294 réponses à ce sujet

[Yorleen]

Having Loghain sacrifice himself and being seen as a hero by the people whereas he's quite the opposite would remind me a little of Angels & Demons (without giving any spoilers for those who didn't read the book or see the movie)... That would be quite bitter as well but I like the idea...



Alternatively, I like thinking that a mage PC could double-cross Morrigan and perform the ritual herself with Alistair, even if this means using something they both loath: blood magic (my PC refused to ever use this previously and just broke the decoction at Soldier's Peak)... I suppose the mother carrying the redeemed old god soul in her womb may have terrible nightmares from the god's memories and maybe secondary effects from the ritual... I also imagine that Morrigan may steal the baby once it's born and go on the run with it so that it joins some already possible endings...



See anyway, even if I'm not really happy with the existing endings, this game makes my imagination fly away... And it doesn't mean I'm not enjoying playing DA:O, I'm having a lot of fun actually, reminds me the good old BG times...

[Tielis]

Well, my Dalish girl led Alistair on for a bit just for a laugh, but as soon as she met the sexy elf, she decided to stomp on ol' Al's heart. When Alistair flew off the handle at her idea of wanting to allow Loghain to redeem himself, well, that whiny boy got the boot. And she and Zev went off wandering at the end, so she pretty much got back the life she lost.

I just wish Zevran's romance would not have been so obviously geared towards the gay male population. Yes, I know, he's wonderful when he turns you down, but you'd think he'd be a bit more romantic after that towards a female. Truly, I think Zev is the best companion for a female Dalish character, but I don't really believe that he was written convincingly enough to be a second romance choice for straight females.

But when a gay male is the lead writer, what can you do? (personal opinion only)

Modifié par Tielis, 18 novembre 2009 - 04:39 .

[Walina]

I found it strange that it will be hard to convince Alistair to let Loghain die at his place, why ?

1) You can convince him to become king when he doesn't want to

2) You can convince him to sleep with Morrigan

3) You can ask him to join a threesome

4) You can convince him to let Zevran on the team

5) You can kill Isolde or anyone you and he will remain at your side (till he had enough though)



Come on, tell me why should it be harder to ask him let go of Loghain when you just manipulated him earlier ? ^^ Unless, he care more about revenge than the PC ? It will be so unlike him in my opinion

[PinkShira]

Walina wrote...

I found it strange that it will be hard to convince Alistair to let Loghain die at his place, why ?
1) You can convince him to become king when he doesn't want to
2) You can convince him to sleep with Morrigan
3) You can ask him to join a threesome
4) You can convince him to let Zevran on the team
5) You can kill Isolde or anyone you and he will remain at your side (till he had enough though)

Come on, tell me why should it be harder to ask him let go of Loghain when you just manipulated him earlier ? ^^ Unless, he care more about revenge than the PC ? It will be so unlike him in my opinion

I agree!

[The Angry One]

He hates Morrigan because she's an evil witch, but Morrigan in the end has never done anything to him.

Loghain on the other hand killed his father-figure, poisoned his *other* father-figure, enabled a situation where his other father-figure's son is either killed or permanently traumatised, killed his entire adoptive family in the Grey Wardens, smeared their name and killed his half-brother.



I think that makes that a little harder to accept.

[LdyShayna]

imported_beer wrote...
Any way, I am done with discussing this. Just like I am done with sitting in Redcliffe, on an incomplete game.

Yeah.  I decided the character I was first playing would absolutely not take Morrigan's offer, and I just didn't want to see either of the other endings.  I guess for that one I'll have to write off that she left Alistair left in the middle of the night so he wouldn't follow to the Archdemon (perhaps leaving him a note), and sacrificed herself.  That's just not something I'm interested in actually PLAYING.  Yeah.  Perhaps that makes me a wuss.  I don't care.   I won't be finishing that game.

I've started a new game with a slightly different character, though, with slightly different attitudes, and trying to have her at least get to know Morrigan.  Then, hopefully, I will feel it more in character for her to take Morrigan's offer.

Otherwise, I suppose I can see AN ending to the game with one of the male characters I've started.  Heh.

[Walina]

The Angry One wrote...

He hates Morrigan because she's an evil witch, but Morrigan in the end has never done anything to him.
Loghain on the other hand killed his father-figure, poisoned his *other* father-figure, enabled a situation where his other father-figure's son is either killed or permanently traumatised, killed his entire adoptive family in the Grey Wardens, smeared their name and killed his half-brother.

I think that makes that a little harder to accept.

True but then Bioware have should put some dialog about this through all the game if Alistair really cared about vengance. Where did see you that ? So far I didn't but I am not at the Landmeet yet. If Alistair spoke about just at Landmeet then sorry writers should have brough it up earlier just like they did for Zévran in my opinion. Also, they should've avoided writing about how much Alistair love your PC and want to stay with her, etc...

If by any chance, writers will tell us : "see Alistair is more complicated than what you though and has more secrets in his heart" then I will shut up and make my PC break up with Alistair and go out with Zevran because I never though that Alistair will be the type to lie, dump and leave our PC like that, so I will prefer Zevran who can become loyal and honest.

[Savvy30039]

Walina wrote...
True but then Bioware have should put some dialog about this through all the game if Alistair really cared about vengance. Where did see you that ? So far I didn't but I am not at the Landmeet yet. If Alistair spoke about just at Landmeet then sorry writers should have brough it up earlier just like they did for Zévran in my opinion. Also, they should've avoided writing about how much Alistair love your PC and want to stay with her, etc...

If by any chance, writers will tell us : "see Alistair is more complicated than what you though and has more secrets in his heart" then I will shut up and make my PC break up with Alistair and go out with Zevran because I never though that Alistair will be the type to lie, dump and leave our PC like that, so I will prefer Zevran who can become loyal and honest.

Well it's not like Alistair is lying when he's saying he loves you and wants to be with your forever, but he also says he doesn't want to be king either. It's just that he's conflicted and everythiing comes to a head at the landsmeet, and it can end up forcing him to do a whole mess of things he doesn't want to do.
And I don't think he's particularly after revenge for Loghain, but he doesn't want to forgive him either. If he could be convinced that becoming a Gray Warden would be his death sentance rather than a heroic honor, I think he would be alright with it as long as justice is being done. SInce there is indeed a great deal of difference between justice and petty vengance, and Loghain has wronged a lot more people than just Alistair.

[MBirkhofer]

"I refuse to fight side by side with Loghain as brothers"

Uhm, its not side by side, or as brothers. its operation:Loghain shield.



Yeah, Alistar and Anora both act a bit spastic at the landsmeet.

[Yorleen]

MBirkhofer wrote...
"I refuse to fight side by side with Loghain as brothers"
Uhm, its not side by side, or as brothers. its operation:Loghain shield.

Yep, it's only practical, Loghain is being a tool... Well, not really a noble thing to do for our heroes but seeing things this way may help Alistair. It did in other circumptances... He wasn't really happy with Morrigan being with us basically and he asked me how I felt about it. From what I remember the answer is "I don't have to like her, she can be useful". Eventually my character started to somehow like her as she was touched by the story of the stolen mirror, but that's another story. Anyway, Alistair agreed with this... Roughly the same went with Zevran joining...

[MBirkhofer]

Yorleen wrote...

MBirkhofer wrote...
"I refuse to fight side by side with Loghain as brothers"
Uhm, its not side by side, or as brothers. its operation:Loghain shield.

Yep, it's only practical, Loghain is being a tool... Well, not really a noble thing to do for our heroes but seeing things this way may help Alistair. It did in other circumptances... He wasn't really happy with Morrigan being with us basically and he asked me how I felt about it. From what I remember the answer is "I don't have to like her, she can be useful". Eventually my character started to somehow like her as she was touched by the story of the stolen mirror, but that's another story. Anyway, Alistair agreed with this... Roughly the same went with Zevran joining...

also he starts crying, and complains that you are having the discussion in front of all the nobles.  Really, perhaps he should have said something about the fact I would consider not killing him outright, when I talked Ser Cautherine down like 30seconds prior by saying, I would consider not killing him outright.

The whole dialogue feels a bit out of the blue, and forced.  havning an option to spare him, and him be one of the npcs like the First Enchanter and Eomon that spawnin the archdemon fight, would have been a nice option I'm inclined to think.

Also, Anora does it too.  The same dialogue chain, when Alistar freaks and says hes leaving forever, suddenly she appearently goes nuts and demands his head. wtf does that come from?  You know, when I supported you for queen 40seconds ago, I didn't know you were insane.

[Durallan]

David Gaider wrote...

Miashi wrote...
To people trying to rationalize Alistair's choices?... Come on. You spend what, a couple of months with him at most through your gametime? That's far too little to pretend saying that you know Alistair inside and out.

Yes, there is an element of denial combined with wishful thinking at work, there. Which is maybe understandable, so long as denial doesn't turn into delusion, you know?

Personally I don't think Alistair would let Loghain go. He swore that Loghain would die for what he did, and while there are many things that Alistair can be talked out of, things that he sees as his duty or promises he's made are not those things. I don't really mind if someone wishes to make a mod and pretend that Alistair would do that, if they really really must have their happy romantic ending prancing off into the sunset and nothing else in the game is important to them, but it *is* pretend. So long as you're okay with that, so am I.

As for Riordan, this has been discussed elsewhere. He didn't know that Alistair and the PC weren't aware of the Archdemon Solution (not realizing that they were both new recruits, perhaps). Even if he did, there's also no way that Riordan could have realized that the showdown with the Archdemon would come before the Orlesian Grey Wardens could be brought to Ferelden. His suggestion that more Grey Wardens might be useful is just that.

Just because YOU guys know now in meta-gamey fashion that making Loghain a Grey Warden is the more convenient way for the romance plot to go your way doesn't mean that Riordan or Alistair know that. Frankly, even if Alistair DID know I'm not sure that he would believe giving Loghain that honor -- remember, he considers being a Grey Warden and making their sacrifice an honor -- to be a good thing.

But there you go. I'll leave it at that.

not to seem like a smartass, but even if we wanted to make loghain a grey warden, we can't. As Riordain says if you ask him, what do you need for the joining? Darkspawn blood and ARCHdemon blood. Apparently some evil evil bathplug stole it from the grey wardens denerim vault, so even if we wanted we can't make anyone else a grey warden to sacrifice and taking loghain up to slay the archdemon and trying to make him a warden would probably take too long cause as soon as that archdemon dies, its spirit has to go into something.

my female eleven mage was utterly crushed that alistair decided to end it, after everything they went through just because some stupid humans wouldn't think an elf should go on the throne?

But then if you do the dark pact and you both live, your elf mage suddenly becomes the hero of ferelden, and then alistair asks what do you want? ANYTHING AT ALL AND I SHALL GRANT IT TO YOU. I just want to serve ferelden, nup, want titles and riches, nup, don't want anything bugger off, nup, I noticed a complete lack of, well now this elf is the hero of ferelden and humans are trying to bash down the palaces walls to get a look at her, hows about she wants to be the queen! but no. I now have to play through the entire landsmeet again just so alistair and my elf mage can live happily ever after, I could and probably should leave it as a sad tale of unrequited love, or tell alistair after he dumps my elf, she ain't gunna speak to him again.

On the Morrigan side, my male warrior also ended up being bitterly crushed by the witch he tried to turn good. He's gone looking for her... what will happen next? I think everyone agrees in that we all want to know! So Bioware, do nice expansions and not tiny crappy little dlc's so that everyone has to replay DAO an extra time just so they have done all this premium content,

anyway congratulations for breaking so many peoples hearts, few novels let alone movies, and I don't think theres been any computer games except for this one that have tangled with so many peoples emotions, bravo!

But Alas! I am still sad. I wanted my cake and I wanted to eat it too.

Modifié par Durallan, 18 novembre 2009 - 06:22 .

[Lianaar]

After walking through the dungeon of Loghain and seeing the people Loghain knowingly tortured....heck I can not see -myself- letting him live. How could Alistair do it?

Grey Wardens are so by choice. It is not only a duty to them, it is an -honour- to them. Dying by the hand of darkspawn isn't a punishment... in death sacrifice. That is the highest honour you can do. You go through the game being vigilant and then sacrificing yourself, so through the death you bring the war to victory. Loghain never understood that. While Grey Wardens are to do everything for victory, no matter the price, still changing their sacrilege into a punishment defiles their values.
That was my reading of events. My character would sooner die then let that happen. Ooops, she just might actually do that

Modifié par Lianaar, 18 novembre 2009 - 06:33 .

[LdyShayna]

After reading the books, I would like to have a chance to confront Loghain about what I consider his betrayal of Maric. However, my character would have no knowledge of those events, and I could never consign Alistair to the fate he has if I made that choice, so I guess I'll never get to see it. Ah, well.

[Helen0rz]

At least you started out as a Human Noble. I started out as City Elf on my first play through...then decided I want Alistair....and got my little heart broken when he dumped me. Since I wasn't a noble he totally turned me down when i suggest i should be his queen.

So for my first play through, i died. but i had to reload because, like you said, Alistair was gonna do the killing blow for me.

So this time around, Human noble all the way, even IF i have to watch him and Morrigan going at it. Seriously! if Alistair is so unwilling, well, if the developers made it seem like Alistair is unwilling, WHY ON EARTH OF THEY MAKE A SPECIAL CUTSCENE for it?!
and seriously, i think i like Alistair because of the guy who did the voice over...He had a different personality in Uncharted 2

[David Gaider]

Walina wrote...

I found it strange that it will be hard to convince Alistair to let Loghain die at his place, why ?
1) You can convince him to become king when he doesn't want to
2) You can convince him to sleep with Morrigan
3) You can ask him to join a threesome
4) You can convince him to let Zevran on the team
5) You can kill Isolde or anyone you and he will remain at your side (till he had enough though)

Come on, tell me why should it be harder to ask him let go of Loghain when you just manipulated him earlier ? ^^ Unless, he care more about revenge than the PC ? It will be so unlike him in my opinion

Then apparently you don't know him very well.

You can convince him to become King because him not wanting to be a King is based entirely on his self-esteem. He doesn't think he would be a good King. He doesn't think anyone would want him there. Is it surprising that someone he loves telling him he should be King after all might be something he'd consider?

You can convince him to sleep with Morrigan. Yes, but this has nothing to do with contravening his duty. He has no duty to NOT sleep with Morrigan. He never promised not to give her a baby, and while he doesn't like her she's never DONE anything to him. Chances are, even if you bring up the baby he'll only agree if he knows the ritual will save your life. Or SOMEONE'S life. He's not even concerned about his own.

You can convince him to join a threesome. Again, he's not celibate, or even a prude really. Twisting someone's rubber arm is not exactly a giant leap for his character.

You can convince him to let Zevran join the team. And why couldn't you? Zevran attacked you all, yes, but he didn't kill anyone in the party. If Zevran had, do you think Alistair would have been so eager? Hardly. He doesn't trust Zevran, but it's not as if Zevran killed Duncan or any of his friends.

He will remain at your side after killing Isolde or Connor, yes, but keep in mind the difference here: at some level he feels he owes Arl Eamon and is angry about being directly (or indirectly) responsible for the death of his wife or son -- but their deaths break no promise of his. It's not as if he didn't know something needed to be done in Redcliffe, he's simply very upset how it went down.

With Loghain, however, it's a different matter. He swore that the man would die. Loghain is responsible for the death of Duncan and all his friends in the Grey Wardens. He thinks the man is evil, and if anything his DUTY would be to keep him OUT of the Grey Wardens.

You think Alistair could be convinced because you want to think that. Alistair isn't spineless, but you're arguing that he is and should bend to your every whim because-- why? Because you're selfish? I get the desire behind it, but let's not mistake one thing for the other. Anyone saying they "know Alistair" and believe he would actually do such a thing is ignoring one of the most important things about him.

If you really want to change Alistair into someone else because that makes it more convenient to have your happy ending, I get it and I understand. But I know my character.

[The Angry One]

Dear God I'm agreeing with a writer for once.



*universe implodes*

[LdyShayna]

David Gaider wrote...
You can convince him to become King because him not wanting to be a King is based entirely on his self-esteem. He doesn't think he would be a good King. He doesn't think anyone would want him there. Is it surprising that someone he loves telling him he should be King after all might be something he'd consider?

Oh, hey.  I was going to ask about this.  Thanks for pre-empting answering, even if this wasn't your intention. 

You can convince him to join a threesome. Again, he's not celibate, or even a prude really. Twisting someone's rubber arm is not exactly a giant leap for his character.

Twisting....what?  Is this a euphemism? I only asked because the lamp post hing went over my head as well. 

My character just sat there and thought, "Why would I lick a lamp post in winter?  How monumentally stupid would that be?  Besides, Nan would probably have flayed me...and the lamp post...and anyone standing nearby that didn't stop me...and....   Wait, Alistair is looking at me expectantly.  I should answer."

[Yorleen]

David Gaider wrote...
You can convince him to join a threesome. Again, he's not celibate, or even a prude really. Twisting someone's rubber arm is not exactly a giant leap for his character.

On the one hand he acts romantic, and he even wants to wait before "going inside the tent" with the PC to be sure of his feelings even though she offers it... and on the other hand, eventually, a threesome with one complete "stranger" would be completely ok? Sorry but it seems quite contradictory to me.

[David Gaider]

Yorleen wrote...
On the one hand he acts romantic, and he even wants to wait before "going inside the tent" with the PC to be sure of his feelings even though she offers it... and on the other hand, eventually, a threesome with one complete "stranger" would be completely ok? Sorry but it seems quite contradictory to me.

My point is that he's not necessarily *opposed* to it. It's strange, sure, but it's not as if it's impossible to convince someone to do something that's simply outside of their box (and maybe possibly a little interesting). Accepting Loghain into the Grey Wardens and giving up his sworn revenge isn't outside of his box -- it's beyond the pale. Two completely different things.

And for LdyShayna: the term "twist my rubber arm" is not a euphamism. It's an idiom meaning "you don't need to do much convincing to get me to do something I'm inclined to do anyhow".

[Mage Dan]

Bromance all the way.

[LdyShayna]

David Gaider wrote...
And for LdyShayna: the term "twist my rubber arm" is not a euphamism. It's an idiom meaning "you don't need to do much convincing to get me to do something I'm inclined to do anyhow".

Thanks.

[AtreiyaN7]

Walina wrote...

Cheating is cheating, whenever you are ok with it, you will still feel some regrets, which will hunt you all your life and always asking yourself "wasn't it another way?".

You're talking about how Alistair "loved" Duncan, then I am sorry but he also madly in love with your PC so it's not logical that he can't accept Loghain and prefer to cheat on your PC. Another proof that the writers wanted to have an excuse for DAO 2.

You choose to accept to be cornered by Bioware writers, then fine by you. I will never accept it because it's totally useless since there are many ways to resolve the problem with ritual or not. Lot of people are admitting that the end of the game became really linear cause you can't really choose to get ride of all the nobles who got their ass saved by you!

That's completely ridiculous in my opinion. Alistair didn't "prefer" to cheat on the PC. Did you listen to his reaction when talking about Morrigan's offer? It is blatantly obvious that Alistair DOES NOT want to sleep with Morrigan. I imagine he'd rather have bamboo splinters driven under his fingernails rather than sleeping with Morrigan of his own free will. The PC has to convince him to do it, and nope, no regrets about doing it to save us both.

As for the Duncan issue, I agree with those who say that Duncan was like a father to him, and I don't have a problem with Alistair's reaction. Having experienced a personal loss of my own this year, I can attest to the fact that such a thing can leave you emotional and prone to being less than  rational in your decision-making.

I'm mostly over the whole consuming anger/regret/bitterness/sadness thing at this point, thankfully. On the whole, I think Alistair actually handled things better than I did IRL, given the trying circumstances of the characters. It's like a big, gigantic slap to the face when the man who basically murdered his father (figure) has the chance to receive what he considers a high honor. 

Why is impossible to believe that Alistair might let irrational anger take over, just once? I've done it myself. I've had my fair share of  irrational outbursts because I was still angry about a death in the family. Cut Alistair some slack over it; the guy was more even-tempered about things than I've been. I just think the fact that he's not perfect makes him more human, myself, but then I'm looking at it through the prism of having experienced loss as well.

** And to add to that: yeah, I'll go with what David Gaider says too. Alistair does take his promises/vows & duty very seriously, and he does have a spine. After all, if you push to hard he'll actually say he's not ready to take a visit to your tent (at some point). *chuckle*

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 18 novembre 2009 - 08:00 .

[Yorleen]

My point is that he's not necessarily *opposed* to it. It's strange,
sure, but it's not as if it's impossible to convince someone to do
something that's simply outside of their box (and maybe possibly a
little interesting). Accepting Loghain into the Grey Wardens and giving
up his sworn revenge isn't outside of his box -- it's beyond the pale.
Two completely different things.

I think I understand what you mean... And thinking of it, maybe after his first experience with the PC he's been made more curious about these things and as it is she who comes up with the idea after all, it doesn't sound that bad to him. I got the point?

Modifié par Yorleen, 18 novembre 2009 - 08:03 .

[Lianaar]

In the animation Sinbad there was a time when the "hero" had to decide, he leaves the task at hand, leaving his best friend to die (while he always said he will actually do that) or go back, let his best friend live with the woman he loved but be executed himself.

His love tells him: Go, flee. I can't lose you. I want you to live. I love you.

And he answers: But if I fled, could you still love me?



I feel the same way about it. The charm of Alistair lies in his firm believes and sense of duty. That is what my char loved in him. He would lose what Sophie love in him if he allowed himself to be convinced. He appears to be an insecure puppy but here and there it shines through that he is not only good in taking orders, but he has all the qualities of a leader. It would be quite sad for me to see him pushed into an obedient "good boy". But alas, tastes differ and some people find enjoyment in things I dislike. I much prefer mods that fit into the integrity of the already written personalities. It would always be interesting to see -new- npcs and joinable pcs. Maybe someone can make up a man that goes all happy ending without a twist in the personality (as I perceive it).