294 réponses à ce sujet

[Yorleen]

From what I read Bioware will most probably need to make a patch to fix some issues at the end of the game... Maybe this could be an opportunity of some sort... Could be interesting to have a place to gather ideas about various possibilities for additional endings(s) in which we may try to have Bioware interested, would they be willing to do a few additions...?

[Yorleen]

Isaantia wrote...
I would totally mod this if I wasn't working and schooling full-time. Your PC has SO much influence over him, you should be able to talk some reason into him. Maybe it takes some work to calm him down, but if you can put Anora in the tower, you should be able to stick Loghain there too.

I do think it should be a long enough dialog, most probably not totally pleasant neither to Alistair nor the PC... It should depend both on the relationship level and on persuasive skills but also on a good choice of answers...

In the end, after reading/thinking about it for several days, it sounds maybe like the option the most likely to fit easily enough in game, without distorting the world settings nor Alistair's character?

[Yorleen]

In another thread, someone wrote that Morrigan would not only place the archdemon's soul in the future baby but also redeem it (as it used to be an old gone)... Is this accurate?



If so, as the ritual needs a Grey Warden, wouldn't it be possible that this ritual be carried on two Grey Wardens, naming the PC and Alistair?

[Isaantia]

Yorleen wrote...

In another thread, someone wrote that Morrigan would not only place the archdemon's soul in the future baby but also redeem it (as it used to be an old gone)... Is this accurate?

If so, as the ritual needs a Grey Warden, wouldn't it be possible that this ritual be carried on two Grey Wardens, naming the PC and Alistair?

Morrigan tells the PC if she asks enough questions that yes, the soul of the old god will be reborn outside of the taint, so redeemed in a sense. But, Morrigan clearly wants this for some other purpose outside of altruism. I don't think she'd allow my PC to have the child.

[Yorleen]

Thanks for clearing this up! I was also thinking that if Bioware's going to want to use this child in DA2, it should most probably be her own...



Ah then, I still feel Alistair accepting Laughain's "use" would be the easiest scenario to add... Bioware would have to add a dialogue and voice acting but that's all, since Loghain can already sacrify himself or impregnate Morrigan... The second solution lets him alive though, but I suppose a remedy can be find for this, lol.

[Darkest Dreamer]

Great read Savvy, I sympathise with much of what your character went through.



Personally, I had my character tell Alistair he had to stay and guard the gate because of... some feeble task she could dream up. It was a romance doomed to fail and I'm sure my charrie likely felt disheartened as she said her last goodbyes before venturing with Sten and Wynne into the thick of battle, her heart heavy even as the soldiers cheered for her.



It actually made the ending that much more satisfying to see all that they went through for love, all the hurdles they had to overcome, only to be suddenly denied in those final moments. It brought up feelings I thought only books and movies could summon.

[Savvy30039]

Indeed the game is dark fantasy, but Alistair was always my ray of sunshine (corny I know). My family died, I have a short lifespan, and I basically can't have kids. There's no way I'd let Alistair walk out on me as well. He wants to dump me when he becomes king because I didn't "harden" him when we visited his sister? Then I punch him out, tie him up, take him to a bedroom, and "harden" him there (tee hee).

What I love about the game is that it gives you options. There are many obstacles to get through and a lot of difficult decisions to get your happy ending, but it's not impossible. That's one of the things that annoyed me the most about Bishop in NWN2. It was totally reasonable to expect the main character to single handedly kill an ancient god, but to convince a surly man to accept some free lovin' from a beautiful woman? WOAH no way, too unrealistic.

I was at first frustrated that Alistair's jaunty romance took a turn towards near impossible to maintain, but I have to give props to Bioware to make me want to overcome those hardships instead of just shrug and give up. They dangled this totally awesome character in front of me, and then made me work to keep him. It's infinitely better than the set in stone outcome the men get with Morrigan's romance.

[Lianaar]

Bishop was not an official mod, but made by a fan if I recall correctly. In the mod you can convince the man to actually fight on your side.

[Ariella]

imported_beer wrote...

The man or woman who makes a mod to alter the Alistair romance path such that pc's who loveth him do not have to WATCH him copulate with Morrigan or DIE...will be treated like a GOD for as long as these forums shall exist.

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So anyone who wants the ever lasting worship of a bunch of wimmins should get crackin' on that one. Just sayin'. Or maybe Bioware will take pity and at least make it so that we don't have to see the Morrigan climbing over Alistair cutscene. Sheesh.

Uhym, maybe this is where I should be glad that I have the Xbox version right now, I just hit x to skip over the scene...

Anyway, I don't get this... But then I liked Morrigan, and she and I had a good relationship from the beginning. When I spoke with her, it sounded to me, that as much as she wanted to preserve the soul of an Old God (and the way she was talking about it almost sounded noble in a strange way) she wanted to save my life too and keep me from being miserable for the rest of it. That was what really cinched it for me, when she offered,

[Yorleen]

They both know the taint will have them one day, but maybe because of this they could make the most of days spent together after fighting the Blight... I believe they would cherish every day and every year maybe even more... I wish someone from Bioware will read our talks about the endings and maybe consider adding the "using" Loghain option with Alistair (forced) consent. There have been already and will be many tragic events in the PC's and Alistair's life so please, let them have some years of happiness and let Loghain finish the dirty job.

[Ultramongoose]

Mummolus wrote...

Yes. Straight female gamers get the short end of the stick. Pardon me while I and many gay male gamers play the sad violin for you.

Homosexuals make up something like 10% of the population, why do they insist on getting at least 50% of the attention?

Sigh.

While a lot of gay males demand attention and rights and allsorts, there are many who are very quiet, humble people who will simply live their lives instead of strutting about the place making it obvious. I don't think the post you quoted had that tone to it, and I think all the guy was trying to say was that it's not often (in fact, it's hardly ever, if not never) that you see gay romances in RPGs. I really appreciate what Bioware has done with this aspect of the game and, while I know a lot of people don't like it, it's really nice to be able to play the exact character you want to play. It's like there's no restrictions, which is great.

Except that a male character can't get jiggy with Alistair. I mean come on, Bioware! He really is the best character I've ever encountered in a game. Isn't it sad that he doesn't actually exist somewhere? 

This may have been somewhat of a derailment as I haven't bothered to read the last 6 pages but oh well.

Modifié par Ultramongoose, 17 novembre 2009 - 01:02 .

[Walina]

Why do we have to go through it ?
Only we, female players as a bad ending because our favorite character has to sleep with another woman who can be your best friend.

My point is, why male players got a better feeling about the ending than us ?
It's unfair!
Most of the guys did go out with Morrigan so didn't had to cheatn their lover.
Why the heck do we have to go through it ??
Just because to open a door to DAO 2?
Oh great!Then please next timeBioware tell us this before hand please!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now about the life span of our Grey Wardens :

1 - Why can't we use the Saint graal to purify their blood ? It cured Iarl Eamon, you remember ?
2 - Anyone on this earth would like to find a cure, why not our grey warden ?
3 - Lot of people will prefer to have to live 30 years than dying the next day, our heroes deserve to be happy.

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Now about Alistair dumping us :

1 - Why the hell will he back up his words only because you're not noble ? Do you find it logical ?
Anyone who made their PC dating him know that Alistair is not a liar and he is honest.
Yes, everybody think he is a chicken because he is not leading the adventure but it's only because he would've been the hero, so no point of creating a new character in my opinion.

So it's really not him to dump us because of our origin, that's just an excuse from the writers who hate girls. The proof is even if he doesn't become king he still have to sleep with Morrigan if we don' want to die or him ~_~

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About Alistair background :

1 - Alistair is really the son of a housekeeper ?
There are a few testemonies about DA books but I did read 2 of them and in one of them, Alistair might me the son of a Grey warden and the King Maric! If it's true Alister should be imune to the Bligh if he was born after the woman became a grey warden so he should not die by the archedmon.

2 - Can grey wardens really can't have children ?
Only Alistair tell us that we shouldn't not can't have babies because our blood is spoiled.
But what about the Grey warden Sophia in the Soldier peak ? She did have some children but was it before or after becoming a grey warden ? If we follow DAO story, it's prolly before, but who knows ?

Again, I didn't read the books so I can't confirm those testemonies.

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About Morrigan ritual :

1 - Morrigan do really need to be the one to make the ritual ?
Sincerely I doubt about it and if you do her personal quest there are some hints that Morrigan will soon leave your side and I think they knew from the begingin about the ritual.

If Morrigan really cared about being your friend she should had let know the truth and let you have the baby but again it's an excuse for DAO 2 so we're F!cked as female players.

[Isaantia]

imported_beer wrote...

I believe Morrigan offers because she cares for your life. But she doesn't like Alistair and he doesn't like her in the game.  Your only chance at togetherness comes by forcing a man to do something he loathes and goes against his nature. Or you could *try* to sacrifice yourself by subterfuge because if you take him along- he will naturally butt in.

Epic Cousland.. Her life...was pretty dismal.

I don't think Morrigan really cares about my PC's life. Her whole purpose was this agenda - to get this old god soul demonspawn. Its a business deal really. She even says this to you, "why do you think Flemmeth saved you? this is why."

What would have been an interesting twist to this story - if you slept with Alistair, perhaps he got you pregnant. Then your baby would have the old god's soul and neither of you would die. And Morrigan would be miffed and leave. lol. If the span of the story is only a year, maybe 2, then there still is a good possibility for pregnancy. Fiona got pregnant after all. Then they would also have an heir, who happens to be an old god .

Ironically, at the end of Kotor, I was mad that Revan did not die. I wrote a fanfic ending that had her die destroying the starforge.

In some  ways this is a better ending than what the guys get. Sure a male noble can marry Anora, but they didn't travel with her and romance her. Morrigan will leave no matter what they choose.

[The Angry One]

Isaantia wrote...

Ironically, at the end of Kotor, I was mad that Revan did not die. I wrote a fanfic ending that had her die destroying the starforge.

Are you aware of KotOR's cut ending? Basically what you describe.

www.youtube.com/watch

[Mummolus]

I don't think the post you quoted had that tone to it, and I think all the guy was trying to say was that it's not often (in fact, it's hardly ever, if not never) that you see gay romances in RPGs. I really appreciate what Bioware has done with this aspect of the game and, while I know a lot of people don't like it, it's really nice to be able to play the exact character you want to play.

The post I quoted ignored the intent of the topic poster in favor of attacking one minor aspect of their post, I think it had exactly 'that tone' to it.



As for how often you see gay romances in RPG's... Well, Mass Effect and Jade Empire (both by Bioware) both featured gay and lesbian romances, and Fable and Fable II did as well. In fact I'd be willing to bet there are a lot of RPG's which feature same-sex relationships or at least characters.



Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining about that. I couldn't care less about optional romances within games - if they're around I might partake of them, but if they're not I don't miss it. If there are gay options, wonderful - again, I'm not bothered. What bothers me is that the trend in the last few years has been to add an increasing number of such things to games and still we have posts like the one I quoted, where homosexuals demand even more attention. The simple fact is that they represent about 10% of the population, and 50% of the in-game romances are meant to appeal to them; there's really no need to come into a random topic by someone expressing their gratitude to Bioware for including quality romances and attack them in such a manner.

[Devlen12]

Savvy30039 wrote...

Indeed the game is dark fantasy, but Alistair was always my ray of sunshine (corny I know). My family died, I have a short lifespan, and I basically can't have kids. There's no way I'd let Alistair walk out on me as well. He wants to dump me when he becomes king because I didn't "harden" him when we visited his sister? Then I punch him out, tie him up, take him to a bedroom, and "harden" him there (tee hee).

.... i approve this message
*Puts on his Alistair mask*

Modifié par Devlen12, 17 novembre 2009 - 01:42 .

[Karmitastrophe]

I pretty much agree with Lianaar with this. Alistair accepts the "crimes" you commit because they are crimes of necessity. Saving Loghain is not necessary. More importantly, none of those "crimes" come into direct conflict with his personal emotional past. Killing Conor (if you choose to do so, this IS completely avoidable) and sleeping with Morrigan may go against the grain of how he was raised, but they do not ask him to accept and therefore validate Loghain, the killer of the only man he ever felt a father-son relationship with. As it becomes blatantly evident in the game, he LOVED Duncan dearly, and Duncan filled a painful hole in his life for a short period, giving him purpose and meaning and escape from the Chantry, as well as becoming his father figure mentor, which he has lacked since birth and particularly since leaving Eamon's estate. Duncan was the only father which did not reject and abandon him. After all the interaction and dialogue throughout the game, it seems obvious to me that even while becoming a Grey Warden might be seen as a form of punishment ot others, to him it is not. The man he respected and loved most was a Grey Warden, and the Grey Wardens, in many ways, saved him by giving him something he can truly believe in and live for. He sees the position of Grey Warden as one laden with honor and duty--and to him, Loghain has betrayed both. If you are his lover, supposedly caring about him deeply and not wanting to hurt him, and knowing more intimately than anyone his relationship with Duncan and what the GWs mean to him, you could never accept Loghain into your ranks. Because even though you may see at as some sort of righteous vindication, Alistair does not and never will. It is the ultimate act of betrayal. As stated before, this is a dark fantasy, and GWs are doomed to live bittersweet lives from the start.

That being said, I don't necessarily see Morrigan's child as being evil, or her having intentions about making him so. Morrigan is not evil. She simply recognizes power, and places great value on magics that exist outside the realm of the Circle. She wants to save this magic and power, probably partially for selfish motives, but also out of what seems to me an unselfish desire to rescue the spirit of the Old God, who is not evil. I believe in the lore they talk about how the Old Gods aka dragons were actually cast into the golden city (heaven) by the Chantry b/c the Chantry were jealous of them, and the Tevinter Imperium's attempts to enter the city was not to 'usurp heaven', but to rescue the dragons from their gilded cage. Only this attempt somehow went horribly wrong, and ended up creating darkspawn Given the Chantry's record of trying to imprison powerful things it fears (ie mages), this seems like a pretty logical explanation.

But I digress. My point is, as an elf mage I chose to live with Alistair as leaders and resurrectors of the Grey Warden, giving the unwanted throne to Anora, and accepting Morrigan's solution as just another sacrifice we must make because we are Grey Wardens. I don't see how this has to ruin the relationship between the two of you--Alistair was never attracted to Morrigan, loved you pretty utterly and completely, and clearly desired no betrayal of your trust or love. You approach HIM with the offer, and he accepts at it as the only way to save your love. He never betrays you. I agree that the cutscene with him and Morrigan may be a little much, but you can skip it at least on the 360 version, and take comfort that he clearly takes no joy in it. In my mind, my characters lived as happily ever after as they could. They have tragic lives. That they find love at all, or a means to preserve it, is amazing enough. I prefer to think of my character as grateful for everything in her life.

Modifié par Karmitastrophe, 17 novembre 2009 - 02:42 .

[The Angry One]

Well Duncan is one of two men Alistair felt a father-son relationship with.

And Loghain tried to kill the other one too!



And people wonder why Alistair hates Loghain.

[Walina]

Cheating is cheating, whenever you are ok with it, you will still feel some regrets, which will hunt you all your life and always asking yourself "wasn't it another way?".



You're talking about how Alistair "loved" Duncan, then I am sorry but he also madly in love with your PC so it's not logical that he can't accept Loghain and prefer to cheat on your PC. Another proof that the writers wanted to have an excuse for DAO 2.



You choose to accept to be cornered by Bioware writers, then fine by you. I will never accept it because it's totally useless since there are many ways to resolve the problem with ritual or not. Lot of people are admitting that the end of the game became really linear cause you can't really choose to get ride of all the nobles who got their ass saved by you!

[Karmitastrophe]

People have different opinions on what is considered cheating. You are entitled to yours, I am entitled to mine. I don't think Alistair cheated, because cheating implies going behind someone's back. I also think that both Alistair and the PC will have much more horrifying scenes haunting them than that night. But, as I said before, I prefer to think of my character as grateful for even having a chance for happiness--the game is based on a lot of individual choice of the player, but also the ultimate reality that Grey Wardens are bound and tied by their fates. There is rarely "another way," no matter what path you choose there is going to be a lot of sacrifice and pain.



Also note, it's not like either characters know about Morrigan's plans at the Landsmeet. Nor do they know that one of them must die (sans the god child option) in order to kill the Archdemon. So when you present it as "he's choosing his past over the option of avoiding cheating on you" that's not accurate at all. At the landsmeet, all Alistair or you know is what Loghain has done, and that the final battle will be dangerous but not necessarily a death sentence. And so I think it is much more logical for Alistair to reject Loghain completely, and to view your acceptance of him as betrayal, for the reasons I stated previously.



I do not choose to be "cornered" by Bioware writers. They have given us immense choice in gameplay, more than most games I can think of. But the game is based on some basic premises, such as being a dark fantasy, and the characters are the characters--they were written and created by Bioware developers, and thus act in accordance with their own personalities (with both limitations and strengths).



I hope that the end of the game does exhibit some linear qualities, because if the endings are too disparate (which they already are quite different), the possibility of porting characters from DA1 to DA1 will be non-existent. I personally want to continue to play as my character, and be able to interact with Alistair in DA 2. Oh and I don't think the writer's needed an "excuse" to write DA2--its a great game, which deserves a sequel and yes, they wanted events which are necessarily unfinished, such as Morrigan's pregnancy, to be a part of DA:O so they can carry over into the next game, creating a flow between the two games. Do you not want a sequel? Because I'm pretty sure you'd be alone on that boat.

[Ultramongoose]

Mummolus wrote...

I don't think the post you quoted had that tone to it, and I think all the guy was trying to say was that it's not often (in fact, it's hardly ever, if not never) that you see gay romances in RPGs. I really appreciate what Bioware has done with this aspect of the game and, while I know a lot of people don't like it, it's really nice to be able to play the exact character you want to play.

The post I quoted ignored the intent of the topic poster in favor of attacking one minor aspect of their post, I think it had exactly 'that tone' to it.

As for how often you see gay romances in RPG's... Well, Mass Effect and Jade Empire (both by Bioware) both featured gay and lesbian romances, and Fable and Fable II did as well. In fact I'd be willing to bet there are a lot of RPG's which feature same-sex relationships or at least characters.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining about that. I couldn't care less about optional romances within games - if they're around I might partake of them, but if they're not I don't miss it. If there are gay options, wonderful - again, I'm not bothered. What bothers me is that the trend in the last few years has been to add an increasing number of such things to games and still we have posts like the one I quoted, where homosexuals demand even more attention. The simple fact is that they represent about 10% of the population, and 50% of the in-game romances are meant to appeal to them; there's really no need to come into a random topic by someone expressing their gratitude to Bioware for including quality romances and attack them in such a manner.

You're actually so right about all those recent games to be honest. Completely forgot about them...

Yeah I get exactly what you mean about  the 'gets it but still wants more' argument. I guess I'm just incredibly happy that they included it in this game -- for some reason I really didn't expect them to do so. I'm all for sitting back and allowing game developers to do what they want with romances in games, but this was just a great surprise.

[Antikristine]

Darkest Dreamer wrote...

Great read Savvy, I sympathise with much of what your character went through.

Personally, I had my character tell Alistair he had to stay and guard the gate because of... some feeble task she could dream up. It was a romance doomed to fail and I'm sure my charrie likely felt disheartened as she said her last goodbyes before venturing with Sten and Wynne into the thick of battle, her heart heavy even as the soldiers cheered for her.

It actually made the ending that much more satisfying to see all that they went through for love, all the hurdles they had to overcome, only to be suddenly denied in those final moments. It brought up feelings I thought only books and movies could summon.

This is the ending I have yet to check out for my character. I suspect it will be the best ending, although it's not really fair to leave Alistair unhappy for the rest of his life because you died. And if he marries Anora too.... well, that would certainly be a tragedy.

When Alistair doesn't let my romantically involved PC sacrifice herself, I think it's a slap in the face for different reasons. He shouldn't do that when he has a purpose in life by becoming king. And my character must suffer for the rest of her life because she knew she had two chances of saving him - either she could have ventured to the tower without  him, or she should have at least told him that there was another way out through Morrigan's ritual. I really felt bad for not even having told him about that

Just to see how the story could have ended, I replayed the ending after accepting Morrigan's offer. And that also made me feel sad, because of the bittersweetness of it all. As a human noble, my PC and Alistair got married, and when I talked to him in the throne room, the look on his face and the happiness in his voice just made me realize that maybe we should have let Morrigan have her way after all. There would always be 30 years time to track her down anyway to kill her and her spawn (or adopt the child). It also made me feel really bad that Morrigan told her how she always would consider me her friend before we went to slay the Archdemon (I had Morrigan's approval on 90).

As someone mentioned above, playing a female character and getting romantically involved with Alistair is just the perfect recipe for no real happy endings whatsoever.

Modifié par Antikristine, 17 novembre 2009 - 09:44 .