, that's when a new cave map would come in handy.  

I've got tons of love for the Dragon Age series, but I sincerely hope that a few more years (yes, years) are taken to develop the next game.  I'd like to look back and say that DA 2 felt like a glorified expansion pack when all is said and done, not that it was a sign of things yet to come...here's to hoping.

[DrunkDave89]

Nice review. I too liked how they tied the death of your mother into an earlier quest that I had more or less figured to be a one-off thing. When I found out that someone had sent my mother white lilies, i felt actual dread. I am also prepared to wait a couple of years for the next one. I have no doubt they'll crank out some DLC for this to tide us over. Compare how long ago TES IV: Oblivion was released, and only recently they've announced TES V: Skyrim. Bethesda really takes their time on games, and though their narrative is inferior to Bioware games, in my opinion, nobody has ever accused them of being too small or short.

[Mercenar1ee]

I expect no reply from anyone at Bioware with what i have to say.. BUT i just don't see why they couldn't continue with some of the unanswered storyline in DAO, Morrigan and Flemeth for instance, did you guys feel that such a good storyline shouldn't be wasted in a mediocre one? also the Gray Warden mentions that hes leaving to deal with something more dangerous..

[DrunkDave89]

Merc. It's pretty clear that they're setting up for a trilogy. Since flemeth made a somewhat unexpected return from the dead, it's only natural that she's going to be a part of it. It's too bad that morrigan's little devil-child is only an option, and not locked into the story's canon hard and fast, because that's pretty ripe for story.

[ReavousX]

Mercenar1ee wrote...

I expect no reply from anyone at Bioware with what i have to say.. BUT i just don't see why they couldn't continue with some of the unanswered storyline in DAO, Morrigan and Flemeth for instance, did you guys feel that such a good storyline shouldn't be wasted in a mediocre one? also the Gray Warden mentions that hes leaving to deal with something more dangerous..

I suspect there's a grand scheme going on, that will take us all across the world of Dragon Age, and ultimately involve a great deal of what we've seen and learned through our time playing.  Whether that be a Hawke/Hero team, or Morrigan's God child changing the world...we don't know, but surely there's a direction the Bioware team is going in that we don't fully understand yet.  

Also, Flemeth actually played a very key role in Dragon Age 2, although she wasn't a constant presence.  She's a very precise woman, wether she is "enlightened" or just savvy, she knows what's up.  She was the mastermind behind Morrigan conceiving a child that would take in the soul of an old god.  She knew Morrigan would betray her, and kill her.  I'm not convinced she just came across Hawke...she knew he was destined to play a key role in what became the beginning of a revolution, for better or worse.  I'd certainly like some answers though.

[TacticianDean]

Okay this is the first time I've EVER posted but this was just ridiculous. I loved DA:O and I loved KOTOR 1&2, but this thing isn't anything more than a glorified prologue. This game should have never made it to the stores. Don't get me wrong I liked the combat and the actual story(which took what, like an hour) and I even liked the characters(Anders made no sense funny-man to terrorist?) but they butchered everything else. The very worst part of all was that they to out almost every bit of depth that the companions provided.  I hope they try to fix some issues with the DLC's and think long and hard about what their loyal fans want not a bunch of gamers who only want new ways to kill.  RPG makers keep making games "better" and are forgetting what made people love the genre so much.

Modifié par TacticianDean, 13 mars 2011 - 12:24 .

[nevermind087]

Although it seems I think less of the final product than you do, you make some interesting points. I do, however, disagree with you in regard to the quality of Act 3. My main gripe with the conclusion is that the designers spent the entire game building up this interesting, morally ambiguous debate between the templar and mage factions only to seemingly come down on the side of the mages through Meredith's idol-provoked insanity. Now, throughout the entire game I was rather disdainful towards the templars' seemingly xenophobic response to the problem of magic, but I can't say that I appreciated having the debate settled in that sort of way. Although I suppose you could arrive at the same conclusions Meredith did in a more rational manner, it still felt like a dismissive gesture towards the templar side of the argument.

I agree with you though, with a few more years added on to the development cycle, Dragon Age III has the potential to be excellent.

[Kinkaku]

I agree as well, this game did feel like a glorified expansion for the next major game and I do hope they take there

time with DA3. I'm in no hurry for it.

Modifié par Kinkaku, 13 mars 2011 - 01:10 .

[Chuvvy]

The game felt incomplete it seems like they cut out act 4 so they could sell it as DLC or an expansion.

[Crimsoneer]

I agree entirely that the ending to the Templar/Mage debate was completely spoilt by a) the ridiculous overuse of bloody magic b)the idol

Sorry, but every mage and his dog turn to blood magic at the slightest sign of Templars - Orsino turned into a monster without ANY TEMPLARS BEING AROUND AT ALL - and the Templar lady is insane. Well, that settles it.

[ReavousX]

nevermind087 wrote...

Although it seems I think less of the final product than you do, you make some interesting points. I do, however, disagree with you in regard to the quality of Act 3. My main gripe with the conclusion is that the designers spent the entire game building up this interesting, morally ambiguous debate between the templar and mage factions only to seemingly come down on the side of the mages through Meredith's idol-provoked insanity. Now, throughout the entire game I was rather disdainful towards the templars' seemingly xenophobic response to the problem of magic, but I can't say that I appreciated having the debate settled in that sort of way. Although I suppose you could arrive at the same conclusions Meredith did in a more rational manner, it still felt like a dismissive gesture towards the templar side of the argument.

I agree with you though, with a few more years added on to the development cycle, Dragon Age III has the potential to be excellent.

What really buged me was how by Act 3, they finally have you hooked (it wasn't until you could really FEEL where the game was going with the Qunari in Act 2 that I got into the game) and it turns into a complete train wreck.  Not that train wrecks are bad, sometimes having things build up only to come crumbling down is a real shock, and plays well into the story.  In this case though, the ending came rapidly, and left me feeling that regardless of my character's actions, it didn't really matter.  I might feel better if Orsino had actually been pushed to the edge, and THEN resorted to blood magic.  

Imagine this.  Hawke and Co. battle templars with Orsino, you battle hordes of Templars, and those who may have betrayed you prior to the battle.  Have a pack of circle mages battle alongside you, make it FEEL epic.  This is a game, not a movie.  Let us DO the battle, don't show us.  Cutscene, the circle mages lie dead, your crew is exhausted.  Meredith approaches Orsino, blade drawn, and he finally panics, becoming a harvester.  Hawke and team battle the harvester, killing it.  Then, have Meredith insist on killing Hawke, then proceed to what happened in the final battle.  This could all take place in the gallows, it's wide open, there's positions to take the higher ground...it looks like it was MADE for the battle I described.  Sure, it doesn't change the fact that we're left with what ultimately feels like a glorified prologue, but at least the climax is...more climactic.  

Also, you're right that in the end the templars get the short end of the stick, since Meredith can be dismissed as a loon.  A "number 2" sort of character that remained adamant that the Mages are ultimately in the wrong, despite Meredith's idol-driven hate, would have worked well.  This character also could have served as the figurehead for what will surely be the wide spread Mage vs. Templar battle in DLC or future games.  He/She could also be the one to banish Hawke and crew from Kirkwall, allowing us to at least get a glimpse of what happens post-battle.

[Shadowrun1177]

@ ReavousX honestly for me by Act 3 I was totally detached from the game and story not pulled into it. The unstoppable removal of Hawke's second sibling by death or other things to the unstoppable killing of Hawke's mother just made me feel powerless not some hero or champion. When Act 3 finally rolled around it just seemed to confirm everything that this whole game is just about making Hawke suffer at least that's how I felt. I really don't see how anyone would of stayed in Kirkwall after everything that happened to Hawke I would of just sold my stuff a left before it all blew up.

[voosho]

Well the game is good and it is made for future DLC's iam sure about that i just played trough a second time and i got bored now, i will parhaps play it again if there will be any major dlcs in the near future

The last lines before the games ends they say He's Gone! Like the warden, that cant be an coincidence or somthing like that It would be nice if the thirdgame actully brings the hero of the blight and the champion together, would be awsome. But i hope they will put a longer time in the next game.

Well well iam looking forward to the DLC's and i dont think the game sold to few copies iam pretty sure about a third game. but hey i was pretty sure about a third kotor game to, no the mmo dont count.

[BiowarEA]

Let's recap:

Varric has a "companion quest" which starts your journey and ends it as well. Basically, in the beginning (Deep Roads mission) his brother takes a cursed idol and traps you all in the ruins. That idol ****s up his (betrayer brother) mind. Later in-game you finally find the betrayer and help/kill him but there is no sign of idol (betrayer tells your companion that he destroyed it).

In the end, rather abruptly, you have this Merid.. meridit.. whatever, lunatic Templar who suddenly reveals her super-secret-awesome-manga weapon. A glowing red sword she got made from the remains of the idol she bought from the betrayer dwarf. Over the years, the idol drove her crazy as well and there are hints (if you bother talking with that one templar every now and then in front of Chantry) and rumors of her going mad slowly.

That's how it's revealed at the last boss fight. I don't know whether Gaider and co were expecting us to be shocked or vomit at the stupidity of the whole moment.

Modifié par BiowarEA, 13 mars 2011 - 11:24 .

[Bryy_Miller]

ReavousX wrote...

Ah, now to the "and Beyond" part of the thread.  We know that the Hero of Fereldan made a trip back to Denerim, and has since gone missing, as well as Hawke.  I urge Bioware to tread carefully, because this can lead to some expectations that will end in disappointment.  One of the first thought's of course, is that Hawke and Hero will end up working together towards a common goal.  Then, I can't help but feel that this would be disasterous.  Look at how poorly info transferred from Origins save files into DA 2, now imagine a new game, that not only featured your past deeds in Fereldan, but Hawke's choices from Kirkwall.  That would be...tough, to say the least.  Not to mention the task of two main characters in one story, we'd likely be left bouncing back and forth between the two main characters, with a mix and match of companions from both games.  That doesn't sound bad, come to think of it.  

Of course, nothing may come of this at all.  We know there's "trouble in Orlais", and DLC coming to DA 2 that may or may not take place after the battle at Kirkwall.  I'm excited to see what direction Bioware takes.

I'm pretty sure an expansion would have to take place after the battle, otherwise feel cheap and easy. But DLC, I'm sure, will be additional quests within the game's arc.

[chastain101]

The inevitable death of Hawke's mother killed me, I went for a second replay seeing if I could possibly prevent it but no, she dies no matter what course of action you may take. The Champion's armor is in my opinion the most epic looking armor yet (for a mage). I am still undecided on which game I prefer. Origins seemed more... complete (especially the companions), but I like the main character more in DA2. Now I lie in wait for the Expansion pack that will hopefully tell me what the f$&k happened after the "epic" ending of the story.

[Kenshen]

Crimsoneer wrote...

I agree entirely that the ending to the Templar/Mage debate was completely spoilt by a) the ridiculous overuse of bloody magic b)the idol

Sorry, but every mage and his dog turn to blood magic at the slightest sign of Templars - Orsino turned into a monster without ANY TEMPLARS BEING AROUND AT ALL - and the Templar lady is insane. Well, that settles it.

My theory about this is the mages were being affected by the idol as well.  A small piece of it had an entire estate haunted so what would a 2h sword made of it do.  As for the ending what it showed to me is no matter what we did or wanted to do it didn't matter.  The hatred built up between the two factions had reached a point that couldn't be stopped and thanks to Anders we got to see.

Now my only gripe is that even though we find out the idol has some bad mojo we really never go back to it except for the haunted house.  I wanted to learn more about it since it is the catalyst that begins the end.

[TacticianDean]

They kept saying that things would be less complicated but I miss it. I use to read all the item descriptions, codex entries, and anything else I could to learn a little more about the world around me. In this game it seems to me that we're in a world that just happens to share some names.

[bablefisk]

Ah, now to the "and Beyond" part of the thread. We know that the Hero of Fereldan made a trip back to Denerim, and has since gone missing, as well as Hawke. I urge Bioware to tread carefully, because this can lead to some expectations that will end in disappointment.

Same thing happened in the kotor franchise (although bioware did not make the second game), and so yeh, expect a MMO dragon age in a few years time ;'(

[Layn]

DrunkDave89 wrote...

Nice review. I too liked how they tied the death of your mother into an earlier quest that I had more or less figured to be a one-off thing. When I found out that someone had sent my mother white lilies, i felt actual dread.

oh god, when i heard about the white lilies i was in shock. i stopped every quest and focused on that, hoping it wasn't on a timer or something, that i'd somehow get there in time, and when i understood that he had already killed her, i just wanted Hawke to punch him to death (light-hearted and good natured mage btw.). And i let Hawke doubt and blame herself, because she had almost found him years before, if only she had looked for a trap door.

[angryjellyfish]

I don't understand how the chantary can be seeking the warden. He's dead in mine... wtf bioware

[AnotherAD]

angryjellyfish wrote...

I don't understand how the chantary can be seeking the warden. He's dead in mine... wtf bioware

Well I wouldnt say it would be your Warden.

Because everything else early on in the game is "Hero of Felerden" I think Howe calls him/her "Warden Commander".  In the end it is stated, "the warden"

Another thing is why would the Warden even involve himself in Politics when it failed before, even in Act 2 Wardens have something better to do than stop the Big Horns from killing innocents.

Modifié par AnotherAD, 14 mars 2011 - 02:36 .

[Bryy_Miller]

They say the Warden is gone. That can mean any number of things.

[angryjellyfish]

different warden?? doubt that.

Modifié par angryjellyfish, 15 mars 2011 - 09:49 .

[ReavousX]

angryjellyfish wrote...

different warden?? doubt that.

He means the warden commander you would have used in Awakening, I suppose.  That wouldn't be as interesting as it being the Hero of Fereldan (of course it is), but it would be an easy way around those who made the sacrifice.