The interview seemed fine to me. It’s at least far better than that infamous interview with Bioware marketing which basically said insignificant details like having books in a library of all things is a waste of valuable processing power.
Bioware speaks out
Débuté par
Ebenezer
, mars 11 2011 11:33
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#52
Posté 11 mars 2011 - 12:19
Shinji Ex
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Plain & Simple... the game sucks deal with it! 
#53
Posté 11 mars 2011 - 12:20
RohanD
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Wait let's just look at this for a second because it's so awesome
Read that, just read it and let it sink in. Now remember this?
http://www.nowgamer....-dutys-audience
That's just one part of the awesome as well. So they actually thought about taking out MORE features. I love how he makes it sound like we should be greatful for getting the "needless complexity" they decided to leave in. Hey Laidlaw, why don't you just crap in a box and sell that for $60, that will take out all the needless complexity, it will make millions!
I don't feel it's a game that's been designed to appeal far and wide and so on. If it were, there were choices we could have made that would have taken it much, much further. We would have probably simplified down to a single character, maybe with companions; probably looked at doing some even deeper changes to inventory management, making sure that... You wouldn't want to confuse people with enchanting or anything complex like that.
Read that, just read it and let it sink in. Now remember this?
http://www.nowgamer....-dutys-audience
That's just one part of the awesome as well. So they actually thought about taking out MORE features. I love how he makes it sound like we should be greatful for getting the "needless complexity" they decided to leave in. Hey Laidlaw, why don't you just crap in a box and sell that for $60, that will take out all the needless complexity, it will make millions!
#54
Posté 11 mars 2011 - 12:22
ragnaven
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As I read the artical I simply just wanted to shake my head and sigh, as a gamer I love my stories. I am very much like Varric in that respect, but I just felt like they didn't care in this one. They could have followed this one up with a blight no problem, anyone that has read the novels for the dragon age world knows the Architect knew where every arch demon was buried, so do all the wardens.
His lack of concern for peoples issues with the story is rather depressing, and I am sorry to say this but if people didn't like the way DA:O was done then it's on them to feel left out. I have a friend who hated mass effect, but loved mass effect 2 so he got it on PS3 so he could control how the game was done.
With the frame narrative it would have been simple enough to do just that, don't want to play DA:O just have an option build your own tale. Then when the seeker scoffs over the whole Flemeth thing, and Varric asks "Do I need to tell you the tale of the Warden?" have a selection menu come up, with all the possible branch choices there, and have him gloss over them. It was really that simple.
I miss having a real map, and a real set of choices that just were not there in this game that were there in Origins. His argument that they were ousting overly complicated things was to general, I'd like him to back up that statement with what it was that was complicated? Ideally to me, I'd prefer the combat in this game, mixed with everything else from Origins, but if your going to stick with this action combat system then give me a block button.
His lack of concern for peoples issues with the story is rather depressing, and I am sorry to say this but if people didn't like the way DA:O was done then it's on them to feel left out. I have a friend who hated mass effect, but loved mass effect 2 so he got it on PS3 so he could control how the game was done.
With the frame narrative it would have been simple enough to do just that, don't want to play DA:O just have an option build your own tale. Then when the seeker scoffs over the whole Flemeth thing, and Varric asks "Do I need to tell you the tale of the Warden?" have a selection menu come up, with all the possible branch choices there, and have him gloss over them. It was really that simple.
I miss having a real map, and a real set of choices that just were not there in this game that were there in Origins. His argument that they were ousting overly complicated things was to general, I'd like him to back up that statement with what it was that was complicated? Ideally to me, I'd prefer the combat in this game, mixed with everything else from Origins, but if your going to stick with this action combat system then give me a block button.
#55
Posté 11 mars 2011 - 12:24
keyip
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chosef wrote...
Well, that is one of the main point of the crap they are getting. You just basically said(and even this interview confirms it) that the game is unfinished/half-assed. Then why isn't it half-priced? Not only does it literally have half the content in playing arrows, but they also cut corners to boot.
Rubbish. Pressed for time/rushed does not mean unfinished or half-assed, pressed for time is something that happens to most games and books and tv shows these days. DA:O was in development so long it was considered vaporware, that is not a luxary you can afford in any of the entertainment markets. Because of this some things get cut, some compromises are made but that's the real world.
Modifié par keyip, 11 mars 2011 - 12:25 .
#56
Posté 11 mars 2011 - 12:25
Brockololly
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Between this and the multiplayer comments.....*sigh*
Modifié par Brockololly, 11 mars 2011 - 12:29 .
#57
Posté 11 mars 2011 - 12:26
RohanD
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Some great replies in the comments
Murton wrote:
Not a great interview, why didn't you ask him if he felt they'd dumbed down the game too much and maybe that's why it wasn't as well received as Origins was? There were a couple of lines in the interview that made me think "what the hell are you talking about Laidlow? You ****ed up, just admit it and move on"
"Wow, this is just too different and I cannot handle it."
I'm not sure just how patronised to feel about this one. You said yourself that you believe that the bulk of the criticism stems from people expecting a more Origins-like experience or people hanging onto the ideals carried over from Baldur's Gate 2. I find it highly unlikely that these people "cannot handle it" more like, they don't like it and didn't want it. You knew long before development began what your fans like and your game design didn't follow that formula, instead you "streamlined" and created the answer to a question nobody really asked.
"We decided for Dragon Age II that we wanted a voice for the player fairly early on and so there was an obvious... Well, what would be the best system we have"
And having a voice means you have to remove the choice from the dialogue system? I'm reasonably sure that you could give us at least summarised lines to choose from in the same way as DA:O rather than the retarded anti-RPG method of selecting a mood. How am I supposed to roleplay my character if I have no idea what he's about to say? You already had the best system in place, and you abandoned it in your quest for increased accessibility, you messed up.
"Getting rid of Baldur's Gate is a terrible idea"
Yet that's exactly what has happened. Baldurs Gate not only had more in depth mechanics for RPG fans to sink their teeth into but also had a richer and more compelling world. You seem to have forgotten how to do all of the things that made you kings of the RPG genre, you got away with it with Mass Effect because it was a new franchise and could be pitched as a new breed of game, DA:O was pitched as a spiritual successor to Baldurs Gate and it had some elements of BG in there, elements which aren't present in its direct sequel DA2 and that, that is the source of the criticism you're seeing. DA2 doesn't feel like an RPG, doesn't feel like a Bioware game, it's just doesn't have that special spark that was present through BG, NWN, KOTOR and DA:O, and that's what people are upset about.
Yesterday Todd Howard your counterpart at Bethesda revealed that Skyrim was going to bring back the sense of discovery that made Morrowind feel special. To achieve this he says they're going to get away from the familiar feeling of Oblivion and the pointlessness of some of its locations by making lots of things actually worth discovering and exploring. Hopefully you'll come to a similar realisation when you start on DA3 and try to recapture some of the magic that you let go of while making DA2 otherwise I think you can look forward to some pretty mediocre review scores and slightly harsher criticism from fans
Ubergine wrote:
Laidlaw's assertion that Mass Effect 2 was not a big influence on DA2 is not credible at all. They've clearly come up with a playbook for the transition from ME to ME2 and attempted to apply the same principles to DA2. It's simply in the case of DA2 it's backfiring.
ME2 removed a swathe of elements from ME and replaced them with only two things: a polished combat model and some truly great character writing. You could add in improved graphics to that but I felt the design work in ME2 became a little more vanilla in places as a consequence. So many reviews for ME2 started "You'll miss these features for ten minutes then forget about them." and was pretty much right.
Dragon Age Origins however, was a game only looking for improvement in two areas: better graphics, and a better explanation of the combat to new players. I am not a Baldur's Gate veteran or of all these other Bioware games over the years, and it took me the first 50 hours of the game to get a grip on the combat. Mass Effect had a similar problem which is why they thankfully added a great tutorial to ME2.
Having suffered to learn how to play Dragon Age, to learn from the demo that the combat has been nerfed into a "mash win button to win!" model... well, that's one thing which may now be fixed in a patch from what I've read, but what won't be fixed is what's been taken away. Reviews have not described great character writing. Party customisation has been nerfed, not to serve any audience desire but to make the game cheaper to produce (ie no new armour art for each character), the reuse of very limited environments again to save money.
Reviews have said - reviews from sites like Eurogamer, heavily shrouded by Dragon Age 2 advertising I might add - that the writing overall bears reward, which is the greatest plus in my mind, but the demo you guys released showed horribly boring environment design, aggravatingly frequent and horribly acted and written cut scenes, a taste of your Win Button combat system (which reviews do say gets better as you progress... I'm not sold on it) and to add insult locked off the inventory system, rendering the compulsive loot-gathering RPG fans often love not a part of your sales pitch. Maybe you did that to lend the spotlight to the areas you thought "improved" but, well, it just shone a light on stuff I simply don't want.
I went from being a day one cert to being very unsure I'll drop big money on DA2, based on the demo and all the things you've talked up as "improvements" without thinking of who you were improving them for. Making it cheaper to produce obviously improves it for YOU, I'm not sure what we get out of it. Applying principles which make a third-person shooter better to a party-based rpg doesn't fall into my range of features and benefits.
I hope DA2 finds an audience, having alienated a chunk of it's original audience. I think I'll be waiting until there's at least a auto-attack patch for the 360 version before considering buying.
Murton wrote:
Not a great interview, why didn't you ask him if he felt they'd dumbed down the game too much and maybe that's why it wasn't as well received as Origins was? There were a couple of lines in the interview that made me think "what the hell are you talking about Laidlow? You ****ed up, just admit it and move on"
"Wow, this is just too different and I cannot handle it."
I'm not sure just how patronised to feel about this one. You said yourself that you believe that the bulk of the criticism stems from people expecting a more Origins-like experience or people hanging onto the ideals carried over from Baldur's Gate 2. I find it highly unlikely that these people "cannot handle it" more like, they don't like it and didn't want it. You knew long before development began what your fans like and your game design didn't follow that formula, instead you "streamlined" and created the answer to a question nobody really asked.
"We decided for Dragon Age II that we wanted a voice for the player fairly early on and so there was an obvious... Well, what would be the best system we have"
And having a voice means you have to remove the choice from the dialogue system? I'm reasonably sure that you could give us at least summarised lines to choose from in the same way as DA:O rather than the retarded anti-RPG method of selecting a mood. How am I supposed to roleplay my character if I have no idea what he's about to say? You already had the best system in place, and you abandoned it in your quest for increased accessibility, you messed up.
"Getting rid of Baldur's Gate is a terrible idea"
Yet that's exactly what has happened. Baldurs Gate not only had more in depth mechanics for RPG fans to sink their teeth into but also had a richer and more compelling world. You seem to have forgotten how to do all of the things that made you kings of the RPG genre, you got away with it with Mass Effect because it was a new franchise and could be pitched as a new breed of game, DA:O was pitched as a spiritual successor to Baldurs Gate and it had some elements of BG in there, elements which aren't present in its direct sequel DA2 and that, that is the source of the criticism you're seeing. DA2 doesn't feel like an RPG, doesn't feel like a Bioware game, it's just doesn't have that special spark that was present through BG, NWN, KOTOR and DA:O, and that's what people are upset about.
Yesterday Todd Howard your counterpart at Bethesda revealed that Skyrim was going to bring back the sense of discovery that made Morrowind feel special. To achieve this he says they're going to get away from the familiar feeling of Oblivion and the pointlessness of some of its locations by making lots of things actually worth discovering and exploring. Hopefully you'll come to a similar realisation when you start on DA3 and try to recapture some of the magic that you let go of while making DA2 otherwise I think you can look forward to some pretty mediocre review scores and slightly harsher criticism from fans
Ubergine wrote:
Laidlaw's assertion that Mass Effect 2 was not a big influence on DA2 is not credible at all. They've clearly come up with a playbook for the transition from ME to ME2 and attempted to apply the same principles to DA2. It's simply in the case of DA2 it's backfiring.
ME2 removed a swathe of elements from ME and replaced them with only two things: a polished combat model and some truly great character writing. You could add in improved graphics to that but I felt the design work in ME2 became a little more vanilla in places as a consequence. So many reviews for ME2 started "You'll miss these features for ten minutes then forget about them." and was pretty much right.
Dragon Age Origins however, was a game only looking for improvement in two areas: better graphics, and a better explanation of the combat to new players. I am not a Baldur's Gate veteran or of all these other Bioware games over the years, and it took me the first 50 hours of the game to get a grip on the combat. Mass Effect had a similar problem which is why they thankfully added a great tutorial to ME2.
Having suffered to learn how to play Dragon Age, to learn from the demo that the combat has been nerfed into a "mash win button to win!" model... well, that's one thing which may now be fixed in a patch from what I've read, but what won't be fixed is what's been taken away. Reviews have not described great character writing. Party customisation has been nerfed, not to serve any audience desire but to make the game cheaper to produce (ie no new armour art for each character), the reuse of very limited environments again to save money.
Reviews have said - reviews from sites like Eurogamer, heavily shrouded by Dragon Age 2 advertising I might add - that the writing overall bears reward, which is the greatest plus in my mind, but the demo you guys released showed horribly boring environment design, aggravatingly frequent and horribly acted and written cut scenes, a taste of your Win Button combat system (which reviews do say gets better as you progress... I'm not sold on it) and to add insult locked off the inventory system, rendering the compulsive loot-gathering RPG fans often love not a part of your sales pitch. Maybe you did that to lend the spotlight to the areas you thought "improved" but, well, it just shone a light on stuff I simply don't want.
I went from being a day one cert to being very unsure I'll drop big money on DA2, based on the demo and all the things you've talked up as "improvements" without thinking of who you were improving them for. Making it cheaper to produce obviously improves it for YOU, I'm not sure what we get out of it. Applying principles which make a third-person shooter better to a party-based rpg doesn't fall into my range of features and benefits.
I hope DA2 finds an audience, having alienated a chunk of it's original audience. I think I'll be waiting until there's at least a auto-attack patch for the 360 version before considering buying.
#58
Posté 11 mars 2011 - 12:27
ragnaven
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I'll agree with Chosef there, when my entire last level of the game looks like the making of a CGI movie because for some reason my copy does not have textures and colors put in for the last fight someone missed something somewhere, and not in a good way. I was wondering if Kirkwall was being invaded by little grey men.
#59
Posté 11 mars 2011 - 12:29
nisallik
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Perfect-Kenshin wrote...
Makes me feel sorry for all the people who rushed to recomplete Origins shortly before DA2 came out, only for all their efforts to be utterly meaningless.17thknight wrote...
Bundin wrote...
There are some decent explanations inthere, like why importing saves has little consequence: we don't want to alienate non-Origins players (money) and it would feel tacked on. The second one is fine with me to be honest. ME2 had some of those cameos that didn't add anything to the story and seemed very out of place.
It also confirms the "we were rushed" comment that's been posted elsewhere. Apparently it was making more different dungeon maps or add more content. I'd expect Bioware to take the time to do both properly but apparently there were strict constraints (can't have DA2 take too long to make, people might forget all about Origins and less money would be made).
I hope that after ME2 and DA2, their followups will be less "streamlined" by the money-minded management.
Yeah, it really strongly verifies how brutally rushed this game was. It's far below Bioware's normal quality.
However, in reference to your point about imports, I really wish they would have simply ignored it completely. There's no reason the two games need to cross over at all. This could have been a completely different story, utterly unrelated to Origins. Which would have been fine, but once that's decided, trying to shove Origins back into it is going to feel hamfisted.
Why? I had fun replaying Origins and I love the snippets of conversation and small quests you receieve. I guess I didn't expect as much from the import because it was in an entirely different country.
#60
Posté 11 mars 2011 - 12:31
iampool
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I've just read it, and it takes all my hopes away. Clearly the team really liked DA2, and won't change much in the next one, which sucks.
Mike was very clear at pointing they care more for the new users who got bored in origins and the ones didn't even try it, than the ones who really liked it and wanted some changes but not a general dumbed down game.
Anyways, this sucks for me, im not a hater, im just really sad, da2 was kind of boring to me, and its not just the shameless repetition of maps.
Mike was very clear at pointing they care more for the new users who got bored in origins and the ones didn't even try it, than the ones who really liked it and wanted some changes but not a general dumbed down game.
Anyways, this sucks for me, im not a hater, im just really sad, da2 was kind of boring to me, and its not just the shameless repetition of maps.
#61
Posté 11 mars 2011 - 12:32
FDrage
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Rykoth wrote...
The interview is fine. I wish people who didn't like DA2 would get their heads out of their arses and think that maybe just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's a bad game as a fact. It's an opinion.
Sure, the reuse of areas is annoying. But when you have a deadline, which is probably what they had... I'll take content any day over new maps that seldom get used.
And yes, the majority of anti-DA2ers ARE mad and throwing tantrums that this isn't Origins 2.
.... guess what, I'm sure DA3 won't be Origins 3 either.
The same way goes as well for those people that like the game ... it is an opinion and not a fact
. It just seems that tooo often people on both sides forget that.Calling someones opinion who doesn't like it "maqd and trantrum" is way to go to convince people. I just seen plenty of "mad and trandum" from people who thing "Their" game is "unfairly critizied" when it is an "awesome and fantastic game", both are just opinions and not liking one side doesn't mean they are wrong.
Btw .. cookies anyone? I suggest the raspberry and white chocholcate ones.
#62
Posté 11 mars 2011 - 12:33
Wulfram
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Veracruz wrote...
But DA II has changes based on feedback from DAO so DA III should follow that path too.
DA II has changes based on a segment of the feedback which they chose to listen too.
People say that the PC version of DA:O is better than the console version. So DA2 scraps the PC specific features? Seems an odd way of responding.
#63
Posté 11 mars 2011 - 12:33
ejoslin
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Do they really not think that DAO appealed to a huge audience? How many awards must a game win, how well must it sell, before they realize that it DOES? DAO did/does appeal to a very large audience. If the DLCs didn't sell as well as expected, that's because the DLCs moved away from DAO's style and depth.
DAO's dialog system honestly wasn't broken. I actually don't mind the dialog wheel, I don't mind the voiced protagonist, I DO mind not being able to talk to my companions and weird things that come from that and the time skips.
DAO's dialog system honestly wasn't broken. I actually don't mind the dialog wheel, I don't mind the voiced protagonist, I DO mind not being able to talk to my companions and weird things that come from that and the time skips.
#64
Posté 11 mars 2011 - 12:36
electroban
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Having some Mass Effect 2 principles could of worked with Dragon Agve 2. Unfortunatley the stripped down levels, the stripped down inventories, the stripped down story and character depth is what makes it a worse game than Dragon Age Origins. Throw in whatever dialgoue wheels you want. The game has fallen because it's not epic enough, there is no journey like you had in Oriigns. Re-visiting the same locales for an RPG is a disgrace especially when it's not even being deemed as a sandbox RPG. Im ery sorry this game has fallen so low in everyones expectations.
A wizard should know better
A wizard should know better
#65
Posté 11 mars 2011 - 12:38
Malja
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ejoslin wrote...
Do they really not think that DAO appealed to a huge audience? How many awards must a game win, how well must it sell, before they realize that it DOES? DAO did/does appeal to a very large audience. If the DLCs didn't sell as well as expected, that's because the DLCs moved away from DAO's style and depth.
DAO's dialog system honestly wasn't broken. I actually don't mind the dialog wheel, I don't mind the voiced protagonist, I DO mind not being able to talk to my companions and weird things that come from that and the time skips.
I concur. Especially the last part. Something we won't be seeing a fix on.
#66
Posté 11 mars 2011 - 12:38
Russalka
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Am I a rabid fan for not minding this interview?
#67
Posté 11 mars 2011 - 12:39
Clammo
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No Mike, it isn't fear of change, please stop preaching that dogmatic tired old mantra. The game's too stripped down, blatantly rushed and seemingly aimed to appeal to an audience that's too young to legally buy it, in a vain effort to be "awesome".
#68
Posté 11 mars 2011 - 12:40
Killyox the Defender
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chosef wrote...
"the re-use of the levels is something we knew was a bit of a risk, but we wanted to make sure there was more content rather than less, so re-using some of the spaces and coming to them again was certainly one we were careful about and tried to re-use as artfully as we could"
He is kidding right? That interview has to be fake. "We artfully moved a crate... slightly - ENJOY YOUR VARIETY"
It's true, i saw 1 underground zone like 5 times, and rest of the zones were reused as many times as well.
#69
Posté 11 mars 2011 - 12:40
chosef
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This is all from the point of view of the developer.keyip wrote...
chosef wrote...
Well, that is one of the main point of the crap they are getting. You just basically said(and even this interview confirms it) that the game is unfinished/half-assed. Then why isn't it half-priced? Not only does it literally have half the content in playing arrows, but they also cut corners to boot.
Rubbish. Pressed for time/rushed does not mean unfinished or half-assed, pressed for time is something that happens to most games and books and tv shows these days. DA:O was in development so long it was considered vaporware, that is not a luxary you can afford in any of the entertainment markets. Because of this some things get cut, some compromises are made but that's the real world.
Here we are talking about the customers. OK. Imagine we are not talking about a video game here. Let's say it's some other service. For instance you check out a local ISP and you see $30 for 20mbps no transfer cap. YOu sign up and it's all fine. 3 months later the speed goes down to 10mbps and you get a cap of 100GB/month. You go to them and they say - sorry but we are overworked, some of our servers broke and the investors won't give us money to buy new ones, besides you DON'T REALLY NEED such a fast internet. And why would you want more than 200GB per month - you know downloading stuff is illegal anyway, right? And yeah - we are keeping the price. It's still $30 month. DEAL WITH IT.
How long do you think this ISP will exist? The problem with the gaming market is that the majority of the consumers are too young to actually stand for their rights which is added to the fandom factor which may blind some people.
There is nothing more normal than people demanding quality from a product and having high standards. Except in the gaming industry, it seems.
english is my third language, sorry if that wasn't an easy read.
Modifié par chosef, 11 mars 2011 - 12:43 .
#70
Posté 11 mars 2011 - 12:41
Killyox the Defender
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Lack of free camera is VERY annoying for me and i got no idea why did they remove it i literally HATE CURRENT CAMERA.
#71
Posté 11 mars 2011 - 12:42
chosef
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and i hope it's not a double-post again:
I hoped for too much
I hoped for too much
Modifié par chosef, 11 mars 2011 - 12:42 .
#72
Posté 11 mars 2011 - 12:42
VanTesla
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Seblun wrote...
The game is fine, they are making a lot of money.
The 1% of PC Elitist are complaining that it changed, whatevs.
Making alot of money does not make a game fine...
Also you shouldn't give random statistics that you dont no, it makes you look ignorant. People on the consoles have some problems as well. I am not trying to bash by the way and I apologize if my comment comes off a bit rude.
#73
Posté 11 mars 2011 - 12:45
Malja
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chosef wrote...
and i hope it's not a double-post again:
I hoped for too much
A lot of us did. :/ And not everyone wanted a DAO2 in the process.
#74
Posté 11 mars 2011 - 12:45
17thknight
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chosef wrote...
english is my third language, sorry if that wasn't an easy read.
You have clearer English than half the kids in my college.
#75
Posté 11 mars 2011 - 12:46
VanTesla
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Clammo wrote...
No Mike, it isn't fear of change, please stop preaching that dogmatic tired old mantra. The game's too stripped down, blatantly rushed and seemingly aimed to appeal to an audience that's too young to legally buy it, in a vain effort to be "awesome".
Quote for truth. Also they lower the difficulty and lessen the tactics to make it more mindless button mashing in my opinion...
