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[Savvy30039]

Spoilers galore. Seriously, don't read if you haven't beaten the game. It's a long post anyway.

Let's be honest, straight female players have gotten the short end of the stick in terms of romances in past games. Not only do we always get exactly one choice, but it's often a character that is much reviled by the rest of the comunity, even though I've personaly loved them all. Yes, even Anomen.

With Dragon Age, that all changed. Not only do we get two guys to chose from, butwe get Alistair, who has got to be the greatest character in the universe ever. He's handy in a fight, everything he says is comedy gold, and his personal conversations are so silly and sweet that it makes for one heck of a romance. Honestly, how could I not be hooked to the guy after the "licked a lampost in winter" conversation. Poor Zev never even had a chance. But after the game had me truly attached with all sorts of heartwarming scenes, it decides to make me really fight for it.

First Alistair confeses his love by saying how I was the first woman he's spent the night with, and he'd like me to be the last. Aww that's so sweet. What's this? I have the option to ask where things are going with us? All right then. Oh, we might not have a future together after all. Well that fluffy feeling was short lived.

Then the first decision problem I had was after I rescued Queen Anora. The compromise option that would garantee peace was to have her and Alistair marry, and I had gone through the whole game trying to find the best outcome to all the situations, so I actually had to think about this one. But I'm no self-sacrificing jedi in this game. I'm a pampered noble whose not willing to throw away her future after already so much of the past was lost. So I steer clear of the marriage option, and continue on with the game to the Landsmeet.

The Wardens win, things are looking good, and I eventually take Loghain down. I'm all for letting him be Wardenized, but Alistair is having none of that, so I back down after he declares himself king and let him do the dirty deed for himself. Cut to Eamons's estate, Alistar makes his entrance, and promptly crushes my heart out of a sense of duty to the crown. Time to reload!

This time I don't back down for Loghains's surrender, and side with Anora so that Alistair won't be king. But apparently, this leads to me crushing his heart. He expresses dissapointment at my betrayal, and leaves the game forever. At this point the game has me thinking there's no way I get to keep my romance with Alistair alive. Though outside influences already had me feeling down, I literally shed a tear at the fate of my poor Gray Warden and cursed the day I became I Bioware fan. So deciding that being the lonesome hero who fell in love with a king was to be my character's story, I reloaded again and cut right to the chase, not even bothering to campaign for Loghain's life.

What's this? They want me to decide who gets to rule after a calm, civilized discussion? And I get to chose to have Alistair be king and have me as his queen? And he's totally cool with it? SCORE!

So it's time to go to bed, and I'm cautiosly optimistic about the third Gray Warden sticking around for the final battle. Then Morrigan shows up and demands to jump Alistair's bones. Aaaarg! Why is everyone out to destroy this once easy-going and joyful relationship? Forget it, Morrigan can go die in a fire, I'm off to fight the final battle.

Of course, hours of battle later I see the senior Warden fall to his death, and know that either Alistair or I must die. So our relationship is doomed after all. Sigh... Ready to get this show on the road, I simply accept that I'll make the killing blow, and die for the new king. But I never even get the chance. Because of my relationship with Alistair, he's already determined that I should be the one that lives and takes out the archdemon before I can. I definitely wasn't cheering along with everyone else in the epilogue, and left Ferelden to go hang out on a boat with Sten and Zevran.

Of course, there's always the Morrigan option. Determined to find a good ending for my characterI steel myself to do the final battle again, and accept the witch's offer and the bad tase in my mouth with it. After this utterly painful decision, the game apparently decides that I should watch, romantic music and all. Hooray for the skip option. Eventually, after hours of saving and reloading, I find the happy ending I seek, and vow to stick with Zevran next time.

The thing is, all these choices would not have nearly the same impact if Alistair's character wasn't so endearing. If he had been a little more bland, and a little less interesting, I could have easily pawned him off on both Anora and Morrigan without really having to think about it. But because the game had me so deeply involved, and not in the relationship aspect alone, these decisions had me seriously contemplating what I should do. I don't think I've ever had so much of a personal investment in the outcome of the game, and am amazed at how deeply it effected me. So thank you Bioware, I both love you and hate you for making me care about your characters so much.

[David Gaider]

Miashi wrote...
To people trying to rationalize Alistair's choices?... Come on. You spend what, a couple of months with him at most through your gametime? That's far too little to pretend saying that you know Alistair inside and out.

Yes, there is an element of denial combined with wishful thinking at work, there. Which is maybe understandable, so long as denial doesn't turn into delusion, you know?

Personally I don't think Alistair would let Loghain go. He swore that Loghain would die for what he did, and while there are many things that Alistair can be talked out of, things that he sees as his duty or promises he's made are not those things. I don't really mind if someone wishes to make a mod and pretend that Alistair would do that, if they really really must have their happy romantic ending prancing off into the sunset and nothing else in the game is important to them, but it *is* pretend. So long as you're okay with that, so am I.

As for Riordan, this has been discussed elsewhere. He didn't know that Alistair and the PC weren't aware of the Archdemon Solution (not realizing that they were both new recruits, perhaps). Even if he did, there's also no way that Riordan could have realized that the showdown with the Archdemon would come before the Orlesian Grey Wardens could be brought to Ferelden. His suggestion that more Grey Wardens might be useful is just that.

Just because YOU guys know now in meta-gamey fashion that making Loghain a Grey Warden is the more convenient way for the romance plot to go your way doesn't mean that Riordan or Alistair know that. Frankly, even if Alistair DID know I'm not sure that he would believe giving Loghain that honor -- remember, he considers being a Grey Warden and making their sacrifice an honor -- to be a good thing.

But there you go. I'll leave it at that.

Modifié par David Gaider, 18 novembre 2009 - 04:21 .

[David Gaider]

Walina wrote...

I found it strange that it will be hard to convince Alistair to let Loghain die at his place, why ?
1) You can convince him to become king when he doesn't want to
2) You can convince him to sleep with Morrigan
3) You can ask him to join a threesome
4) You can convince him to let Zevran on the team
5) You can kill Isolde or anyone you and he will remain at your side (till he had enough though)

Come on, tell me why should it be harder to ask him let go of Loghain when you just manipulated him earlier ? ^^ Unless, he care more about revenge than the PC ? It will be so unlike him in my opinion

Then apparently you don't know him very well.

You can convince him to become King because him not wanting to be a King is based entirely on his self-esteem. He doesn't think he would be a good King. He doesn't think anyone would want him there. Is it surprising that someone he loves telling him he should be King after all might be something he'd consider?

You can convince him to sleep with Morrigan. Yes, but this has nothing to do with contravening his duty. He has no duty to NOT sleep with Morrigan. He never promised not to give her a baby, and while he doesn't like her she's never DONE anything to him. Chances are, even if you bring up the baby he'll only agree if he knows the ritual will save your life. Or SOMEONE'S life. He's not even concerned about his own.

You can convince him to join a threesome. Again, he's not celibate, or even a prude really. Twisting someone's rubber arm is not exactly a giant leap for his character.

You can convince him to let Zevran join the team. And why couldn't you? Zevran attacked you all, yes, but he didn't kill anyone in the party. If Zevran had, do you think Alistair would have been so eager? Hardly. He doesn't trust Zevran, but it's not as if Zevran killed Duncan or any of his friends.

He will remain at your side after killing Isolde or Connor, yes, but keep in mind the difference here: at some level he feels he owes Arl Eamon and is angry about being directly (or indirectly) responsible for the death of his wife or son -- but their deaths break no promise of his. It's not as if he didn't know something needed to be done in Redcliffe, he's simply very upset how it went down.

With Loghain, however, it's a different matter. He swore that the man would die. Loghain is responsible for the death of Duncan and all his friends in the Grey Wardens. He thinks the man is evil, and if anything his DUTY would be to keep him OUT of the Grey Wardens.

You think Alistair could be convinced because you want to think that. Alistair isn't spineless, but you're arguing that he is and should bend to your every whim because-- why? Because you're selfish? I get the desire behind it, but let's not mistake one thing for the other. Anyone saying they "know Alistair" and believe he would actually do such a thing is ignoring one of the most important things about him.

If you really want to change Alistair into someone else because that makes it more convenient to have your happy ending, I get it and I understand. But I know my character.

[David Gaider]

Yorleen wrote...
On the one hand he acts romantic, and he even wants to wait before "going inside the tent" with the PC to be sure of his feelings even though she offers it... and on the other hand, eventually, a threesome with one complete "stranger" would be completely ok? Sorry but it seems quite contradictory to me.

My point is that he's not necessarily *opposed* to it. It's strange, sure, but it's not as if it's impossible to convince someone to do something that's simply outside of their box (and maybe possibly a little interesting). Accepting Loghain into the Grey Wardens and giving up his sworn revenge isn't outside of his box -- it's beyond the pale. Two completely different things.

And for LdyShayna: the term "twist my rubber arm" is not a euphamism. It's an idiom meaning "you don't need to do much convincing to get me to do something I'm inclined to do anyhow".

[David Gaider]

Sc4Freak wrote...

Heck this is complicated. It seems that options for a happy ending are rather limited - and you have to make the exact correct choices.

I made a flowchart of choices which lead to happy/bad endings as I understand it. I don't know if it's completely accurate or not - anybody here want to chime in?

http://img197.images...geflowchart.png

Not quite. There is an additional variable regarding whether or not Alistair's views have been "hardened" by the player after his encounter with his sister. There's probably more variation, as well, though Mary could probably tell you better than I.